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Aetolian Economics
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This discussion was created from comments split from: So, Questing..
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I have already been forced to buy a 5 dollar package just to get armor/curatives as well as having to beg from citymates for gold which is kinda depressing.
Half the quest prompts dont work or activate, and even less have quest prompts to help.
It makes me a very sad frog.
Why are gold drops so minimal here, it makes it somewhat difficult?
I am assuming once my fishing is leveled up I will be better at earning gold, but getting to that point.
Frog Struggles.
Edit: I should probably add that I do most of my questing in the games down-hours. It helps.
Gold-purchased cryptic chests got removed as a result. Without anything anchoring the value of gold, inflation went bonkers. Credits became impossible for the average player to purchase since powerbashers were gobbling them up for like 20k each. The end result was nerfing the amount of gold generated through bashing; this lessened the disparity between powerbashers and the average player because, even though it's also harder for the average player to make gold now, the difference between the two player types is no longer in the millions-per-day.
tl;dr: blame tryhards they ruin everything
As a sub end-game player, I dont produce that much gold, and I feel like that might have contributed to a better solution rather than making it more difficult for everyone between the levels of 20-99, I imagine I am not the only one who faces this.
I just seem to find solution x punishing 99 percent because of 1 percent to be kinda drastic.
Frog Confusion.
As it stands I can bash for snakes in the pit at 5 gold a pop, making a few hundred gold, thats a couple pills, but I spend 50 pills hunting there due to afflictions/healing.
It really discourages hunting.
I have had to ask on three occasions for gold from Citymates or have things donated from a City leader because of this.
The general response is, we will bash/help you to endgame because its not fun for players beneath that threshold, which then instills the mentality that the game is balanced around endgame and not focused on the rest of the players who are not, whilst I understand its easy to get there, it really neuters it being an achievement and moreso makes it a requirement.
While the powerbashing issue prompted the changes, IIRC another reason was to create an actual IC economy. Gold, curatives, comms, etc were all more or less unlimited. The only real reason to have tradeskills back then was for your own convenience/enjoyment. Making everything more scarce while limiting the gold supply made gold and tradeskills actually relevant. I wouldn't say the intent behind the change was to punish people (despite my facetious tl;dr), it was to create/stimulate an actual economy. If everyone could easily afford everything then there's not really any real economy.
I personally don't like caps on rewards because I think performance should be rewarded. IMO those who spend more time/effort grinding out gold should have more of it than those who don't. That's just my personal viewpoint though.
With the gauntlet ylem nerf gold could probably be increased bashing side, because as it stands the gold flow IN is busted which means price has to drop or stuff gets given away free...
I really do enjoy the open door policy of the administration and volunteers here, it allows us alot of insight.
Happy Frog again.
With the new changes to a singular curing system that focuses heavily on mass production through the use of ice/ash/gold/silver (each thing on average running for 500-750 gold apiece)... gold having become harder to obtain makes it more punishing to new players to stock themselves.
While everyone just says "Go questing or fishing" that isn't a wholly acceptable solution due to the mere fact that quests are finite and on hard static timers, fishing is only beneficial if you spend the 100 credits and the following weeks performing thr quests to obtain transcendence in said skill. Sure, a person on a good run can net about 6k... that's about 12 pieces of ice, which will only gain you about 480 pills. For a roleplayer, this isn't a big deal. For a combatant/hunter, this is a huge deal and makes it super costly to do anything active.
Yes, autobashing is a thing and there are people like myself who do have gold routes in bashing scripted. I could just as easily script questing and become a "tryhard" for that and get all of that nerfed as well, but I don't think thats the answer.
The answer is I think we need to look at the comm prices as a whole compared to the collective ways one can gain gold outside of direct credit buying/selling.. ie increase gold drops through hunting by 50-75%, lower the quest reset timers, increase the payout of ylem mist gauntlets, increase gold payout of fishing. For most players, they'll still spend their gold on curatives if they're actively doing something beyond role-playing. Even if they are a crafter, they're still spending more time crafting (and doing what they enjoy) up a plethora of shirts, bras, and loincloths, than they would be having to stare at their screen and grind quests that could probably still be on their reset timer.
Lastly, if the concern of admins is how much gold is in the game and how easily it is to make gold... mayhaps the solution is to add more gold sinks in the game that players actually want. Not these garbage ass prizebags that give you shit-for-dick for 20-75k.
Less meme-y, comm stock market, housing improvements, haven improvements (turn them into a physical location on prime? Idk they need some love), more gambling, direct buy for chocolates/other buffs since they're such Staples now, have a "black market" with rolling retired style scrolls/etc. for auction or sale?
Gold is an issue but I have to say compared to prior to the changes implemented, there really wasn't a real economy in the game. Now I think that economy is paying off. Being a merchant is actually an avenue to gold whereas before it may as well haave been a cosmetic flair for how little it effected ones ability to generate gold.
That said there's still a huge discrepancy between newer players and what they can get and players who accumulated wealth prior to all those changes. These changes have forced players to work together more in order to make gold. For example, me, I'd be dirt poor if I didn't ban together with other players to accumulate wealth. I also would be in a weak faction if I didn't spread my wealth around by investing it in other players (give away gold/curatives for any reason).
It's very hard currently to pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you're new and it's probably really frustrating to just hear, 'oh I make gold from questing, it's possible,' especially when it's coming from players who have been playing this game for years and have the luxury of knowledge and an attitude of, 'I figured it out, you should be able to as well.' Personally, I'd like to eliminate that response because it's just not a reality anymore.
TLDR - You're right, quests are ambiguous even if there is gold there to be found. I think the solution is less on figure out the quests and instead work with other players to grow wealth as a group.
For merchants, the changes to gold drops as well as the curing has certainly made things pick up (at least from what I've noticed). It feels like quite a chore to stay on top of demands when it comes to curatives, but it is lucrative. I doubt I'd be able to keep it up without balance the prices against how much time I feel like spending with harvesting, though. If I lower the prices even more, the stock would run low and I'd be stuck with doing nothing but harvesting for a good while. At the same time, I understand people want/need pills at a reasonable rate. It's tricky. I think I've just recently reached a point where I'm comfortable experimenting with that balance.
It might be easier to assist an apothecary and get good deals by handing over some needed corpses in exchange for better or even free cures, I don't know. I know there are a lot of apothecaries who don't mind making cures if you simply bring them corpses. Sometimes I just hand out cures to people to be nice, because I know hunting can suck. It would be nice if there was a way for hunters to contribute for herbalist stuff too, maybe. Not sure if that would make a difference.
At the same time, the changes were made in order to stimulate the economy. Perhaps we could add a way to use gold to influence other things in the game? Village needs donations in order to renovate something, or hire protection, or increase production/extraction of resources for a day/fraction of a day? Donations would put you and your organizations in good favor with the people there. It might not mean anything mechanically, but reputation-wise,and the gold would disappear.
The merchant system is meant to function as a way for villages to grow and improve in a manner that tells a story. The goal of the merchant is to first grow their personal wealth and then second build up their local community. A successful merchant will rise up in the community, eventually taking on a mayoral role to their town, retiring from the merchant lifestyle.
Modes of operation:
- Business is flowing
- Contract of Exclusivity: When a contract of exclusivity is established, the merchant will cease doing business with all other factions (exception to citiless rogues). It will not buy, sell or poll for political information for any other city. The merchant’s business model values sales over loyalty. If at any time business is stagnant or failing, the merchant will cease operating under its exclusivity contract.
- Business is stagnant
- Business is failing
- Business is booming
Political PollingMerchants will buy and sell commodities as well as serve as a nonpartisan political poll. Commodities will be purchased at a -10% to average global prices and sold a +10% global price. The merchant will also act as a political sounding board, polling for approval on the governing council of cities they hold contract with. If a city does not hold a contract, the merchant will attempt to establish one with any citizen attempting business. If there is no contract, the merchant will not purchase commodities or poll for information. An exception is made to citiless rogues, the merchant will always attempt to do business with them.
Ruling councils of cities can establish contracts with the merchant for the sum of 500,000 gold. This unlocks commodity trade for their citizens and provides them the possibility of polling data that will be gathered throughout the course of a year in which contracts are binding. The merchant will also make offer to a contract of exclusivity, this priced at 1,000,000 gold.
If the merchant’s commodity stock remains empty for a season it will open up trade to purchase from anyone, regardless of state of contract.
When the merchant’s purse drops below 10,000 gold, it will cease paying out for anything. Instead offering up its wares and asking for angel investments.
When the merchant is sitting on 3,000,000 gold or more, it will expand its business by purchasing property in its home village and reducing its personal revenue by 2,500,000 gold.
In addition to selling commodities this merchant will conduct political polls on the ruling council member for any city it is currently in contract with. Data will only be obtained from citizens of the city being polled and not be reported until eight polls have been taken. Data taken in the previous year will be considered outdated, and never reflected in current year data.
In order to conduct polls, the merchant will pay 300 gold to individuals in exchange for a yes/no answer on their approval of a city councilman. The merchant will only pay once per year, per city councilman poll. The merchant will poll councilman randomly until an individual has responded on each.
Polling data can be purchased by anyone and will look like: 'Xenia's approval rating is 20%'.
Merchant Endgame
When the merchant has expanded its business five times, it will begin making moves towards gaining notability in their village through investing into its community. Business booming conditions will no longer be expanding the business and instead on building infrastructure in the village. When the merchant has provided five village improvements it will be named the mayor or some other noteworthy title, retiring from life as a merchant, thus, freeing up business for a new merchant to emerge from some other village.
Valkyrior System
Ideas for gold sinks that were mentioned by handfuls of players from the PLETHORA of threads we have regarding said gold sinks (yes, players have spoken about this countless times but it seems that gold sinks are such low hanging fruit that Isaac Newton never would have discovered what gravity was because he could have just picked said fruit while laying down)
Minipet fights (a derivative and thought process from Neopets PetPet battles (shut up, you all played it at some point)):
Introduce stats into the minipets: Str/Con/Speed/Dex
Str (obvious) determines how hard you hit
Con (obvious) determines how much you can tank
Speed determines how often you hit (this would have a direct correlation with strength. The faster you strike, the less damage you do and vice-versa)
Dex (obvious) determines your chance to dodge/counter-attack.
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Hell, there's an entire thread dedicated precisely to this notion: http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/2422/what-would-you-spend-gold-on/p1
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Maybe fix the prize bags and make them better quality. As I previous said, paying 20-75k for shit-for-dick prizes is a disgrace and a spit in the face to the players. You pay 75k and get one item that probably is going to be a bullseye/phoenix heart? What a joke.
Note: Just this thread on ideas on how to fix THIS primary glaringly disappointing issue.
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What with the whole Enorian thing that happened recently, it's pretty established that the org will be screwed when it happens. Comms aren't being generated at a rate equal to the amount being used. Nowhere near equal. Even if you were to have exclusive control over specific resources (ash/ice/gold/silver), the amount necessary to maintain for the current population demands that more people get harvesting just so they can make pills without ash, or more Ash/Ice flow so that the few active pill makers can supply the entire market.
Gold is all well and good, and I can make about 10k in about an hour if I wasn't paying attention (mind you, this is higher level bashing areas), and upwards to 50k a day if I just fished all day, but at some point the comms market is going to crash and the org that crashes first is going to completely collapse as their stock of finished products runs dry.
1st: Quantity of Pills will decrease, so players like Trikal (the combat heavy sorts) will find themselves unable to participate in as much combat unless they can fill their caches elsewhere.
2nd: Prices shoot up higher. When your city runs out of cloth, or wood, or gold, etc, prices are going to skyrocket because the costs of those resources are going to go up higher. That'll make the gold situation even worse, because when something that cost 500 gold is suddenly 2000 gold.. well, speaks for itself.
3rd: Extortion. When a city runs out of Ash, they will be forced to start bothering the other cities. Those cities have no obligation to the city in need, and if they do give up their stock, it'll be at extreme prices. After all, when they run out, they'll be in the same situation. At worst, the city is denied aid and forced to flounder. At best, they are charged absolutely ridiculous prices that could bring the threat of bankruptcy on the city (though, I'm no treasurer so I have no idea what the gold situation is in each of the cities. This is just speculation.)
So.. basically.. the Comm situation needs some form of change or attention. I'd like to keep things relatively affordable, but if the answer is effectively "Don't run out of comms", I'll be forced to just shoot the prices of my comms up to what they should really be, which is at best 10-50 gold shy of what the wilderness markets are. If I do that, prices will easily double, if not triple, for the vendors in my market. If they want to make any gold, anyway.
Valkyrior system
Still, either way, I'm presenting worst case scenario because I find it slightly frustrating seeing how bad the situation could get and having no idea what the future might hold. I like to plan, and I like structure, and I don't know if the goal is to run out for a comm revamp or if I need to prolong the inevitable. I'm lacking in direction.
Also, the sky is falling.
I have no real problem paying for curatives, but I worry about supply limits a bit, and if prices go up by 2-3x as @Satomi suggests, well then I wouldn't be able to supply myself and him and uhhh, most people are lazy. He wasn't going to do the work to get the gold as well. That gets prohibitively expensive to get good at fighting.
If memory serves, it's around 130 ash to fill a standard 2k cache full of every single pill. For @Trikal, it's about 400-ish Ash to fill his entire cache from 0. Even if they don't use every single pill in their cache, 2000 pills a day is still about 10 ash a day, just for him. That means that the game can sustain 2 Trikals with no loss. Maybe up to a third, before you start pulling ash out of the game and into the ether.
I'm not saying that we need to flood the market so that there is no resource fighting. I'm just saying that the amount needed to sustain the current population, and supply for any new people, is waaaaaaaaaaay more than the amount we can make with the current Ash supply. (and I know, I'm harping on Ash a lot, but that's only because it is probably the most important resource atm, beside Ice.)
It would take 2-4 herbalists to supply Trikal alone, without any Ash or Ice to boost their production.
Anyway, that's the extent of my preaching for the moment. Unless another comment sparks inspiration.