Praenomen (and related) Chat

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: City and Guilds - Goals and Consequences.

Tedrunai

Why play Praenomen? Cause the class is fantastic, unique/interesting, and one of the strongest ones in the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by heavy entry costs @Rhyot . It really just requires an equilibrium crown, same as any other eq-using class in the game. In fact it's probably the most cost-efficient class in the game since you're getting 3 subsets in one class, each having a different kill route though the core offense is similar.

Erebos

@Rhyot that sounds like the Praenomen class could use fixing. 

Honestly,  Undead RP is so contrary because off the game logic vs character logic. 

Praise Ivoln for his gift of Undeath. We are now the chosen people, but the living are equal to is because we don't want to leave anyone out. Vampires are undead but are not Undead because they didn't get their gift from Ivoln, and Ivoln doesn't like vampires but we're supposed to be allies in Bloodloch.

So.. essentially that which makes Bloodloch great is not special, does not unite the community and is a point of contention with its allies. 

This is what needs to change to allow Undead RP to flourish. My idea for this is to bring about a sense of pride in one's undeath. 

But! Another real problem here is multiclass with classes more rooted in life/undeath.

Rhyot

@Tedrunai The fact that the necessity of the eq crown for combat IS the high entry cost. That's 850 cr ($270) for entry level into combat for a single class on the darkie side... when you comparatively don't need to have any sort of credit investment for Carnifex, Indorani, Teradrim, Syssin, Cabal, or Sciomancer as far as I'm aware.

You're absolutely right, it's a powerful class. But if you're a newbie who is tight on cash or is unsure if you want to spend money on a MUD... Praenomen is not going to be your go to choice for a class if you want to fight.

Emir

You need it for Sciomancer and Cabalist. Every eq based class requires the crown artifact to operate at maximum efficiency.

Tedrunai

Cabalist and Sciomancer definitely need crown to be used to their maximum potential. But the same is also true for Ascendril, Shaman, and Luminary as well. There's nothing that inherently makes Praenomen any more investment-needy than those classes.

In fact, with Praenomen you're getting 3 different strategies in 1 class, it's probably better off than those other crown users. In the end, yeah eq-users have it rougher, but Prae doesn't have it any worse than the other ones, and those account for half the classes there are.

Bal vs eq is another discussion and would probably derail this thread.

Satomi

I think Praenomen also benefits heavily from the weapon stat rune, too, for aff pressure. All those EQ classes you speak of only need the crown, but a class that uses weapons and venoms + EQ makes it more difficult.

That said, since you can now tailor scythes, you can get by without it.. you just won't be as effective I guess? Weapon classes blow my mind, still.

Serrice

You don't need a weapon rune. I could probably kill 95% of the Aetolian population with a max speed rapier and my crown in Praenomen.

Using a runed two hander would be more of a bonus thing, really.

The other 5% are like, Shamans that I probably need some tank arties and clarity/resolve to deal with.

Tedrunai

@Satomi the class is gated by its eq time, not balance, so the weapon rune doesn't actually increase aff rate at all.

Haven

I think the question that ought to be asked is if Praenomen is viable without artifacts. Luminary and some of the other classes mentioned can contend with other classes almost all the way to top tier. Luminary for sure without any investment beyond endgame and omnitrans unless they've since nerfed the class.

If Praenomen cannot contend at all without buying an artifact then that's a very big problem to have when you consider the other classes available.

Toz

Crown is the artifact that I single out as being horrible for game balance. Classes must be balanced around it, but to argue you can do 'fine without' means either you are wrong or the class with is OP. If you could be 'fine' without crown you'd see neutral bal Syssin or Carnifex because the extra tankiness provided if you don't go +bal. Instead you don't see that, because nobody in their right mind wants to be 7% slower. Similarly, all EQ classes have to spec +EQ and get crown or be at a 7% handicap in all matchups from what they are balanced to. This further leaks into bal classes that use eq- my Carnifex AFF rate is better with a crown because soul moves use EQ and crown makes them significantly faster. Same for monk and telepathy. Crown at a price reduction and not stacking with +EQ makes it still worthwhile, alleviates the issue of there being like 3 EQ classes and a ton of bal ones (buy a crown for cheaper than a reinc gem), and means you don't have to spend $270 or whatever just to have a real offense as +eq.

Seir

@Toz beat me to the punch and said something that I was going to, but the crown is easily by far one of the worst artifacts in existence. You have to balance around it and we all know how absurd an artifact to increase bal speeds by 7% would be.

I can understand IRE making money, but the crown existing will always be a thorn in properly balancing eq classes.

Lehar

From one of the more prominent Luminary PK people right now, I would say that Luminary without crown would be a pretty big hindrance since we use EQ on almost every round. Haven't tried it without using the crown yet because my bal attacks with +bal line up perfectly with the EQ attacks when wearing crown, so unless I would need for some reason to be extra tanky, I use both. 

Toz

Drai actually put a report in for this years ago (#1977) and was told they didn't think it was necessary. I dunno if stuff has changed since then, but I think prevailing opinion of players is it needs a change.

Rhyot

@Haven: Pre-endgame, Praenomen CANNOT contend in combat at all unless you buy the eq crown. Whisper balances before crown or eq-enhance is at 3.75s. You will never kill anyone at a 3.75 whisper speed because herb balance is at 1.9s (my approx speed with no active system and pure firstaid). So in theory, if you slash for asthma, and hit for impatience/epilepsy or something else. You eat for impatience, focus epilepsy or other mentis affliction, tree for asthma. By the time the Praenomen is ready for next combo, herb balance is back and focus is on the way back. And tree is 1/3 the way back (if you have Recovery). This is additionally bolstered by the ability to shield or hide behind rebounding for some breathing room. You could argue it for 3.48s with eq crown, but you can gain some momentum with 3.48 after the second combo.

That's not even getting into the whole "I'm going to hide behind rebounding and laugh while the vampire loses blood" tactic. (Yes, that is a legitimate tactic. Cheesy, stupid and frustrating..... but legitimate. And yes, it's been done before.)

@Tedrunai: Cost efficiency? No. The most cost efficient class in the game is Templar. Get a forger to forge you some 180 speed rapiers and go to town on everyone and get your fancy retribution kills. Better yet, go Zealot or monk. Sure, monks can get a benefit from eq crown for telepathy, but it's not -REQUIRED-. Indorani, only real cost here are the pacts/wood for cards (which might get pricey but if you got contacts and are ok with paying a little xp/gold to reset pacts then simple). Hell, even Teradrim is a more 'cost efficient' class as it requires 0 artifacts to do ANYTHING due to it being a limb based classed and the only real artifacts that helps that is the targetting rune, which is completely unnecessary for a Teradrim with proper limb tracking.

Also, you get 3 subsets.... Woopy do?? You get a venom lock route, a feed route, and an annihilate route. The base of all three is VERY similar to the point that you might as well just merge all three into one "path" and let the player choose HOW you wish to kill someone. But roleplay mechanics are nice, right?

In the end, while I agree with everyone that Praenomen can be a very strong class, it's under utilized because 1) no one cares to play it anymore, 2) not many start ups (newbies) want to invest $270 into a game they just started playing just to fight, 3) it's easily stopped by someone just sitting behind rebounding, and 4) most people don't really want to be a vampire anyway. Sure, there's lore to it.... but why play a vampire when you can play a class that has so much more usability for a cheaper cost?

So here's a question for you all to think about: If vampirism is such a "draw" to Aetolia... why is it we have very few, if any, actually running around? Because trend and numbers show otherwise.

Editted for tested herb speeds based off my connection.

Haven

Did they ever fix the Asthma issue with the class as well? Anyway - if the report cycle is still open I'd recommend brainstorming with the liaisons and current Prae combatants to come up with a solution to the crown problem. I'd offer ideas myself but it's been so long...

I'm inclined to believe they won't make drastic artifact changes anytime soon if at all and so would recommend taking a look at the Luminary build for inspiration. Unless they've drastically changed the class since I played, they were similar in design and execution. While the crown is useful and nice, it was no where near necessary to compete for the Luminary class. There's a thread around here where Ezalor, Macian, Daskalos and I crunched numbers and talked about the benefits of crown for Lumi.

Emir

If crown offers a class a speed increase but the class is capable of fighting without it at top tier then that class needs to be looked at.

Lehar

I..really don't think there's a way Praenomen is going to get any sort of EQ buffs while the crown is still a thing. They're already very, very good against almost all classes, barring Shaman because of the strong defense towards mental affs.

Rhyot

I really don't see Praenomen get anything but nerfs, considering almost no one plays the class anymore. The last person I've seen actively play it was Cariv and he's kinda quit the game.

I'm sure there are ways to help Praenomen, as I've a handful of ideas. I just don't feel the forums are the appropriate place to voice these ideas.

Serrice

Lol.

Praenomen doesn't need help at all. I put together an offense in about two hours and I can smash through @Eliadon, @Lehar, @Valingar, and @Dato fine unless one of them is in Shaman.

'no one plays it' doesn't imply that 'it's not good'.

Let me tell you, @Varel? He won pretty much every Sect fight he took a month or so back when he was around for just a day or two. @Aknurk? I have no idea who this guy is, but he was taking sets off of @Eliadon and other people too.

The reason the class is getting nerfs is because it's still hilariously overpowered.

To be quite honest, I want to try the class out without my crown just to see where it stands. It's absurdly powerful.

Rhyot

Either you don't read or you're just blind. I never said it wasn't good. I agreed that it is strong.... I said very few people actively play it, because no one cares to.

There's a huge difference between the two statements.

Toz

This thread is now about how dumb crown is, pls keep on topic. $270 to play mage/cabalist/Lum/etc. Optimal? Introduce a band of balancing and nerf balance classes and watch the world burn, so why is crown OK?

Emir

I'm all for that @Toz.

Haven

I think the main argument is that Praenomen struggles to compete period without a crown. If that is true then the class needs adjustments. To discount needed changes for the base because it's outlier build is good does the game's combat health a great disservice. Unless of course you make every class require the same kind of investment to be competitive.

Emir said:

If crown offers a class a speed increase but the class is capable of fighting without it at top tier then that class needs to be looked at.

Not necessarily. Unless the class has changed, which I'm lead to believe hasn't, in the case of Luminary their offense is still linked to both BAL and EQ being used simultaneously to maintain their offense. No matter how much their EQ is reduced, there's no avoiding the 2.75 BAL and the 4-5 second Angel balance. The same can be said in reverse for someone that goes for the +BAL route where your speed is then limited to a max speed set by the EQ balance required to maintain your offense. That's a healthy design for a class because the artifact then serves as a minor boon and a tiny edge as opposed to the essential crutch it serves other classes.

Emir

Edit: I wasn't talking about luminary specifically, and I believe what I said is still true and always will be in a game full of momentum based classes. If Luminary, for instance, receives a speed increase for it's most optimal set up for PK from crown, yet it is still able to compete at top tier without crown, then...well. What's not to get? If it is able to perform fine without a 7% increase in speed (overall speed, I know your attacks are combined. If the crown is not doing anything due to balance then that's not what I'm talking about when I say 'increasing your speed') then what exactly isn't a problem about it having a 7% bonus?

Lehar

I think the main argument is that every class that has a major EQ component struggles without a crown.

Top tier fights are based on having crown - that's just how it has been and will be until crown is no longer a thing. You can't advocate for classes to be competitive without crown, because then if they do get crown..they're immediately much better. Around 7% better. That may not seem like a lot, but that Elder Shaman 8% seems to tick all the unicornsing time.

Edit: No idea why Luminary is being thrown around here. Luminary needs +bal and crown to have the same attack speed..or not have either and likely not be able to do anything unless the enemy messes up big time. Cannot function properly without crown, at least for afflictions. Limb route probably would be okay.

Haven

Emir said:

If your class uses both, balance and equilibrium, for their attacks, then whichever one is the slowest is the 'gate'. If equilibrium is the slowest, than getting the crown artifact opens that gate.

In the case of Luminary, I /believe/ the optimal set up is enhancing balance and purchasing a crown for maximum speeds?

Right. The numbers for Luminary worked out to be pretty close with one another for the different routes available to them so that the crown's advantage didn't significantly outpace those without. If I recall correctly, the optimal set up for the AFF route when I played as Wise with a crown to bypass the rebounding issues the Luminaries had. However, the class eventually got a rebounding strip skill that didn't stop BAL dead in its tracks that made the 2 statpacks comparable again so that your choice came down to convenience/style as opposed to viable and gimped.

I am not sure if these numbers are still accurate today but these were times when I played and tested: http://pastebin.com/MEGekrti

Wise with Crown: 2.75 BAL + 2.19 EQ + 5ish Angel
DEX with Crown: 2.36 BAL + 2.55 EQ + 5ish Angel

The big advantage for Wise came when rebounding was up on your opponent and you had to choose if you wanted to strip or give supportive AFFs via EQ skills that bypassed rebounding.

EDIT: Anyway, my point is that if crown is a requirement to play [insert class here] competitively then that's not fair in comparison to the majority of classes available to the rest of the game. The class should then be changed to bring it in line with everything else. Artifacts should give advantages but ultimately be optional in being competitive. They should never be a requirement. That's what @Rhyot was trying to get at I think and if it's true about the Praenomen class then that needs to be looked at and fixed.

Lehar

Are those from before statpacks were changed? I..yeah, wow. I don't even know what to say to that. I know it's been a while since you played, but man, you old. Statpack

Right now, +bal and crown gives a chasten time of 2.56 and shield attacks at 2.56 with the odd exception for shield attacks that you can't chasten on.

The problem with your point is that it's NOT just Praenomen/Vampire that has the crown problem. Literally every EQ using class needs it to be competitive and that's how classes are balanced if they use EQ. If you change Praenomen, you have to give a boost to mages, cabalist, shaman and luminary. I'd say it's pretty agreeable that none of those classes need the buff, excluding cabalist since it's getting changed soon.

Haven

Lehar said:

Are those from before statpacks were changed? I..yeah, wow. I don't even know what to say to that. I know it's been a while since you played, but man, you old.

Right now, +bal and crown gives a chasten time of 2.56 and shield attacks at 2.56 with the odd exception for shield attacks that you can't chasten on.

Were statpacks changed again in the last two-three years? :<

Lehar

@Haven Unless I'm remembering wrongly, dexterous was the +2bal statpack? Yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. There's no way to get +2bal any longer.

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2196
Date: 12/1/2013 at 2:35 <------
From: Razmael, the Synthesist
To : Everyone
Subj: Stat and statpack changes

We have a big change to release today that affects stats, statpacks and curing! This is a big post
with lots of changes, so please take the time to read all of it carefully. These numbers and effects
are all subject to change without warning for the next two weeks.

Statpacks:
----------
* Endgame statpacks no longer exist.</div>

Haven

Lehar said:

@Haven Unless I'm remembering wrongly, dexterous was the +2bal statpack? Yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. There's no way to get +2bal any longer.

I think I was there for that change. >_> I'm old and misremembering things it seems. Lawd halp me.