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I went into spinesreach expecting to cultivate that same vibe but there is some truth there in that the sides aren't perfectly balanced. Once bloodloch and spines teamed up again the numbers swayed more towards darkies. However changing that isn't something you just decree from an administrative standpoint.
I don't even really know what this thread is asking for. There could be some tangible things done, sure, but I'm not seeing constructive ideas for that from you Plato. Change isn't just something admin can mandate - not only would that take agency away from the players, it's such a nebulous request. My advice is focus on specific and tangible goals and changes...and you will probably discover that a lifers are already working kn stuff like this. Areka for example has been doing a ton with Templars. Research around and you will discover stuff isn't as dire as you are claiming.
(Flattered, though, @Arbre.)
To set the record straight, too, @Plato, I haven't fought in Praenomen ever. Bloodborn (RITUOS SORRY) represent, bb.
Anyway: As someone who plays on both sides (swings both ways, one might say) I'm very happy with the promise of the new religious angle. It's MUCH more open in terms of roleplay direction and gives a much wider range of characters something to stand on like RAR UNICORNS YOU UNICORNSING VAMPIRES (or whatever your personal expression of that is.) It allows for shades of grey (less than fifty, please), a George R.R. Martin-esque world where the "good" guys aren't necessarily "good," but just also folk that live their lives, et cetera.
I think a lot of this has to do with perception - the light side is certainly CAPABLE of fielding the kinds of numbers and quality of fighters that you see on the dark side, it just hasn't happened in a little while with certain dynamics and people moving, being in Thailand, et cetera. It'll swing back the other way at some point, when people get other people really interested in smacking down dem vampurrs.
It's like football. I had absolutely no interest in Football until A) the Seahawks won the Super Bowl, and
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
"Stop plato-hating, bishes!"
"Buncha haters! #plato-hating"
"Don't hate the plato, hate the game!"
He just wants to shake shake shake
shake it off
I personally like the struggle and the theme we have now. AND ultimately, the impetus is on us to inspire more people to go lifer. We're working on it, a lot of us. I happen to be overseas right now with no real connection for a few more weeks, but things were -definitely- improving ( and will again! ). Attitude is a huge huge part of it, and getting a win button isn't the answer.
Just my quick thoughts before I head into the jungle to try and not get eaten by a tiger, bitten by a cobra, or trampled by a giant bull elephant. ( It is mating season! )
The main thing that confuses me about it right now is that it feels like the admins are telling the Enorian guilds "You must comply with this belief structure" or, at least, that is how it comes across based on @Slyphe joining discussions the Daru have had.
The way I understand it, Sabaelism is supposed to be all-encompassing, so the Daru belief structure and the various teachings of the Gods are covered under this one blanket. In theory, this also covers the Daru belief structure, so why is it being insinuated that the Daru should be teaching Sabaelism rather than their current identity? Their current identity fits in, so I don't understand. Add into that that the Daru have never really been a guild that has struggled for their identity and I don't get it.
Anyway, as I said in my previous post, if you attain the Age of Dawn, you'd have to give Enorian a new identity. I think your confusion, Plato, is what you think the Age of Dawn is and what it actually is.
To clear up confusion, I'll give it its original definition (Which is why I am confused it is widespread).
Age of Dawn is the age in which the last bastion of darkness has fallen (Illustrated in the Revelation as a dark spire). The Daru view it as the age where corruption is basically eradicated, undeath is gone, etc. The Age of Dawn is where all battles are won, so the Daru, Luminaries, would end up as the "Peacekeepers" in such an age, being vigilant to any arts of corruption, and so on. It might be interesting conceptually to have a last "resistance" of darkness, but it would be mechanically boring.
So it is pretty much "And we're done! Roll credits!" or more simply "GG, WP".
Maybe I'm particular to it because I put off joining Enorian for IG years after getting GM, because Reka really didn't fit in. Got harassed enough by folk that I finally bit the bullet and joined to get folk off my back. Trying to help make a healthier space for more types of RP.
I feel like Sabaelism has been prematurely pushed at this point in time since we have way too much work to do before it is really public-ready outside of the lore.
What should be asked of the guilds is to understand the basics of what it is and to allow folk to participate if that's their cup of tea.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
The Daru have had existing RP for years. They have their own lore, their own identity, their own belief structure. In recent years, and even a bit prior to that, they were not going out of their way and shoving their ideals down other people's throats - this recent distasteful 'zealotry' in the city, was not even participated in by any Daru.
Now, Saebalism just kind of appears, and that's nice for all of you guys, really, I get it. I'm not against it. I'm not exactly for it, either, but my character should have a choice whether or not she can abstain. There's been a lot of praise on how it allows freedom from that kind of restrictive, overbearing zealotry.
I haven't seen that at all. I've seen the opposite, and only the opposite. So much so that it leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. My character has had to fight for the rights for her guild to freely exercise how they've always done things, and it seems like such a silly fight that should never have to happen.
Saebalism talks about being for the Light - great - the Daru are for the Light too. That's where their similarities end, though, in terms of belief. As a guildmaster, I've felt the pressure more than anything, from the Divine - multiple - for my guild to conform. There's been guilt trips thrown around, one big one being, 'Well it's all about unity under one banner, we're stronger united, you don't want to be united?' That's a cheap blow, considering the Daru have been united, will continue to be united regardless of Saebalism, and are still working towards the same end, for the same cause. They're not opposing the new belief, they just don't want to be apart of it, and it doesn't make sense for them to.
But even having explained that time and again, I'm getting tired of fighting, and it DOES feel Admin-mandated at that point, and I try to remind myself otherwise, but nothing removes the feeling that comes from having a whole Pantheon suddenly turning their attention to you, o' devoted servant of Light, and saying, you're not serving the Light anymore because you're not following this new faith. Not to mention how Divine that aren't even the guild's Patron are stepping in to directly give their input to try and encourage a conformity.
Sorry, my experiences have all been relatively negative involving this entire ordeal. My guild, as a whole now, not just a handful of people, just want to continue to doing what they've always done without being 'bullied' into something else, and the resistance the Daru how shown on that level should say something. You want to make everyone else's playing experience better, fine. But now you're trying to dig into ours, and that's not cool to me.
And I know someone is going to say, well it's just about allowing people to follow it if they want. If my guild doesn't want that, they shouldn't have to have that as part of their structure. The Daru are zealots, they're not really very malleable, as evidenced by their same, consistent beliefs.. since I started playing Nola nearly 4 RL years ago. Why haven't we changed? It works for us, and we enjoy it. Why should we change now for you, not ourselves.
There has only been one God, recently, who has even tried to build a better understanding and form of communication between the Daru and this new push, and that is @Auresae, whose efforts I do so appreciate, but they did follow -all of this other bad stuff-.
That being said, I'd think diversity would be a good thing for the city, and I feel the Gods are taking too much of a heavy hand in Enorian's new direction - regardless of whether or not they're directly involved, which may be the problem. As for the Age of Dawn having a conclusion - echoing everyone else, you'd be removing the entire point of conflict, and it's just never going to happen. You can't expect a whole entire faction of people playing the vampire world to just be suddenly be cured because of an event rather than a choice, since the game is RP-based, and that is their respective RP.
I don't know, maybe theres something about the Daru that I don't know that would go against a concept of belief that we gotta stick together and bring everyone together in order to stop the shadow from winning, but I don't know what it would be nor could I see why whatever it is, that couldn't be set aside for the greater good.
Not against the idea, I think it's an interesting idea, but I think it belongs in that nebulous space where Orders sit. A side faith, not the core doctrine. (Remember that the Daru also have their identity based upon the teachings of one of the Gods in the first place..)
I'm not about to say that the Daru see themselves as separate from Enorian - it is quite the opposite. The guild has been historically a major proponent of Enorian, if you count me myself leading the city for 50-70 IC years, or the guild being an active part of the city.
The difference is that the Daru are Zealots, they will strike out on their own. They will have differences of view with Enorian. There have been moments in time where the Daru have been in direct conflict of opinion with Enorian and times where the conflict got to the point where the Daru entered a siege mentality towards Enorian. Again, this does not make them against Sabaelism, it doesn't make them for it either.
The bottom line is the Daru know who they are, they know their purpose.
The idea of Sabaelism will be agreeable to some of them, some will see it as unnecessary. (Just as not all Daru see fit to follow Auresae.) Telling the Daru they must fall in step with everyone else in belief (Even superficially) changes their identity as a fundamentally independent Monastery. They support Enorian as long as Enorian shares purpose with them. The Daru still trying to hold their belief system has nothing to do with neutrality. The Daru belief structure makes it literally impossible for them to be neutral. The Daru have never been Neutral, have always been for "the Light" or "Purity". The Daru teach being stronger individually. Their fundamental ideal is based on Purity/Perfection which is self-improvement and improvement of the Monastery and Enorian as a whole. (Enorian to a lesser extent as people get uppity if you push them to improve in your eyes.)
Ultimately, it boils down to this: Enorian wants to improve? Great, the Daru support that, they support the ends of the Light. That does not mean they will join Enorian on every action, just the same as they don't expect the Luminaries/Templars/Ascendril to join them in all of their endeavors.
This debate could get dangerously close to one that should take place IC, so don't try to argue the case for Sabaelism. Discuss the idea, but don't argue the idea why the Daru could/should adopt it. I am trying my best to argue against Sabaelism, but explain the Daru perspective in belief structure/identity, which I could not readily argue in an IC capacity.
In all seriousness though. The darkie side isn't 'winning' as often as you think @Plato. You may not be aware of it, but the "winning" flip flops to either side depending on the time of day. I cannot count how many times I've seen a leyline battle with 9 lifers, but darkies can only must 4 or 5. Also, vice versa. I think making a blanket statement such as that is what puts people off of fighting FOR a side. Not to mention, I CANNOT count how many times I've asked why someone doesn't fight on lifer side or why they left lifer side and joined darkie (and began fighting) and the consensus I have gotten 3/5 times is: The lifer side doesn't encourage people to fight as good/well as darkie side does. It seems that alot of the times when someone asks for help on lifer side, people either blow them off or go "LOLS. Lrn2fite properly newb!" Whereas darkie side goes, "Here's what you're doing wrong, here's how you fix it. Lets fight again""
Also, you can't get mad at people quitting the game, because we all have real lives going on. Hell, @Rashar's in the jungle, @Trager's off to school, @Moirean just doesn't seem to PK anymore because of her busy life, @Ashmer is off coding Oasis. I could go on and on about people leaving the PK scene for abit because of other things in life or projects that they take on.
The way I will put it in relation for all of you is that the mantle of "Good" - or in the case of some Enorian organizations "Righteous Good" is alot for someone to soak in who is new to it, with all the divine and individual zeal which can be displayed by the faithful of a specific divine and their methodology in regards to the "Role of Enorian".
By integrating these aspects into a central belief and leaving individual faith (choice of divinity) afterwards, it really lays down a foundation for the belief system of Enorian for the player/character to then decide "How they will serve the Light"... By no means is it forcing the hand of belief, or mandating that a person must roleplay a specific way, but it is making the playability of the "Light" and "Age of Dawn" roleplaying tool a tangible product for all to dip their toes into and develop.
As I have been presenting it to the Daru and how I ask those present to understand it, is be accepting and patient. Change is scary for everyone, but I assure you that amidst argumentative statements and opinions that all things are considered by those higher up and we truly desire to take advice and create an environment that is engaging and offers the ability for you the players to create roleplay arcs and fit yourself and organizations within.
This is merely a way to help with some very important aspects which will benefit Enorian by making the environment/beliefs -user friendly- and easier to understand by being displayed under a single banner the divinity represent.
I encourage those who wish to discuss further to read of Sabaelism as a tool in game, and try and take a moment to consider how it will be beneficial all around. As always if you have questions we are here for you, and I am pleased this has become a discussion because we should voice our opinions, but let us do so with open minds.
So I suppose from my PoV, the point I am making is there has been an issue with the question framing this discussion. In my opinion it should be "How do the Daru belief fit into Sabaelism?" rather than "How does Sabaelism fit into the Daru?" just changing that framing question changes its application straight away.
I'll give an example:
If you frame the question to being how to fit Sabaelism into the Daru, you are then competing against their existing identity - Warriors of Fire, sort of a sub-sect of Auresae/Rahn in ideology.
If you frame it as fitting the Daru into Sabaelism, it becomes a matter of (Sort of) fitting them under the banner of Auresae. People might say that "Lumping guilds with individual Divine is sucky" but that is the foundation of the Daru faith/identity. Of course, there are Daru that worship other Divine. This is where Sabaelism fits in (From my point of view).
That is how, as a player, I can see it working quite beneficially. I don't really think Sabaelism replacing the internal identity will work, but highlighting how the Daru fit in with a greater identity will make it more inclusive, rather than alienating.