Announce #2535 Duiran

Xavin

I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

Daskalos

I will say... it's not entirely that hard to overthrow a group of people, you just have to build support. Going head on from the get-go isn't the way to go - you have to do it through time and planning. When you make your move, have the support. I mean, hell, I took over Shallam\Enorian and then the Luminaries and ousted some very long-standing leaders because I didn't agree with the direction they were taking the city.

I'll also say it's a whole lot easier if you're trying to do something a lot of people agree with.

Faerah

Xavin said:

I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

I actually *have* issued for metagaming and was told by the admin via Alecto that metagaming is not actually against the rules.

Solaria

Faerah said:

Xavin said:

I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

I actually *have* issued for metagaming and was told by the admin via Alecto that metagaming is not actually against the rules.

When it becomes abuse, more than just metagaming alone, it can be a serious concern to the health of the game. It never hurts to issue for suspected metagaming, especially if it could be a serious detriment to the game. It's definitely not AGAINST the rules, but other aspects of it can be (such as abuse). It's better to issue and let the admin team know what you think is going on rather than let it boil up to a point where it starts destroying an entire organization.

Zsadist

That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.

1: It isn't against the rules, in any way. So people can, and do, go around metagaming stuff all the time. Metagaming is so apparent especially in alts that act far smarter about a specific event as if they were there.

2: Abuse is an easily misunderstood line. Simply because you could roleplay out the fact that your character hates a certain group of people and its completely acceptable. Thing about abuse is that its hard to prove that its abuse.

3: Even if you can prove that there is a ton of metagaming going on via pasted skype/facebook messages or whatever medium, it still wont get anywhere BECAUSE metagaming is accepted.


No matter what you do, unless you do as Daskalos said and garter more support and do more work than those already in power, issuing WILL NOT solve your problem, no matter how much you want it to.

Solaria

Zsadist said:

That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.
Stuff here.

No one is saying it'll solve the problem. But, the admin team don't know what's going on at all times - it's good to let them know what is so they can step in if it is needed and they don't realize it is. It's not going to hurt anything but waste a few minutes of your time at most.

Xandren

Solaria said:

Zsadist said:

That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.
Stuff here.

No one is saying it'll solve the problem. But, the admin team don't know what's going on at all times - it's good to let them know what is so they can step in if it is needed and they don't realize it is. It's not going to hurt anything but waste a few minutes of your time at most.

I personally think it's more an issue of, "it's only going to waste a few minutes of your time" and more a matter of considering the emotional state and the level of "Weariness" that the person who is reporting the metagaming has. I know that if I were to issue for metagaming/abuse, I'm pretty sure I'm not in a state of mind where my patience for anything is going to be very high in amount. And if I do end up "wasting a few minutes" on doing so, only to be told that metagaming isn't against the rules (and honestly? That shocks me. It's against the rules in Achaea AND Lusternia, and even MKO's rules note it, in spite of its metagaming based toxic atmosphere), though I will point out that metagaming should be taken in levels. Metagaming knowledge of an area that you knew from a previous character, and is common knowledge for anyone who has visited the area? Probably okay and not hurting anyone. Metagaming knowledge that is NOT common, but is in fact only known by select people, such as the layout of say the Carnifex guildhall, or the Sentinel guildhall, or secrets only spoken of behind closed doors? That's definitely beyond the boundary. And supposedly the godmins DO retain logs for 3 days of all happenings in the game. Supposedly. I'm not sure if that's true. But if it is, then there should be at least some ample proof of metagaming. So while they're not ominpotent, the tools to locate proof are there. And many players (myself included) tend to log everything. I do it for different reasons, but I still make sure Mudlet logs every last detail of everything.

Teani

I think that dismissal of previously filed issues are what keeps people from filing new ones. They have a feeling (rightfully or not) that the Admin will simply brush it to the side and say there's nothing wrong with what Person B is doing, even though Person A is feeling absolutely miserable simply trying to play the game.

I agree with @Solaria though. Issues are needed to ensure people are made aware of the situation. If you feel harassed in some way, I daresay that the ISSUE ME command is a good way to go (as has been previously mentioned.
Firstly, no one but the Admin will know what you write, so it will be your own, unedited version without any counter attacks muddling it up. You get to explain what happened and how it made you feel and why. Secondly, it prevents others from feeling targeted and possibly lashing out at you (which some people do). Lastly, the Admin gets a chance to sit back and look at what's going on, to see if it continues happening.

To those out there who seem to enjoy making fun of other people filing issues against them: It doesn't help solve any problems. In fact, it might just make things even worse and you're not making yourself look any better either.

As a sidenote, I think the Admin could use harsher punishment. In this case, the capital punishment seems to have made players confused as to who was actually in the wrong. I've heard players from all kinds of coalitions claiming it was the fault of the other side, not them. As a teacher, I have seen this a lot in the class room when groups of students have been offered critique. People who ought to listen tend to think it applies to someone else, while those who haven't earned the critique become upset because they feel wrongfully accused. How are they to improve if they don't know for sure?

Riluo

Part of the current reason I do not interact with people is the metagaming and the impact it had, and still does not only on my characters or the orgs I run, but also on my personal feelings and desire to invest in the game. Then when issues take a week to hear back on and the reply is "deal with it in game" you tend to just suck it up and think why bother.

It really comes down to this. There is no real rules to enforce it, nor do the admin always have time to look into it.

Asaraii

@Riluo The admin always have time to look into issues. Their -income- depends on it. They are paid to do a job here. One of those is customer service related - handling issues. This is a business, therefore if someone being paid to do this job isn't doing it, they probably wouldn't still be getting paid.

They have access to every single one of your commands you enter in game. Likely if they don't respond to the issue how you want, it's because of a couple things...

1- Whatever abusive behavior you claim is happening didn't happen via the game (very well could be plotted via skype, but with no trace of it being spoken about IG? Hard to believe).

2- It wasn't actually abusive/metagaming behavior, and you are being held responsible for your own behaviors and actions in the game.

3- You probably had some crappy behavior to throw into the mix, making you equally guilty of causing the issue, or you very well could be the cause of the issue, you just won't accept/acknowledge you're own behavior.

Antehe

Regarding Metagaming: Metagaming is a tricky thing. There are different kinds (agreeing OOCly when a scene should move on to the next, using pastebin for designs rather than putting them into IC letters, OOC tells arranging when to schedule things, versus gathering votes via third party mediums), and different avenues (both in game and outside of it).

While some methods are accepted by the community and others generally frowned upon, there is nothing in the ToS against metagaming. Additionally, with the use of third party mediums (such as Skype), it is incredibly difficult to monitor, and pastebins are easily doctored so they become a tricky ground of he-said-she-said.

To note, after a quick search on the Achaean, MKO, and Lusternian sites - none have a help file that mentions Metagaming (however Aetolia does!).

From HELP OOC:

Q: Are there other types of OOC behavior I should know about?

A: Allowing information that your character would not reasonably know to affect their actions; referred to as 'metagaming', is another type of OOC behavior to avoid. In example, if another player told you in a chat window about something a mutual friend did, and in turn, your character approached the friend and asked about it, this is an instance of metagaming. While this example is benign, the affects of metagaming can and often do escalate to staggering lengths. While metagaming is hard to police and not as obvious as other OOC actions, we depend upon players themselves to be careful about separating OOC knowledge from character's knowledge. That said, help scrolls and honors are considered general knowledge.

However, HELP SECONDS and HELP HARASSMENT remain in effect (and HELP HARASSMENT was recently updated).


Regarding Issuing: Please, please issue (or ISSUE ME as Teani pointed out) if you feel an abuse is going on. While the administration has some tools to monitor things, there is no real all-seeing-all-knowing eye. Also, when you issue, provide as much data as you can. Also remember that when issues are being looked at, they are looked at in a wider lense, so incorporate more than your experience alone.

Even with just 20 people logged in, what is being expected would require at least one person dedicated solely to watching the commands of every single person (even if exported into individual windows), which includes all bashing, combat, help spam, crafting, random chatter on all clans and webs, well as some things that we would really rather NOT watch, especially in your private havens and homes. Ahem. This is also something that the majority 'upstairs' would not be permitted to do, as it would negate the necessary policy change from 9/2015. It is a similar problem when processing issues, the big boys having to weed through the backlog to gauge what has happened (thus the lengthy turnaround times for some).

Other aspects regarding issuing require a bit more from you, the players. Harassment's a pretty common word thrown around, as an example - however in many of these cases, no one's clearly told the person in question to desist and leave them alone ("You're mean" and "I don't agree with you" or "You're stupid" do NOT constitute "Stop talking to me I am done."). IGNORE is also a pretty powerful tool, even if it makes communal discussions a bit difficult if the person in question is involved (and could be employed en-masse if the community feels blacklisting someone is appropriate).

Finally, just as you are protected by the rules in many ways, we are also bound to them. Even if we personally feel that someone is behaving in a way we don't approve of, we are also bound to the ToS and larger IRE mandates. If you feel that the rules are inadequate - discuss them and how to improve them. Provide criteria for the lines you would like to have drawn, and how you would like situations handled. While I cannot guarantee that they would be implemented as-is, I at least am more than happy to look it over and lobby for better clarification, even if only with the weight of a volunteer.

Riluo

@Antehe this sums it up pretty well, as it is either easy to spot or in some cases it can be a long drawn out passive aggressive sequence of micro events which nobody wants to filter through.

In terms of how to tweak rules to clarify them for all parties. I honestly would not even know where to start myself if given the task. In fact the whole notion is just bleh.


From my own perspective I was one of those metagamers myself for a few months back in January this year and whilst I was at fault I was not alone in it. The problem is that it results in a lot of angry people and like my own events with players and admin it just snowballs if it is not dealt with. In many ways it was the reason I stepped back for the last few months and only now am I slowly returning to test the water so to speak. After all it is a game and one we play to enjoy, so when it gets to the point it did with my own situation you can either step away or let it damage others peoples time as well as your own in the game.

Xenia

In regards to metagaming, we each have to make conscious decisions in how extensively we are going to discuss the actions taken IC on an OOC level. Personally, I work really hard to maintain a strict barrier between IC and OOC, because when this barrier begins to break, I know I have been guilty of taking things far too seriously. Especially when I perceive myself on the losing end-- I am a rather poor loser.

While I have not been a leadership position of an org for an extensively long time, I have found myself facing conflicts which at times felt as though were being planned and plotted entirely OOCly. Whether or not this was true was irrelevant because ultimately I needed to remember to be responsible for my IC interactions and how I would use whatever came my way to shape the story of my character or organization. I've since then started to realize those of us in leadership positions are responsible for ushering in a culture of handling issues IC, regardless of whatever animosity persists between players.

I don't know the intimate details of what went on in Duiran, but I think in order to address metagaming problems, we should look more towards how we as players can change how those things play out, rather than towards the Admin on how to punish it. This is not to say it should not be punished, and more to suggest the process of a witch hunt is just as bad as the metagaming itself.

Rasani

I agree with @Xenia . As much as it's the job of Admin to handle issues brought to their attention, it's up to Org leaders to be able to handle the issues IC and fairly, even if you don't like everyone you have to deal with. The more we have Org leaders who are willing and able to do this, the faster this cycle of metagaming impacting orgs on a really huge level will die out. I haven't been an org leader long at ALL, but it's one of the first things I learned.

And honestly, if you see abuse, even if it's not toward you? Maybe talk to an admin. New players may not know what's worth an issue or not and it's that nasty bystander situation: If you don't act because you expect someone else to, you can't be sure ANYONE will act.

Jules

Org leaders can sometimes only do so much, or rather should only do so much. Smart bullies will not do crappy things in front of any sort of decent org leader, because it will be really clear that that org leader wouldn't tolerate such. At best it takes them a bit to slip up in a way that lets you say "okay, yeah, this is so definitely valid", and org leaders can't go check game logs. I am not saying do nothing, but I think it would be very easy to overstep what an org leader actually should be doing in any situation that isn't incredibly blatant.

EDIT: an example of an appropriate response, al la what I am guessing Xenia might do at times, and which I have seen in other orgs is "okay, you kids are in time out and can't touch each other or I will pull this car over".

Xenia

EDIT: an example of an appropriate response, al la what I am guessing Xenia might do at times, and which I have seen in other orgs is "okay, you kids are in time out and can't touch each other or I will pull this car over".

Well, there is certainly some of that, but I'm talking about even before it gets to this point. You see the signs, perhaps are even informed on the issue in some form, and essentially have the opportunity to act as a leader and avoid the conflict by steering the entire situation. Perhaps more on par with the parent whose children are getting hungry, and forgot to fit food into the schedule. They ask do you want to eat X or Y rather than, what do you want to eat?

Anise

I know I'm uber late to the party. But I'm calling shenanigans on the admin. When this behavior was and is still exhibited in Bloodloch, the excuse was always made that it was their role play to do the things they did. Yet somehow it's different because it's Duiran? 

Rashar

Wat.

Zsadist

Anise said:

I know I'm uber late to the party. But I'm calling shenanigans on the admin. When this behavior was and is still exhibited in Bloodloch, the excuse was always made that it was their role play to do the things they did. Yet somehow it's different because it's Duiran? 

As a Bloodlochian, I have to say that your comment is completely incorrect @Anise. Yes, there is some metagaming, but that happens no matter where you go. The toxicity level of Bloodloch is practically at 0. Reason being, the Council is quite quiet and the entire city barely ever talks. When we do talk, its usually to pick so everyone can pick on someone (typically Zsadist) or greetings in general.

The last serious conversation that was on it that ruffled some feathers was about a month ago when Akara wanted to start another war with Spinesreach, just because she was bored.

The levels that it has reached in Duiran is NOWHERE near anything I can even BEGIN to describe. I know only face value of what a large handful of people have contacted me about it, but trust me when I say the shit that Duiran is facing, Bloodloch does not face it.

However, I will appease you. What sort of behavior do you believe exists in Bloodloch??

Sarita

I could possibly see something about Bloodloch metagaming being said about the Caboose era, maybe, but that was a different set of producers/admin, not to mention almost entirely different players.

Alexina

Someone did a bad thing in the past, so clearly we should allow it now too.

Asaraii

I would like to know how this behavior is still happening in Bloodloch, as a leader that has been trying real hard not to encourage unnecessary drama on a leadership level. There were a couple flare ups of stupidity in the past year, but nothing remotely close to Duiran.


I heard someone whining about this not long ago too, which I just find interesting at this point.


None of the skype conversations I've had with anyone on Aetolia have been to metagame or scheme something. Most of the time, we're hashing out ideas of what to do to improve things for- other players-, not us. There hasn't even been changes made in the city that would negatively affect anyone, nobody's been trolled or disrespected. I don't enjoy how quiet the city is, but it's hard to encourage old players who don't ever like to talk or RP in public to do that. Me and a few others will strike up banter when we're around and roleplay with people when they seem like they want to, but if our harmless attempts to wake people up are considered trolly or griefy, I do apologize and I'd like to know what I did to offend someone.


All of the people that are on Bloodloch's ruling council are, frankly, a bunch of people who make decisions together and don't like drama. We don't like bickering, we don't like childish arguments, and we don't even get mad at each other - because this a game and if a game is making me frustrated I will shut it off. We post about all changes we make and give everyone the opportunity to speak up if they dislike something - if they don't speak up, or don't let us know there's something going on, well. That isn't our fault.

TL;DR version, Ilyon is a troll.

Draiman

He really is.

Rasani

I mean, I'm not Bloodloch so normally I'd say "I can't say", but that's just it. EVERYONE in the game knows about how bad Duiran has gotten. Even people who AREN'T Duiran, that speaks volumes, I think, about how the same thing isn't even kind of happening in Bloodloch.

Xavin

It probably doesn't help that quite a few people have aired Duiran's dirty laundry over public clans and such, or all the chatter that goes on via word-of-mouth. That said, you don't have admin stepping in and completely changing the government system for a single org without there being some unprecedented levels of dickery going on that is seriously endangering the health of the game as a whole.