Deceptive Arti Promos

Moirean

I spent nearly $600 on the latest promo for Aetolia, because it was advertised that I'd get a riding crop that would let me track to enemies. The ONLY restriction that was stated in this announce post was that it would have a cooldown on use. The TRACK ariti is a rather well-known one in Imperian - I assumed I was purchasing a version of this. This arti lets teams follow you into battle.

After buying this product, I then learn that there are restrictions. I cannot track to people indoors. I cannot lead groups (everyone in my entourage is lost when I track).

Aetolia's own version of track (a lycan skill called TRACK) also lets you lead a group of people. A restriction was listed in announcing this arti (the CD time) and NO OTHER restrictions were listed.

In short, this comes across as heavily deceptive. I bought this explicitly so I could lead groups to team fights. To then learn that there are hidden restrictions, which were NEVER mentioned, feels just absurd, and deceptive, especially as the CD restriction was mentioned in the announce - to include one restriction implies that there are no others. To find out that indoors and losing followers applies to the arti greatly cheapens it and had I know I would never have spent the credits.

I feel robbed, and lied to. Yeah. I'm pissed off. I expect I'll be banned for forums for this, but I'm sorry. That was $600 dollars that I got duped into wasting. I'm so freaking livid.

Serrice

I assumed it was the same as Sentinel track, which does have all of the listed restrictions.

Moirean

It wasn't just $600, either. I've repeatedly spent money on monthly elite, and 600 credits for this month alone, because I was chill with the company. After learning this news, I'm now seriously regretting both my purchase to get the crop AND my other purchases. Had I know about this lying, I'd not have bought $200 more worth of credits tonight. I do not want to deal with deceptive companies.

Moirean

Serrice said:

I assumed it was the same as Sentinel track, which does have all of the listed restrictions.

It didn't have those when it was metamorphosis. Lycan track doesn't have the restrictions. Imperian's arti which is essentially what this was advertised as doesn't have the restrictions.

Stating what restrictions are (the CD) implies that those are all the restrictions. It is incredibly deceptive to list only one of several restrictions. I think I'm absolutely justified in being upset.

Serrice

Well, lycan track and Sentinel track are totally different nowadays.

Sentinel track requires you to be mounted, can target anyone outdoors on the same continent, doesn't let your allies follow through, and has a channel.

The change to prevent allies from following through was changed back in 2012, reference announce post 2077.

Lycan track is area or adjacent area only, outdoors, and instant.

I suppose because I'm more familiar with the Sentinel version and the fact that this would work as part of a mount thing made me assume it was the Sentinel track, not the Lycan track.

Volka

I thnk it's less that it's 'like this track' or 'like that track' and more that if you're going to list one restriction, you have to list them all, otherwise, it implies that the listed restrictions are the only ones in effectt.

I can understand what @serrice is saying, because it does seem too be following Sentinel track (CD instead of Channel?) but it never said it did (from what I understan, doon't know personally) so in that way, it feels deceptive by ommision?

Moirean

That's all well and good, but why would I, as a non-Sentinel, think it's the same? It was listed as simply TRACK. The restrictions were also listed - a CD time on use. NO OTHER RESTRICTIONS WERE LISTED.

To list one restriction and not list any others is incredibly deceptive, and, frankly, it's something Aetolia has a habit of (see: my rod that didn't even work for 2 RL years and is incredibly useless still despite costing 2k credits). Once you've spent the money, your investment is sunk in and you just need to "deal with" the results, even if they fall far short of what was promised.

This sort of business practice is lame and shameful. Customers should NOT have to triple-check to ensure they aren't getting screwed before they spend HUNDREDS of dollars. I will be talking with my wallet. As someone who's spent $800 in the past 30 days, I can only hope that is noticed. I absolutely urge the rest of you to do the same - exercise extreme caution, as it's quite clear the promos are basically just money traps.

Why do I say money traps?

Because I tried to talk to @Razmael about this. His response was basically "Your loss." To quote him: Message #30516 Sent By: Razmael Received On: 3/04/2015/10:30 "Yes, I agree in hindsight that I should have explicitly stated it was based on Woodlore Track."

Yeah hindsight really helps me having spent that $600. I'm so damn glad you guys will consider spending a bit more effort wording the next promo post.

Screw you, Aetolia.

Ishin

In the future, I definitely think that if it's a copy/pasta of a skill, it needs to be stated as such - and the restrictions on it(all of them) need to be openly stated.

Serrice

Moirean said:

After buying this product, I then learn that there are restrictions. I cannot track to people indoors. I cannot lead groups (everyone in my entourage is lost when I track).

I took a gander at the original announce post, and it does say that it only works on people outdoors.

It also doesn't say that you can lead groups with it.

Moirean

The indoors I can understand. There is precedent for that with most ranged skills. It's the people following that I'm pissed about - I bought this as someone who spends 99% of her PK time leading groups, TO LEAD GROUPS INTO BATTLE.

Moirean

This is really just par for the course with Aetolia's "special" artifacts - for example, I paid 2k credits for the rod of dispersion in an arti auction. It was advertised as this:

The Rod of Dispersion
-Powerful magic within the Rod of Dispersion will allow the user to cause everyone within the room with him to be cast randomly about the realm instantly. This powerful effect can only be used once per Aetolian month.

I get the rod and for 2 RL years I can't even use it, because it takes both eq and bal to use, and the eq check is quicker than the swing. Razmael finally fixes it, but the rod has to be WIELDED (and isn't a weapon, as far as quick-wield is concerned) AND has a CHANNEL on it, akin to the length of behead. Where is any of this mentioned (announce post 1159 btw if you want the source). In addition to that, people aren't actually sent to random spots. It's a cheap-ass code piggyback of direcall, so everyone is actually sent to the SAME several rooms - I paid a TON of credits for what was stated, and instead I got something where I have to: secure weapons, wield, use balance, channel for a shit-ton of time, and then just sends everyone to the same room.

I guess the only surprise is that I'm surprised at Aetolia.

Riluo

I thought it was useable with groups that is why I got it

Lim

I think your points are valid. Corporate should give refunds if they are aware and have business sense. I don't think Raz has access to the cash.

I personally feel that the relationship between players and Aetolia is less 'customer-business' and more 'addict-dealer'. To be frank, despite your outrage, I half expect you to come back next promo and spend another thousands bucks because you can't help it. I know, because I feel/felt that way. 

Short of being a whistle blower, which I believe is your aim here, the next most effective thing to do would be to exercise self control and vote with your wallet. 

Oleis

Are you absolutely serious with this? You have three avenues of complaint: issues, messages, emails. You got nowhere with the first two, despite a litany of abuse on your part, and you've been directed to option three.

This is not option four. Option four is going away.

Oleis

Because this relies on an understanding of a conversation between Moirean, Razmael and myself that can look very different out of context to other players, I want to make a clarification: There are only so many times you can be called "a fucking liar" in a message before it stops being effective. As with anyone who wishes to override a decision @Razmael makes, Moirean was directed to our President, Jeremy Saunders, for assistance. She chose to start this thread as an alternative.

The artifact power in question operates with no more restriction than the regular abilities in this game it mimics, including Lycan track. Comparing it to Imperian at all is absurd to begin with, but even that is a faulty comparison: the functionality she describes is something reserved for high-end custom artifact pets.

I'm reopening this thread so that the discussion can continue, and I sincerely apologize for closing it out of haste. The problem at hand was that this thread mirrored multiple other conversations taking place simultaneously (and foreshadowed a similar track of abuse) and I wanted to preempt it as soon as possible.

Aldric

I don't think it's absurd to expect (where money is involved anyway) full disclosure as to what you're buying. In the past, Aetolia has been known for being pretty good at offering refunds and whatnot when things get iffy like this. Would a refund, or offer to make things better maybe have been considered if the subject was approached in a different manner? Who knows.

Can you blame somebody though for being a little mad after dropping $600 on something and it not being exactly what they thought it was though?

Rashar

I dunno I don't see Raz upstairs rubbing his hands greedily while erasing the pertinent information from the announce post.

I'd imagine he assumed you would understand it was based off the already existing -Aetolia- skills (not Imperian's), just as Moirean assumed it was something different.

Mistakes do not equal deception, and being called a liar sucks.

ETA: Yeah the cool down was mentioned, but maybe because that's an addition to the regular track skills and so important to note? Not sure.

Aldric

I'd agree that this falls more into mistake category than deception, but even so, when a mistake is made in most businesses (IRE is still a business and whatnot) an attempt to make it better is usually offered.

Seeing as what you buy in Aetolia has 0 physical value in real life whatsoever, putting down the game or refusing service (like you would any other business) is essentially like throwing your money away, and that's tough. It's not like you can be dissatisfied with the product and sell it to somebody else that would enjoy it. I've probably only spent about $600ish on Aetolia over the last 7 years or so, but when you average that out it's less than a subscription to WoW or something similar would be.

Dropping $600 in one night though? I don't know about you, but if I was running a business selling text and had customers willing to drop that much at a time with a chance to continue doing it in the future, previous squabbles aside, I'd be doing what I could to make sure they keep spending their money.

Lim

Yeah, though my guess is that Raz does not have the power to give money refunds, just credit ones. Which is why Moi was referred higher up via email.

Erzsebet

I also suspect, though I can't speak for the admin, that if she went in calling people liars and spewing such venom as was displayed here, they might be less than inclined to offer such solutions. Traditionally, 'hey, I have this problem, could we maybe get this looked at' is much more effective than a string of expletives and dirty names.

As a note, I don't know for sure she started out that hostile and neither do I know how fast she descended to being hostile, so, grain of salt, and all.

Oleis

The only information missing is that it does not lead a group. We fully acknowledge that. But, as others have agreed, that's the basic paradigm for other track abilities right now. The exclusion of that information isn't an attempt to mislead by any means -- it's at best a natural assumption and at worst an oversight. 

We cannot combat every potential misconception when releasing an artifact. The appropriate thing to do is ask for clarification if you're unsure. To refund a transaction because the "free" additional items (because this is a bonus promotion, not a direct artifact purchase or something similar) are unsatisfactory is missing the point. While people may buy credits specifically to receive the promotional items, we've delivered on the inherent promise: credits for cash.

In three and a half years as a volunteer, I'm not aware of any sort of cash refund that didn't involve identity theft. If this were a more widespread problem, or if the situation at hand involved some kind of legitimate bait-and-switch, we'd be 1000% more likely to investigate in-game solutions.

Carivah

Moirean said:

Customers should NOT have to triple-check to ensure they aren't getting screwed before they spend HUNDREDS of dollars.

This part keeps bothering me.

If I'm dropping even one-hundred dollars on a thing, I'm going to look up every piece of fine print I can find, ask questions, and get second opinions. Triple- and quadruple-checking. That's a lot of money to spend at one time.

I can't even imagine spending the actual amount being discussed and then finding the purchased object doesn't live up to my assumptions, because it feels like any assumptions at all are a luxury that can't be afforded in this context.

Hindsight doesn't give money back, but sometimes hindsight's all that's left.

Konnorn

Found this on the side http://www.onlineshoppingrights.co.uk/safe-online-shopping-know-your-rights.html

"Distance Selling refers to sales made via mail order, over the telephone, on the Internet or via a digital television- basically where there isn't any face-to-face contact between the seller and the buyer.

The regulations state that the consumer must be given clear information about the goods or services on sale before they buy. Unless they have agreed otherwise, the goods should be delivered within 30 days.

Consumers are also allowed a 7-day cooling off period, during which they can change their mind and withdraw from the 'contract' without giving reason. For services, the 7 working day cooling off period starts after the day the order was originally made. If the services already began within these initial 7 days anyway, then the right to cancel ends when the service begins. In the event of the consumer deciding to cancel, the notification should be made to the supplier, and ideally be done in writing (either via email or letter) and sent to the supplier. The supplier should then refund the consumer within 30 days."

That seems to be for the UK though, so not sure if it applies to America, or even if it applies to the situation at hand at all. I'm just happy I'm too broke to buy credits. If I had wasted any money on artifacts or credits and then be treated poorly for having a complaint, yeah, I wouldn't be happy.

Not saying who is right and who is not, I just think that if someone has a complaint, no matter what it is about, you should listen and take action in the form of refunds. It's just right.

Erzsebet

I don't agree with a blanket policy that says complaint = refund. I complain about aetolia-things all the time, that doesn't (and shouldn't) entitle me to a refund of anything.

In this instance, Aetolia delivered what it promised, it's not the administrations fault that she made assumptions about which version of track it uses.

ETA: If it's useless to her as is, she could also tradein the artifact crop for additional credits. Yay, free credits?

Trager

You seem to be forgetting a very large portion of this entire affair. Moirean bought and paid for CREDITS. She was given CREDITS. She was not cheated, she was not duped. Any special 'bonus' artifacts they give out are just that - BONUS. She paid for a product, and got said product. Luckily for her, she got a little something extra.

Malok

I just sincerely hope that all parties involved in this learn something from it, and don't just blow it off as whatever. Having played these games on and off for the better part of 12 to 14 years, I can say this is not the first time something like this has happened. But like any mistake, one can only move on and try to learn from it.

I once spent $600 on Imperian. I did a lot of research before doing it though, most of it was spent on lessons, but I did buy two artifacts with it. One of them ended up being bugged. Different situation, yeah, but also similar. Any amount of money you spend into IRE is no longer yours, and its always a risk in its own way. This is not the fault of @Razmael or @Oleis. Do I think they could do a better job handling this situation? Certainly.

Everyone who works on these games is human, though, they make mistakes all the time. They are not robots. They are also not perfect, and if you want your money to be spent on perfection 100% of the time, then you are just in the wrong place.

On the topic of the ability being like the one in Imperian, that is very incorrect as @Oleis said. I know when me and @Asaraii played back in the day, she lead us a lot into battle using that ability there, and if I recall, it could only be used to track to outdoors people there too, not indoors like was stated in this thread. Take that as you will.

Oleis

For the sake of reference, Imperian just auctioned an artifact pet mount that's capable of learning Track (as common pets cannot be mounted AND used to track, only one or the other. The "Track" AB file posted does not take the tamer with it). It went for 4060cr.

Areka

With the 'She paid for credits' thing - these kinds of promo are tricky grounds. Like the one with the translocator, prayer mat, and boots, if that's the only way or ability to obtain those limited, time-sensitive items - those items become the product of focus and the credits are the bonus (still a really nice bonus). That's the tricky ground with this kind of promotion and is just something I think should be kept in mind. Object focus vs credit purchase are different mindsets and purchasing styles so this becomes a weird overlap. Similar to the giftbag promos (where you're only buying the credits FOR the giftbag and the gamble, when you otherwise might not be buying credits, or would be waiting for a larger volume because they are a better deal in themselves).

Just a ramble. Otherwise though, always important to research when it comes to your money, and to *ask questions*. Even if you're think you're sure, ask.

Azzello

Honestly though, I think more people need to be a bit more responsible with their money. Before you spend however much you spend ($600 in the OPs case o.O) you should really figure out what exactly you are buying, I mean hell, I even sent an e-mail to support to ask questions about the Elite Membership ($25) before I actually bought it. There is nothing wrong with spending a lot of money on a game, or anything for that matter, that you get fulfillment from, but I think people need to be a little smarter before making a big purchase. Maybe I'm special, but support has been happy to answer my questions before I spend my money so I know exactly what I am going to get. It would sure save some people a lot of frustration!

Haven

I understand the two different purchasing styles and mentality but it doesn't change the simple fact that the product is credits. Always was. It's just that you the player try to game the promotion to obtain that sweet bonus combo you desire. In doing so, I've noticed players often forget what they're truly buying.

Because of this, players have a tendency with these mentalities to think the rules are suddenly different somehow when they are in fact the same and never changed. From what I've gathered in the posts so far was a whole lot of assuming. It sucks that the mistake was made, especially considering the sum of money, but I don't think anything deceptive was done on the company's part. They even informed her of the option of contacting their boss.

Could the administration have sweetened the pot for Moirean for her sincere mistake/assumption? Maybe but personally I wouldn't see a reason to reward an allegedly hostile party.

My two cents. 

Areka

It doesn't change the fact, no, but understanding your consumers and their mentalities when approaching products is an important part of a successful marketplace and conflict resolution. That's all.