Deceptive Arti Promos

Azzello

@Erzsebet That's what I did, I was stoked on more credits!

@Areka That is a very good point, being a business owner myself, understanding my customers is what keeps my doors open. It is my opinion though, that it is ultimately up to the consumer to make sure we know what we are purchasing before we buy anything.

Lim

There are technical rights, and then there is business commonsense. 

Technically, Moi has no recourse unless she sues and contests the terms. The terms which are in IRE's favour. Although the US might have consumer protection laws that mandate the same return policy as described above for the UK. Not sure if it applies to online or intangible goods. 

In terms of business commonsense, it'll be a weighing of how many people get turned off from making a future purchase against the cost of Moi's refund. As to where that balance lies, it's anyone's guess. 

Jensen

Well the consumer law quoted was void after services were rendered. She got the credits in the first few minutes, plus the misunderstood bonus item. I understand that it's a lot of money, and that really does suck, but I don't think keeping this thread open will help. We as consumers just need to ask better questions, especially for large purchases. I feel for ya Moi I really do, it sucks

Lim

I think where there are two types of TRACK abilities, it was Raz's oversight not to indicate which. One allows you to take groups in, one doesn't. 

Another IG way to resolve this, short of arranging a monetary refund, would be to give Moi the lycan version of track, with all the other attached restrictions, ie area/adjacent area only. 

Though there might be something to be said about being able to track instantly from an adjacent area when it is a focus battle, and you aren't allowed to attack the opposing team while they assemble outside the current area. Maybe the adjacent area allowance would have to be disabled for focus battles. But this is an issue with lycan track in general. 

Serrice

IIRC, that was the reasoning for having it removed from the Sentinel version. People complained that you could come into the zone without any warning at all from pretty much anywhere.

Jensen

I remember it vividly. I tracked our lesser party to Xarian. We rolled 15 deep into west gate

Lim

lycan op. delete lycan. 

Asaraii

Imperian's version even ended up putting a message to the person being tracked to that they were about to get bussed.

Serrice

Do we have any lawyers or paralegals playing? Can someone attract @Faerah 's attention? It feels like this the standing for this case comes down to what sort of reasonable expectations an average person making this sort of purchase would have for the product. I can't really say for certain that I count as 'average' in this determination, since I'm a liaison and a Sentinel and have to have an intimate familiarity with the skills of the game, ergo, my natural assumption was that the artifact simulated Sentinel track, and not lycan track. I feel like that puts me in a minority though, with the majority being the other possible conclusion.

EDIT: the callout for legals was just cause I was curious if what I mentioned above was accurate, and how strong of a case in court you would have.

Jensen

From what I remember of a logged troll, court cases are handled in Cali and we all agree by playing. Also she paid for credits and received a bonus item, not bought an arti and got bonus credits

Carivah

I think legally all the balls are in IRE's court. Customer satisfaction is separate from purely legal concerns, though. Even Raz admitted the promo could have been clearer, so there's not a lot of sense disputing that. But where to go from there? There just might not be a right answer.

Aishia

Well if you go by the wording alone it DOES make it clear it only works to outdoor rooms, and it says track YOU to the target. Not saying you couldn't come to your own conclusions but it definitely made no claims to take others.

You gain a new Horsemanship ability to have your mount track you to any outdoors player on same continent/plane instantly. Only works once per Howling.

Teani

I'll just add that if I had seen TRACK mentioned, I would have assumed it was the Shapeshifter skill. Shapeshifter is now a widely spread class in the game, something everyone can get without tether restrictions, while Sentinel is not. I even -have- a Sentinel and I still would have assumed Shapeshifter Track was the deal.

If Shapeshifters are able to track with groups, why not make this artifact similar to that skill rather than the Sentinel version? Maybe I've missed the response to this somewhere in this mess. If so, I'm sorry.

Valdus

World-wide followable track is not something we intend on implementing in any form, much less as a limited-availability promotional item.

Teani

Yeah, but Shapeshifter Track is not worldwide though, just followable from adjacent area, right?

Azzello

The problem really stems from something Teani said, assumption. Doesn't matter if you are the president of the largest corporation in the world, or an administrator for Iron Realms, we are still just human beings, and sometimes we make mistakes (not saying they did or didn't, that's besides the point). When we begin to assume things, we run into issues such as this one, I guess that all goes back to my original statement that we need to take responsibility for what we do, not even just purchase. When we do something big, whether that be a monetary investment or a life changing decision, we need to take the extra time to sit back, think it over, and investigate what we are doing. When we do that, instead of assuming we are getting what we envision, we avoid all kinds f hardships. I speak from 30 years of experience screwing up.

Zsadist

I'd just like to point out, that assuming ANYTHING never ends well. Something that I always like to say:

When you assume something, it makes an ass out of u and me.

Aldric

If assuming things could actually turn people into unicorns I'd be firing off assumptions like crazy.

Lim

Zsadist said:

I'd just like to point out, that assuming ANYTHING never ends well. Something that I always like to say:

When you assume something, it makes an ass out of u and me.

I love how the auto-censor totally mangled Z's platitude

Zsadist

I know right?!?!?! So mad!!!

Lim

I don't think it's fair to say that Moi assumed, or Moi should have checked. All these things are easy to say on hindsight.

Maybe Moi thought there might have been an issue, but willfully ignored it. This is entirely possible, since she is an experienced player.

However, the nature of such things is that you don't, at the time, consider the issue to be an issue. The assumption comes subconsciously. Definitely, if you weren't sure, you would ask. But at the time, of course you'd have felt sure about it. It's only on hindsight that you realise that you shouldn't have been that sure after all.

Daskalos

I'm just going to chime in for a second here and then go back to pretending Aetolia doesn't exist or that I couldn't have bought a nice car for what I've spent here.

I have \ had my own issues with Aetolia's administration and they are aware of them. Heck, I was even debating returning (briefly) until I read this post (http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/comment/69460/#Comment_69460) that, besides being factually inaccurate, re-affirmed my stance that if I were to return it would be more of the same as it has been. ( Daskalos never enemied Auresae, nor did he ever attempt to ban Auresae from Enorian. He did question whether Auresae cared for Enorian or Duiran more since her temple moved to near Duiran and 3\4ths of her order leadership were Duiran citizens ).

All of that being said, and knowing full and well that both @Razmael and @Oleis really would like nothing more than if I never logged in again, on the topic of artifacts, they were always generally helpful and pretty easy to work with. Bugs with artifacts I bought were always given a top priority, especially the rarer ones from auction similar to the Rod of Dispersion that Moirean mentioned above.

As for the legal stuff, knock yourself out. Being disenfranchised isn't grounds for any sort of legal issue. If you're unhappy with the way something has turned out, unhappy with the stance taken against you, you can always do as I did and walk away. There's a world out there, and it's bright and happy and full of great things. Aetolia goes on without any of us and makes enough money that they can afford to lose any of us, myself included.

Just my two cents.

Jensen

Going off topic, but since we're already there. It is possible to play this game, enjoy the world, and not drop your salary into the game. I do it well (now, not before). I have a scheduling luxury that some do not have, where my travel dictates my Aetolian clock. Where I limit myself to only playing while I'm away from home, and I can do life stuff when I am home. That coupled with only paying for membership curbs what used to be an arti addiction and an aetolian time blackhole.

Next side note, miss ya Dask

Aishia

I thought that was in pretty poor taste myself @Daskalos, when I read it I was like, really?

Jensen

Aishia said:

I thought that was in pretty poor taste myself @Daskalos, when I read it I was like, really?

I don't think that's a fair assessment. We should all be more empathetic to people who invest a lot of time and money into aetolia only to then get disheartened by either the community or game itself. I know Dask always took a lot of flak from the evil side of this game, but it must be painful to see that 6 months after your gone even the good side divine are still using you as a whipping boy.

Rashar

I think that was her point.

I also think it's probably just one idle conversation and maybe not thaaat big a deal. I'm not even sure why it was quoted. I think the person that did so should have probably known it would be in poor taste, as Aishia put it.

Jensen

Oooohh she's talking about what was quoted

Draiman

Oi, ignore this.

[Deleted User]

As the person who made the quote, it was not in serious intent or to smear on @Daskalos - it was more a joking with Moirean to humor her in the grounds of the discussion which is prefaced with her sassing Auresae and stating she peed in the drinks... and then taken out of context. By no means was it meant to be portrayed as an attack towards Daskalos or his player.

I do try to have a bit more integrity than that as someone in the pools, those who have interacted with Auresae know she has a bit of sass to her, but never would I say anything that would damage a player or the community, this is a place to have fun and enjoy yourself. For what it is worth, my apologies to you.

Areka

I apologize in advance for beleaguering the point.

You can be sassy without making accusations of, and degrading, an ally and giving that kind of dangerous misinformation to a notable enemy. I hadn't seen that quote but it was incredibly disappointing to see that the goddess of Purity and Fire was acting that way with an Iosian, CL of Spinesreach, and GM of Carnifex (and disappointing to see it posted, what was honestly expected other than to make a jab at someone who quit the game months ago? You can leave and still be publicly spat on for a few cheap laughs? How could that not possibly sting in the least).