Praenomen (and related) Chat

Satomi

I can't add much on the combat standpoint, but I remember trying to use Praenomen when I didn't have a crown. I even had a combat AI at the time, though the class had been updated since then.

Couldn't ever get any pressure applied, so I threw my hands up in frustration, deskflipped, and immediately switched to Indorani because the class had no requirements for entry. Didn't need the rune for weapons, didn't need the EQ crown, and it was an aff class.

Hell, I should try to see if I can kill someone who isn't even fighting back as Cabbie without crown, but still.. Indorani > Praenomen sans Crown.

Edit: (wanted to again emphasize my support that you just play Indorani instead of Praenomen)

Seth

@Haven Don't worry, I kept looking for the endgame statpacks once I got Tekal only to find it changed, heh.

Varel

Endgame praenomen with crown is easily one of the top classes in the game for one v one. Without crown but with eq enhance its ok (I'd say much better off than a lot of other eq based classes). Without crown and enhance its fail. The only bad thing about praenomen one v one is trying to kill an afk shaman with berserking immunity and rebounding up. What do.

One v one is not most people's prefered avenue for combat though, and there are much better classes to play for teams. I would say that is a much bigger contributor to the lack of Praenomen combatants compared to say, Carnifex.

*Disclaimer: I don't actually play, I just log in to troll the sect when I'm bored. My understanding of the meta is probably very out of date.

Reux

Tedrunai said:

Why play Praenomen? Cause the class is fantastic, unique/interesting, and one of the strongest ones in the game that nets you... meh.

I'm not sure what you mean by heavy entry costs @Rhyot . It really just requires an equilibrium crown, same as any other eq-using class in the game. In fact it's probably the most cost-efficient class in the game since you're getting 3 subsets in one class, each having a different kill route though the core offense is similar.

tdlr; I disagree, heavier PvE / PvP investment than any other class in the game.

Prae is the only class in the game where the EQ crown doesn't also help the class bash. Speeding up mending isn't that great when one of the only saving points as a vamp is, even after all the nerfs, you're still able to tank well with artifacts.

In fact, it feels like there's a lot of investment Prae has to make artifact wise to get the most out of the class solely for PvE. Knuckles and shield. +bal enhancement instead of +eq. These aren't encouraged in PvP, even when you go Phreneses, because you can still use all the bonuses while swinging with a venom.

I both hate and love that I'm focusing on system building for vampire. I've wanted to try pvp as an aff class since getting smashed as a rookie zealot. Back in the day though, +bal was valid... for Bloodborn. Dex was also valid for damage Prae (it lined up really well with arti bastard), but I'm under the impression a lot went with Wise to get more affs.

I realize this is a PvP discussion, but this question made me a little ticked off. I want to PvP as a vamp because its aff routes and strategy makes sense to me. I like the division between undeath and vampire, and all the conflicting RP is brings to the game. I don't think it's particularly efficient or cheap though, if you take it seriously. It's a decent class for a not-invested player to take, as they're easy to pick up and be supportive in the group, but it has a paywall to take seriously that will always leave you feeling like the worst at at least one particular thing.

Toz

Indorani has to use decay to bash, which is +EQ. But they are +bal.

Reux

Toz said:

Indorani has to use decay to bash, which is +EQ. But they are +bal.

Bone dagga that bad eh?

Edit
Luminaries get shock if you go +2eq. It used to be weird back in the day because of angel empathy+drain/power cycles, but shock is really fast and painful now. I'm also not under the impression it's encouraged - you're supposed to go crown + enh bal with a buckler at endgame+. I wanted to test +2eq with... whatever the shield is that matches, to see if the damage spike matters, but the conflict isn't nearly as prominent.

Indorani get bone dagga. I've never been one, and I've heard ups and downs regarding using the ability, but no one is vocal enough for me to think its still a problem.

Any other conflicts? None of the other issues like this come to mind.

Aishia

One of the big reasons crown exists is just because aff classes/pure eq often have a narrower window of things they can improve or add to. Other classes often have like, weapon runes, cutting runes, blunt runes and versatility with weapon stats. I know this doesn't hold universally true but still~

Satomi

The only problem with Indorani and Bone Daggers vs. Decay is that Decay damage got buffed universally (My cabalist bashes for 1680-ish with full wise(int) build, including starchart) and my Indorani does the same amount of damage. No amount of stat dumping into Dex (which would drop my survivability as Indorani while bashing significantly) can ever come close to what I can get by just having moderate Int and Con focus. I think the highest I ever got at 16 dex was like.. 1400 dmg? I can test it when I get home if you guys want.

Lehar

With the recent buffs to smite, lightning(what I believe you're trying to say, not 'shock') is actually worse than smite. With EQ+, crown and more int I still did more damage with smite and less strength, from my testing. 

However, if you want to get into the realm of needing artifacts to buff your bashing damage, please see Luminary. Still slow, still single hit, still not that great. Better after buffs but I'd take a large number of classes over it, even with Angel empathy.

Reux

Lehar said:

However, if you want to get into the realm of needing artifacts to buff your bashing damage, please see Luminary. Still slow, still single hit, still not that great. Better after buffs but I'd take a large number of classes over it, even with Angel empathy.

Yah, stat rune to buff smite is kinda suck when you can't really use smite in typical pvp. Maybe group, but not so much 1v1. You're still encouraged to get an arti shield though, and taking +bal doesn't harm your pvp/pve with or without crown - you adjust your shield to match to your chasten. Regardless, your endgame in both directions is the same: +bal, crown, buckler, mace, add icing for more efficiency.

I just can't speak for bone dagga; I don't want to play the class. The attack's existence is still more than Prae get, and should be easier to liaison into conformity.

Edit

Teradrim were the last example, and their fix was easy; you can switch your attack's consumed balance with a rune. It's a rune that's easy to switch. I don't know enough about their combat to explain or justify +2eq, but they also have an answer.

Toz

Mage: arti shield, that arti for crystals, magic_potence, actually need MANA help potentially
Shaman: tank arties, WP artifact, int to make zap-out viable
Lum: idk
Vamp: weapon rune, blood arti, they scale on bal stats (STR to pressure HP/bash, dex for to-hit, con)

Idk EQ classes seem universally more expensive- and no class NEEDS a weapon rune to compete. But EQ classes NEED a crown. If you disagree pls neutral balance for a month.

Emir

An argument could be made for lots of classes needing artifacts to maximize pve efficiency and maxing pvp efficiency. Sentinel and Templar are 2 good examples (maybe Syssin as a third?). Agile statpack is hands down better than Athletic for PvP due to High Dexterity and higher Int, but it has abysmal Str meaning sub par bashing. If they went Athletic, they would suffer very low int, and if you think that's not a relevant PvP stat for either of those classes I invite you to fight my Scio or Eliadon's Ascendril, or any Indorani spamming adder. Adder does flat bleeding, meaning it punishes low Int statpacks much more than neutral/high int statpacks. Muddled has a flat mana cost, and the bleeding from Spike spells will cause a very similar effect.

The solution to this? Buy an artifact to allow for statpack swapping.

Traditional EQ/Int based classes have the advantage here because their PvP statpacks line up with their PvE statpacks.

Fezzix

Emir said:

An argument could be made for lots of classes needing artifacts to maximize pve efficiency and maxing pvp efficiency. Sentinel and Templar are 2 good examples (maybe Syssin as a third?). Agile statpack is hands down better than Athletic for PvP due to High Dexterity and higher Int, but it has abysmal Str meaning sub par bashing. If they went Athletic, they would suffer very low int, and if you think that's not a relevant PvP stat for either of those classes I invite you to fight my Scio or Eliadon's Ascendril, or any Indorani spamming adder. Adder does flat bleeding, meaning it punishes low Int statpacks much more than neutral/high int statpacks. Muddled has a flat mana cost, and the bleeding from Spike spells will cause a very similar effect.

The solution to this? Buy an artifact to allow for statpack swapping.

Traditional EQ/Int based classes have the advantage here because their PvP statpacks line up with their PvE statpacks.

Weapon runes are negligible for dstab speeds on a dirk, and flay is a flat 2 second balance cost, unmodded. Syssin really only needs your standard defense artifacts (shield, sip, con, enhance, etc), but that's no different from any other given class, really. There isn't much investment involved in playing syssin, especially since they put Discernment in Assassination so we no longer have to trans Vision or keep an Eye of Lanos.

Syssin have no offensive artifacts that help us, unless you want to try working with the corrosion fangs. Charm is only useful for isolating people from groups or getting them to compromise themselves for a clever gank, and the same is true for the phaselock tuning fork.

And I second the Agile statpack being superior for 1v1, especially as syssin. No mana means no hypnosis, and I come very close to being dry when in longer fights against mage.

Emir

I was mainly referring to the bashing arguments. There are quite a few classes who do not PK as optimal in stat packs that are optimal for bashing and require artifacts to counter act that (scepter or reincarnation artifact). Meaning that again, that is not a problem inherent to vampires. 

Trikal

Agile statpack is trash for syssin bashing. Bite does shit damage with 21 Dex it's still less than 18str garrotes.

Trikal

Syssin bashing damage is one of those that's still lower than scepter damage I think without other artis to buff the garrote damage (read: lvl3 rune). Fangs of corrosion don't really make enough of a difference either for bite to be worth using for bashing. The balance time on bite in bashing is 1s slower than the pvp time due to not having to flay (my guess) so as a bash attack it's slow.

I'd also like to resay what Toz has said, put in a 7% balance adjustment arti also, and see what that does to the game. The EQ Crown can't not make EQ using classes imbalanced. You're either weak without or too strong with. 7% is a HUGE adjustment when it comes to afflictions in this game. If you disagree, come fight me in your balance class without +bal enhancement and see how that goes.

There's a reason EVERYONE picks +bal or +eq and sacrifices the HP/MP for it. You have to in order to be competitive, you can't do shit without the affliction speed.

Erebos

I wish I knew more about the classes to make any real contribution to the discussion.

Teradrim seems based on balance for both pvp and pve, and I've been advised that any pve artifacts would be a waste of credits since focusing on pvp arties will naturally increase my pve capabilities.

So seeing a rune that swaps bal for eq didn't really make sense to me.. unless I can get a crown and use it to increase my overall dps.. is this a normal route? How much am I based on bal vs eq?

Trikal

Teradrim is purely balance based, and everything I remember about testing the eq part of trying it wasn't worth doing.

Erebos

@Trikal Thanks. I'll be cleaning up my artie wishlist then. 

Satomi

tl;dr refund crown, balance the balance

I think the main difference we're seeing here is that statpacks increase your efficiency, whether it be pvp or pve. Crown arti determines whether you can actually compete, depending on the class.

Going back to an old point made, being Praenomen without a crown trying to fight a Syssin means that, by default, the Syssin has an advantage on you because of how reliant your class is on the Crown to perform optimally, where syssin has no such reliance.

I'd be all for getting rid of the crown arti (refund plz) and leveling out EQ to compensate. Everyone still requires defensive artis, and there are niche offensive artis that can benefit each class, be it damage for your spells, or rune of weaponry(w/e) for your weapons.

In terms of Bashing, I can tell you straight up, the only classes I ever bother bashing in would be Cabalist, Carnifex, and Teradrim. If I'm feeling particularly feisty, I might go Syssin, Sciomancer, or Monk, but the former 3 are the only ones that give you the most offense and defense put together... and with the EQ arti, my decay times are at 2.84s per EQ. Without my crown, it's around 3.07. (test done)

Teradrim, if you're bashing, you have to be str focused. Switching to EQ is all well and good, but you need to use the blue major rune and stonefury to max out. (will test this out laters) Indorani, you need to use Decay because Bonedagger is just too weak by comparison. Syssin, you can manage about 1100 dmg per hit if you have 17 str, at 2.49s.. not terrible, but not like.. fabulous.. Sciomancer, I wouldn't ever touch without my crown, because 3.01s balance for damage = to Decay (they are equal now, depending on int dump).. um.. yeah, I can go on if you want.

Edit for Indorani: At 15 dex/15 int, without crown or balance enhancements, Bonedagger = 1047 damage at 3.5s balance. Decay = 1494 damage at 3.3s EQ.

Obviously, with both EQ and the Crown, Decay far outstrips Bonedagger, making any Agi build pointless (of course, I'm not PK heavy, so I can't say how effect agi is in 1v1 scenarios. Bashing, though? Pointless.)

Erebos

Different classes are going to have different struggles by their nature. 

From this discussion, it appears that balance classes are gated behind an end-game balance increase, while eq classes are gated behind an 850cr artie. Hybrid classes seem to be a mix of either needing both,  one, or neither.  

Pay walls exist in these style games and without making every class a reskin of each other,  there is no way to create a perfect credits spent vs efficiency ratio without killing the unique aspects of the game. 

If you delete the crown and rebalance all the classes that use eq to require an end game trait for eq, people will complain that some classes require weaponstats while others don't. Then you fix that, ad people complain that some classes rely on power stats while others can focus on CON. 

If you keep pulling strings, eventually the beautiful tapestry is a pile of threads.

Satomi

@Erebos While I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, both classes require their speed specific stat. Crown is just another necessary thing to tip the balance for EQ reliant classes (that I've noticed.)

I can't speak to how necessary it actually is, like Rhyot and others can, I can just say that my sole reason for getting crown was so that I didn't have to bother with underperforming because I didn't have it, thus making every class I have effective to one degree or another whenever the situation demanded it (and I got systems to fill the voids).

Cabalist is my fav. class, though, simply because I can dump everything into int and mana without worrying about dying.. but.. I wonder if Dropstrike punches through link.. >.>..

Toz

No. No class requires a weapon rune. Outside of extreme cases with specific setups, no class requires any artifacts to exist/be useful except +EQ. Again, if you think 7% AFF/damage/active cure/other stuff rate is on par with the .1s of speed you gain with a level 3 rune, I invite you to go neutral balance and fight in the sect with it.

Satomi

@Toz Well, my testing shows that the 14% from both +EQ and Crown will drop your balance by roughly .4s (on a 3-4s flat recovery). I know enough about combat to know that almost half a second's worth of balance for a 3-4s ability is a 'massive' deal, especially when you aren't reliant on secondary balances. Combat speed is dictated by the slowest recovery time you have, between EQ and Bal, unless the two are completely independent (which they rarely are, Balance tends to rely on EQ being up, where EQ can sometimes be used despite balance)

But yeah, beating a dead horse. I can go on for days about how convenient having a crown is, while at the same time whispering about how nice that 850cr would be invested elsewhere if crown wasn't necessary.. as it stands now? I'd consider myself in the upper combat tier potential, if I had the actual skill/knowledge/willingness to invest in it, simply by having crown. If I didn't have crown, I'd just not bother with any EQ class.

Edit: I should add that even without crown, the classes have value. Don't get me wrong, they are awesome. Just in 1v1 PK, you'd need it to be optimal.

Took me a moment to realize how doomed-sounding my opinion of EQ classes are. In reality, you can still group-fight with 0 artifact investment, and you can even 2v2 with relative effectiveness.