Age of Dawn

2

Comments

  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Get some non lesser conflict out there and you'll see some more numbers too.
    image
    MoireanIshinFaerah
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie BraavosMember Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    : P
  • PlatoPlato Member Posts: 62 ✭✭
    ugh I wish people would stop thinking/saying that its all me that wants/wishes for the 'admins' to do this... Because I don't think they would nor would I want them to. But seeing a shift in power where Enorian was suddenly on the winning side and actually gave 'dem vampires' (love that @ashmer) an actual reason to worry would in my opinion be worthy of changing 'A midnight age' on the Aetolia.com website to 'Age of Dawn' and subsequently the dark pictures go to something more along the lines of what Achaea have. You're right @moirean I don't have any ideas at the moment. Which is why I started this thread. But I should have guessed that people would see this as an excuse to verbally harass me and further add to the notion that I'm some jerk that doesn't deserve a chance to voice an opinion, idea, concern, have a single person to talk to without being harassed, or even friends. (I know that concept is very scary for those plato-haters out there)
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We're not Plato hating, just against declaring it the age of dawn and posting data points plus observations
    image
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I honestly had no idea that is what you were asking for. I think cosmetic changes to reflect current game balance would be fine and several of us have asked for stuff like that already like with the simple village conquest system I suggested a few months ago.
    Ishin
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Plato-hating is so a word now.

    "Stop plato-hating, bishes!"

    "Buncha haters! #plato-hating"

    "Don't hate the plato, hate the game!"
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    KerrynPlatoMalok
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cos the Plato's goin hate hate hate
    He just wants to shake shake shake
    shake it off
    image
    KerrynMalokAldricTragerIshinErzsebet
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WHY DO I NEVER MAKE ANYONES LIST I CAN BEAT LOTS OF VAMPIRES TOO. SEXIST.
    Plato
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Because according to @Zsadist, aren't you mid-tier, @Aishia?
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    PlatoIshin
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    WHY DO I NEVER MAKE ANYONES LIST I CAN BEAT LOTS OF VAMPIRES TOO. SEXIST.

    We've gone over this Aishia..... YOU. DON'T. FIGHT. <3 Still lurvs you though. <3
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    PlatoIshin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From our behind the scenes work, it isn't to replace the dogma, or compete with the dogmas, of the guilds. It's simply to place the religious/zealot energy into a confined space separate from the city governance. There has historically been some pretty toxic bleed over with the city as a whole being ruled like an extension of the Luminaries or Daru and citizens of not zealous belief being treated pretty poorly if they don't just exist in silence. The Age of Dawn has been pushed on Enorian as a city long before Sabaelism was even dreamt of.

    Maybe I'm particular to it because I put off joining Enorian for IG years after getting GM, because Reka really didn't fit in. Got harassed enough by folk that I finally bit the bullet and joined to get folk off my back. Trying to help make a healthier space for more types of RP.

    I feel like Sabaelism has been prematurely pushed at this point in time since we have way too much work to do before it is really public-ready outside of the lore.

    What should be asked of the guilds is to understand the basics of what it is and to allow folk to participate if that's their cup of tea.
    image
    EmelleSarkis
  • ObynObyn Member Posts: 351 Immortal
    While I cannot speak for anyone else, I can tell you that Slyphe's statements were entirely motivated by his in character beliefs. In no way was it intended to come across as 'you guys need to step in line or else there will be action from up high', and I know he has explained that to at least one person who has asked.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obyn said:

    While I cannot speak for anyone else, I can tell you that Slyphe's statements were entirely motivated by his in character beliefs. In no way was it intended to come across as 'you guys need to step in line or else there will be action from up high', and I know he has explained that to at least one person who has asked.

    If you say it IC, people will take it IC. Doesn't mean they have to listen, but, I feel like sometimes you guys forget how much of an impact your IC roles' statements have on the characters in Aetolia.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    NolaMoireanMalokErzsebet
  • ObynObyn Member Posts: 351 Immortal
    I get what you're saying @Ishin, but what it comes down to, I think, is miscommunication, willfully or otherwise, on some level. In this instance, it appears that what was said ICly has been taken to mean something OOCly that it most certainly did not.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obyn said:

    I get what you're saying @Ishin, but what it comes down to, I think, is miscommunication, willfully or otherwise, on some level. In this instance, it appears that what was said ICly has been taken to mean something OOCly that it most certainly did not.

    I dig it, man. I know that's why you guys separated your celani from your divine shell to begin with. Just be careful that the statements your IC role makes doesn't end up turning the affiliated guilds into Syssin Jr.'s so far as plot being hinged on something. Like how we were with Severn/Shadowbound.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    @Kylan stated what has actually been bothering me for a long time about this whole Saebalism movement.

    The Daru have had existing RP for years. They have their own lore, their own identity, their own belief structure. In recent years, and even a bit prior to that, they were not going out of their way and shoving their ideals down other people's throats - this recent distasteful 'zealotry' in the city, was not even participated in by any Daru.

    Now, Saebalism just kind of appears, and that's nice for all of you guys, really, I get it. I'm not against it. I'm not exactly for it, either, but my character should have a choice whether or not she can abstain. There's been a lot of praise on how it allows freedom from that kind of restrictive, overbearing zealotry.

    I haven't seen that at all. I've seen the opposite, and only the opposite. So much so that it leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. My character has had to fight for the rights for her guild to freely exercise how they've always done things, and it seems like such a silly fight that should never have to happen.

    Saebalism talks about being for the Light - great - the Daru are for the Light too. That's where their similarities end, though, in terms of belief. As a guildmaster, I've felt the pressure more than anything, from the Divine - multiple - for my guild to conform. There's been guilt trips thrown around, one big one being, 'Well it's all about unity under one banner, we're stronger united, you don't want to be united?' That's a cheap blow, considering the Daru have been united, will continue to be united regardless of Saebalism, and are still working towards the same end, for the same cause. They're not opposing the new belief, they just don't want to be apart of it, and it doesn't make sense for them to.

    But even having explained that time and again, I'm getting tired of fighting, and it DOES feel Admin-mandated at that point, and I try to remind myself otherwise, but nothing removes the feeling that comes from having a whole Pantheon suddenly turning their attention to you, o' devoted servant of Light, and saying, you're not serving the Light anymore because you're not following this new faith. Not to mention how Divine that aren't even the guild's Patron are stepping in to directly give their input to try and encourage a conformity.

    Sorry, my experiences have all been relatively negative involving this entire ordeal. My guild, as a whole now, not just a handful of people, just want to continue to doing what they've always done without being 'bullied' into something else, and the resistance the Daru how shown on that level should say something. You want to make everyone else's playing experience better, fine. But now you're trying to dig into ours, and that's not cool to me.

    And I know someone is going to say, well it's just about allowing people to follow it if they want. If my guild doesn't want that, they shouldn't have to have that as part of their structure. The Daru are zealots, they're not really very malleable, as evidenced by their same, consistent beliefs.. since I started playing Nola nearly 4 RL years ago. Why haven't we changed? It works for us, and we enjoy it. Why should we change now for you, not ourselves.

    There has only been one God, recently, who has even tried to build a better understanding and form of communication between the Daru and this new push, and that is @Auresae, whose efforts I do so appreciate, but they did follow -all of this other bad stuff-.


    That being said, I'd think diversity would be a good thing for the city, and I feel the Gods are taking too much of a heavy hand in Enorian's new direction - regardless of whether or not they're directly involved, which may be the problem. As for the Age of Dawn having a conclusion - echoing everyone else, you'd be removing the entire point of conflict, and it's just never going to happen. You can't expect a whole entire faction of people playing the vampire world to just be suddenly be cured because of an event rather than a choice, since the game is RP-based, and that is their respective RP.

    MelanthaMoireanIshinErzsebet
  • PlatoPlato Member Posts: 62 ✭✭
    @kylan hrm seems I did misinterpret the definition of Age of Dawn thanks for clearing that up. However, I think you are also misinterpreting the Sabelism thing. If the Daru are going to be included and accepted in Sabelism, what good would it do to not teach Sabelism in the Daru? Its supposed to encompass all, how much would incorporating the ideal of coming together and being stronger do, if you don't practice or teach it? How much would it really change the Daru to practice being together and worshiping one set of divine instead of individuals? Which by the way you can still individually like one or the other divine. I also don't think they are saying you 'have' to do this. I think they are bringing a concept like Sabelism into the light orgs, in order to bring something new to the table so that the light orgs maybe get stronger, because they see that there is a big imbalance to light vs dark with dark on the winning side. Just as everyone was against light getting a 'win button' (even though that was also a misinterpretation) because it would screw the game. The dark side is 'winning' and soon it won't be fun because a lot of people don't even try on the light side at lesser leylines, just because the odds of winning are so skewed in the darks favor. Darkie numbers always outnumber the light guys. And people are still droppin off. People still stop playin for long periods of time. There are only a handful of people left who even still try and they aren't going to last forever. So what happens to Enorian and Duiran when there are no more fighters left? What happens to Spines and Loch when they just win every lesser non-contested? Simple the shadow gets a 'win button'. They will be mechanically stronger cause of ylem. The game will be irreversibly damaged and no longer fun cause the shadow will win.

    I don't know, maybe theres something about the Daru that I don't know that would go against a concept of belief that we gotta stick together and bring everyone together in order to stop the shadow from winning, but I don't know what it would be nor could I see why whatever it is, that couldn't be set aside for the greater good.
  • PlatoPlato Member Posts: 62 ✭✭
    @nola I think from your point of view you and the Daru are still trying to run the guild and its belief system as if neutrality still existed. Neutrality was done away with. It sucks, I loved being a neutral Druid who only cared if someone screwed with a forest. But it was done away with along with the whole druid guild. With their replacements the shamans, they got a new way of doing things. The Daru didn't. If I remember right Daru were one of the neutral guilds before. (Correct me if I'm wrong). But just because you've done things for a long time one way and fought for this right or that right, doesn't mean you shouldn't change. No one is trying to take rights from the Daru. They just want you to teach the idea of coming together to be stronger... Is that so bad?
    NolaArbreIshinAldricRivasJensenErzsebet
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭
    Areka said:


    What should be asked of the guilds is to understand the basics of what it is and to allow folk to participate if that's their cup of tea.

    That's the important part that Kylan argued for when we had our discussion with Slyphe - That the Daru -have- their core belief and there is no reason that Sabaelism can go hand-in-hand with it, rather than replacing the Daru identity with another. The impression I was left with IC and OOC was that Sabaelism is to be -the- doctrine for all of the Enorian guilds.. which is a weird thing to say to a guild that has a healthy identity/purpose. Not saying @Slyphe‌ was wrong, but that that is the impression I was left with.
    Obyn said:

    While I cannot speak for anyone else, I can tell you that Slyphe's statements were entirely motivated by his in character beliefs. In no way was it intended to come across as 'you guys need to step in line or else there will be action from up high', and I know he has explained that to at least one person who has asked.

    I can't claim to have asked. I mostly play on the side and observe things from a little distance, although I/Kylan still keep a close eye on matters for the Daru, but I can quite happily say that that is how it has come across - from interactions I have observed and from comments I've caught from other players (IC and OOC) in the Daru.

    Not against the idea, I think it's an interesting idea, but I think it belongs in that nebulous space where Orders sit. A side faith, not the core doctrine. (Remember that the Daru also have their identity based upon the teachings of one of the Gods in the first place..)

    Ishin
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Plato - No, that's incorrect. The Daru have never been a neutral guild, nor have they ever supported neutrality in any way. They have always been far more black and white than any other.
    IshinErzsebet
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭
    Plato said:

    @kylan hrm seems I did misinterpret the definition of Age of Dawn thanks for clearing that up. However, I think you are also misinterpreting the Sabelism thing. If the Daru are going to be included and accepted in Sabelism, what good would it do to not teach Sabelism in the Daru? Its supposed to encompass all, how much would incorporating the ideal of coming together and being stronger do, if you don't practice or teach it? How much would it really change the Daru to practice being together and worshiping one set of divine instead of individuals? Which by the way you can still individually like one or the other divine. I also don't think they are saying you 'have' to do this. I think they are bringing a concept like Sabelism into the light orgs, in order to bring something new to the table so that the light orgs maybe get stronger, because they see that there is a big imbalance to light vs dark with dark on the winning side. Just as everyone was against light getting a 'win button' (even though that was also a misinterpretation) because it would screw the game. The dark side is 'winning' and soon it won't be fun because a lot of people don't even try on the light side at lesser leylines, just because the odds of winning are so skewed in the darks favor. Darkie numbers always outnumber the light guys. And people are still droppin off. People still stop playin for long periods of time. There are only a handful of people left who even still try and they aren't going to last forever. So what happens to Enorian and Duiran when there are no more fighters left? What happens to Spines and Loch when they just win every lesser non-contested? Simple the shadow gets a 'win button'. They will be mechanically stronger cause of ylem. The game will be irreversibly damaged and no longer fun cause the shadow will win.

    I don't know, maybe theres something about the Daru that I don't know that would go against a concept of belief that we gotta stick together and bring everyone together in order to stop the shadow from winning, but I don't know what it would be nor could I see why whatever it is, that couldn't be set aside for the greater good.

    I've not looked too closely into Sabaelism, so I won't claim I have more than superficial knowledge of it. I have had no reason to look closely into it because Kylan knows who he is. The Daru know their identity.

    I'm not about to say that the Daru see themselves as separate from Enorian - it is quite the opposite. The guild has been historically a major proponent of Enorian, if you count me myself leading the city for 50-70 IC years, or the guild being an active part of the city.

    The difference is that the Daru are Zealots, they will strike out on their own. They will have differences of view with Enorian. There have been moments in time where the Daru have been in direct conflict of opinion with Enorian and times where the conflict got to the point where the Daru entered a siege mentality towards Enorian. Again, this does not make them against Sabaelism, it doesn't make them for it either.

    The bottom line is the Daru know who they are, they know their purpose.

    The idea of Sabaelism will be agreeable to some of them, some will see it as unnecessary. (Just as not all Daru see fit to follow Auresae.) Telling the Daru they must fall in step with everyone else in belief (Even superficially) changes their identity as a fundamentally independent Monastery. They support Enorian as long as Enorian shares purpose with them.
    Plato said:

    @nola I think from your point of view you and the Daru are still trying to run the guild and its belief system as if neutrality still existed. Neutrality was done away with. It sucks, I loved being a neutral Druid who only cared if someone screwed with a forest. But it was done away with along with the whole druid guild. With their replacements the shamans, they got a new way of doing things. The Daru didn't. If I remember right Daru were one of the neutral guilds before. (Correct me if I'm wrong). But just because you've done things for a long time one way and fought for this right or that right, doesn't mean you shouldn't change. No one is trying to take rights from the Daru. They just want you to teach the idea of coming together to be stronger... Is that so bad?

    The Daru still trying to hold their belief system has nothing to do with neutrality. The Daru belief structure makes it literally impossible for them to be neutral. The Daru have never been Neutral, have always been for "the Light" or "Purity". The Daru teach being stronger individually. Their fundamental ideal is based on Purity/Perfection which is self-improvement and improvement of the Monastery and Enorian as a whole. (Enorian to a lesser extent as people get uppity if you push them to improve in your eyes.)

    Ultimately, it boils down to this: Enorian wants to improve? Great, the Daru support that, they support the ends of the Light. That does not mean they will join Enorian on every action, just the same as they don't expect the Luminaries/Templars/Ascendril to join them in all of their endeavors.
    HavenIshin
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭
    A quick separate post directed at @Plato‌:

    This debate could get dangerously close to one that should take place IC, so don't try to argue the case for Sabaelism. Discuss the idea, but don't argue the idea why the Daru could/should adopt it. I am trying my best to argue against Sabaelism, but explain the Daru perspective in belief structure/identity, which I could not readily argue in an IC capacity.
    Ishin
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Plato said:

    So what happens to Enorian and Duiran when there are no more fighters left?

    Bloodloch will run in waving their banners, slaying the guards, burning up the forests and blowing up shops while making all the children orphans of war and then feeding on their tears! Let the Shadows rule!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


    Plato said:

    The dark side is 'winning' and soon it won't be fun because a lot of people don't even try on the light side at lesser leylines, just because the odds of winning are so skewed in the darks favor. Darkie numbers always outnumber the light guys

    In all seriousness though. The darkie side isn't 'winning' as often as you think @Plato. You may not be aware of it, but the "winning" flip flops to either side depending on the time of day. I cannot count how many times I've seen a leyline battle with 9 lifers, but darkies can only must 4 or 5. Also, vice versa. I think making a blanket statement such as that is what puts people off of fighting FOR a side. Not to mention, I CANNOT count how many times I've asked why someone doesn't fight on lifer side or why they left lifer side and joined darkie (and began fighting) and the consensus I have gotten 3/5 times is: The lifer side doesn't encourage people to fight as good/well as darkie side does. It seems that alot of the times when someone asks for help on lifer side, people either blow them off or go "LOLS. Lrn2fite properly newb!" Whereas darkie side goes, "Here's what you're doing wrong, here's how you fix it. Lets fight again""

    Also, you can't get mad at people quitting the game, because we all have real lives going on. Hell, @Rashar's in the jungle, @Trager's off to school, @Moirean just doesn't seem to PK anymore because of her busy life, @Ashmer is off coding Oasis. I could go on and on about people leaving the PK scene for abit because of other things in life or projects that they take on.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    JensenAshmerTragerIshin
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PK numbers are super low on all sides right now and nobody on the dark side is doing it to bring in more ylem. Those who show up do it because they like pvp or they want points for their orgs incentive programs. Light and life will be just fine.
    image
    NolaArbreZsadistIshin
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Immortal
    Working with the Daru has been something which I have appreciated from my position in regards to not only putting relation and understanding behind an objective for a means of growth in the overall atmosphere of Enorian but a boost to means for Roleplay and understanding to those new to the "Light" and "Age of Dawn".

    The way I will put it in relation for all of you is that the mantle of "Good" - or in the case of some Enorian organizations "Righteous Good" is alot for someone to soak in who is new to it, with all the divine and individual zeal which can be displayed by the faithful of a specific divine and their methodology in regards to the "Role of Enorian".

    By integrating these aspects into a central belief and leaving individual faith (choice of divinity) afterwards, it really lays down a foundation for the belief system of Enorian for the player/character to then decide "How they will serve the Light"... By no means is it forcing the hand of belief, or mandating that a person must roleplay a specific way, but it is making the playability of the "Light" and "Age of Dawn" roleplaying tool a tangible product for all to dip their toes into and develop.

    As I have been presenting it to the Daru and how I ask those present to understand it, is be accepting and patient. Change is scary for everyone, but I assure you that amidst argumentative statements and opinions that all things are considered by those higher up and we truly desire to take advice and create an environment that is engaging and offers the ability for you the players to create roleplay arcs and fit yourself and organizations within.

    This is merely a way to help with some very important aspects which will benefit Enorian by making the environment/beliefs -user friendly- and easier to understand by being displayed under a single banner the divinity represent.

    I encourage those who wish to discuss further to read of Sabaelism as a tool in game, and try and take a moment to consider how it will be beneficial all around. As always if you have questions we are here for you, and I am pleased this has become a discussion because we should voice our opinions, but let us do so with open minds.
    ObynIshinNolaEmelle
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Sarosh said:


    By integrating these aspects into a central belief and leaving individual faith (choice of divinity) afterwards, it really lays down a foundation for the belief system of Enorian for the player/character to then decide "How they will serve the Light"... By no means is it forcing the hand of belief, or mandating that a person must roleplay a specific way, but it is making the playability of the "Light" and "Age of Dawn" roleplaying tool a tangible product for all to dip their toes into and develop.

    As I have been presenting it to the Daru and how I ask those present to understand it, is be accepting and patient. Change is scary for everyone, but I assure you that amidst argumentative statements and opinions that all things are considered by those higher up and we truly desire to take advice and create an environment that is engaging and offers the ability for you the players to create roleplay arcs and fit yourself and organizations within.

    This is merely a way to help with some very important aspects which will benefit Enorian by making the environment/beliefs -user friendly- and easier to understand by being displayed under a single banner the divinity represent.

    I encourage those who wish to discuss further to read of Sabaelism as a tool in game, and try and take a moment to consider how it will be beneficial all around. As always if you have questions we are here for you, and I am pleased this has become a discussion because we should voice our opinions, but let us do so with open minds.

    I understand where you are coming from @Sarosh‌ , but I don't think the Daru stance is from a fear of change. It's actually quite the opposite, they can embrace it as part of a greater whole. The difference here is they know and have always known who they are, they know how they fit into Enorian and the world in general. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate it - the Daru are based on the teachings of a Divine already part of the Sabaelism movement.

    So I suppose from my PoV, the point I am making is there has been an issue with the question framing this discussion. In my opinion it should be "How do the Daru belief fit into Sabaelism?" rather than "How does Sabaelism fit into the Daru?" just changing that framing question changes its application straight away.

    I'll give an example:

    If you frame the question to being how to fit Sabaelism into the Daru, you are then competing against their existing identity - Warriors of Fire, sort of a sub-sect of Auresae/Rahn in ideology.

    If you frame it as fitting the Daru into Sabaelism, it becomes a matter of (Sort of) fitting them under the banner of Auresae. People might say that "Lumping guilds with individual Divine is sucky" but that is the foundation of the Daru faith/identity. Of course, there are Daru that worship other Divine. This is where Sabaelism fits in (From my point of view).

    That is how, as a player, I can see it working quite beneficially. I don't really think Sabaelism replacing the internal identity will work, but highlighting how the Daru fit in with a greater identity will make it more inclusive, rather than alienating.
    IshinArekaEmelle
Sign In or Register to comment.