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Recently (last liaison round if I remember right) Carnifex got a neat upgrade and more skills added.. soo This might sound like an A$$ question but I really dont mean for it to be but I cant think of another way to word it..
Was the neat upgrade to just let them spam SWAT over and over?
Yarel uses Savagery Swat on you.
Yarel swings a blackened warhammer around and slams it painfully into your side. The force of the
blow sends you cartwheeling through the air towards the west.
Yarel uses Deathlore Soulthirst Strike on you.
Knifing pain rips through your being as Yarel's weapon hungrily devours part of your soul.
You slam painfully into the wall blocking the exit.
at 40 audit as syssin, (H:1957 blunt)
So my main question really is.. Do we really have to wait for liaison round to open for someone to look at the numbers on swat? As that swat was without the other skill Carnifexs can combo with which people are telling me is like another 500.. plus .69 balance..
As granted its a huge help in group but when you 1v1 a carnifex and its the only skill HE uses.. its kind of like WHY should I even bother (yes I was fighting aldric for 10 minutes earlier and its only skill he used nothing else)... I know first hand carnifex skills are awesome for 1v1 but when they start just swat spamming because THEY all know its over 2k damage its blahhhhhhh... I know arties will play into that effect too
Like I said.. Not trying to be an unicorn far from it, Just wondering if this was intended to be so high a damage
It is worth mentioning that density will stop it UNLESS the person has the HAMMER FORCE defense, which is temporary and has a cooldown. (I think it has a cooldown. I'm not where I can log in, so please verify.)
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
And then in group its the only attack being spammed so its pointless to even get involved Since its 2k damage, prone and .69 balance knock..
Usage: HAMMER SWAT
Knocks a target towards the specified direction. Will not work if the target has the density defence, unless you are using BruteForce (AB SAVAGERY BRUTEFORCE).
Note: Unlike other forced move skills, this will still work if there's an obstruction in the way. However, the enemy will slam into the obstruction instead.
5141/6631h 4233/4595m 100e 99w 35.68%/5119380xp 10
Ezalor uses Savagery Swat on you.
Ezalor swings a horn-hilted warhammer around and slams it painfully into your side. The force of the blow sends you cartwheeling through the air towards the west.
Health Lost: 2522, blunt, brute
You slam painfully into the wall blocking the exit.
Health Lost: 532, blunt, brute
2087/6631h 4233/4595m 100e 99w 35.68%/5119380xp 10
For reference my audit is:
+-- Resistances ------------------------+
Cutting | 25% 0% 40% 39%
Blunt | 25% 0% 40% 39%
Kendri, your audit is rather low, so you'll be taking a lot of blunt damage. Have a monk hit you and you'll see just as high numbers.
Edit: to address Carni damage overall - it scales badly right now. Super high str and arti weapon runes can make the damage very high. However, base amounts are meh. A lot of us have discussed this already, but it's not simply "x skill is op" but rather the long-standing "artis scale badly" issue that we see crop up in classes all the time.
As said before I spent around 10 mins fighting aldric and thats ALL he was doing, swatting me into his own block.. he didnt use warhound or ANY other skills.. The class just got a pretty neat overhaul but yet ALL Carnifexs are just abusing one skill.. Which technically could use a 20/30 second cooldown per person as why do you need to swat someone more then once every 30ish seconds? You only really should be swatting people to get them out of the room which the skill is intended for, or to slow them down a little.. not to be spammed 110%
And before anyone says owt, As mentioned before in my first post.. Not trying to be an unicorn and thats my end of the matter as dont want to derail short questions!
I feel like the overwhelming use of Carnifex Swat is from the growing numbers of monk and the subsequent damage they bring on lifer side. Fair enough, I suppose, but food for thought...
As a lifer combatant I try and prioritize my audit to account for cutting because of the high numbers of BB that have grown prevalent in most group fights. Likewise, outside of Shaman, most lifer classes do not have a tendency to dish out heavy cutting damage, and as such their audit would be most suited leaning towards blunt resistances. Relatively a small issue on the whole, but in the grand scheme of things these are scenarios that heavy fighters take into account. Having to now take into regard an astounding blunt damage output is a bit of an upset.
As a Templar, with armor preference to blunt, aura protection and with AURA FOCUS to stop unwanted movement, I was still easily autobashed to death by someone with zero artifacts. I've had a few people attempt the tactic against me , but so far Draiman was the only one wise enough to use reckless (AB RECKLESS, allows Carnifex to ignore a single broken arm). This was with my using my ylem core AND my crystal tattoo.
All in all, I don't believe there is a singular good reason you can put up that justifies the damage that Swat is putting out, and I am fully in support of a fix somewhere along the line without waiting for a liaison round. It is very much a game-changing ability that more and more non-fighters are using to take down 'seasoned vets' if you will.
My OWN edit: Yes, monks will put out that kind of damage. But the majority of people I have seen aren't too keen on parrying either their head or their torso, which will stop a huge amount of the monks initial burst. Most of spirit-side monks aren't as practiced in multi-targeting limbs so far (At least not that I saw fighting with them) so a huuuuuge chunk of that damage can almost always be mitigated right off the bat.
Ahem.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
You are Carnisex. Not Carnifex. Get it rite, nub.
This is the typical forums mountain-out-of-a-molehill thing, where everyone freaks out about something they haven't seen before, decrying it as OP until they figure out how to deal with it, and then it subsides into silence. This happens every few weeks about skill x, y, z.
Re swat: You aren't progressing your momentum while doing it and it's easy to avoid - just shield or apply mass. All damage momentum is then lost as the Carni has to use force again or break your shield - and force has a 3rd person message, so it fairly clearly telegraphs it coming. Flat damage only works as a killing tactic if someone can keep it up consistently. A single round lost and the target can heal right back up. See @Nalor citing 10 minutes of fighting against it (clearly it wasn't killing him).
@Draiman - I was referring to Carni skills as a whole. There's some funky scaling at high-level str/arti that ramps up the damage a lot. 3k for swat is obviously too high, but I think it's a bit silly and knee-jerk (something we're prone to annoyingly too often on forums) to just scream nerf without even posting str and weapon stats, especially since we already KNOW there's some problems with scaling damage amounts.
So before the topic gets closed once again, Can we go back onto short questions?
Jumpkick and Tekura damage is a completely separate conversation and broad parallel comparisons won't help us here at all.
Also, FOR SCIENCE:
20:47:59.024
You use Savagery BruteForce.
Your muscles bulge with deadly strength as your tighten your grip upon your hammer.
You have gained the bruteforce defense.
Balance Used: 2.32 seconds
20:48:39.941
As your muscles begin to tire, you cease to drive all your force behind your blows.
Your bruteforce defense has been stripped.
That's long enough to just about kill someone with the level of damage we're talking about.
Also #2: "You can spam shield" is not a valid argument for a defense against a tactic. We're trying to move away from spamming shield, and in this case you can't mount an offense in reply to this. You have to literally just keep the shielded defense up at all times. Tactical shielding is appropriate, like to throw off a Syssin's hypnosis chain or to turtle through a Sentinel/Templar's burst. This isn't like that.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
Re it being a bug - I frankly always thought it was pretty funny, but we bugged it years ago (and several times since) and were given the eh, that's fine. I mean, you can always put down an icewall to the same effect, minus the stalwart.
Edited to add: Thanks, @Dristin.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
Liaisons are there to funnel these sorts of requests. They can use the liaison arena to easily check stuff under a range of conditions.
People posting stuff should include full reports of audits, str, weapon stats, artifacts, etc otherwise it's mostly just panicking without context.
In this case, in particular, this is more a symptom of a larger issue, which I've mentioned several times (Carni damage overall) and simply campaigning to change this one specific skill then means that when the bigger issue is addressed, this skill becomes an outlier. I, personally, don't think this skill is as terrifying or game-breaking as people are making it out to be, but reducing the damage is fine (we brought this up back in beta), as. at the end of the day, the skill is a tactical/utility one, not a damage one. Thing is, if this skill is addressed in an isolated way, then next week will there be some other skill (batter, throw, etc) brought up as op? For years, we've seen this happen, with nerfs and buffs and tweaks slapped in because of forum outcry. It's tiring to watch.
It's safe to say that combat has been setup (in most cases) with a 'counter' or a way to move around each kill route. They may not all be so blatantly clear as others, hence needing intensive testing/practice, but they more or less all exist. That's what combat /is/, @Moirean. Each person moving to achieve their killstate, be it afflictions, lock, instant kills via certain parameters, etc - while also attempting to counter the opponent's.
I think in the case of hammer swat, there is not a reliable counter outside of shielding. Shield, you say, just shield. You can not build anything off a shield. No other classes outside of monk can do anything near that hard, sustainable damage in such a short amount of time.
With no buildup.
White-Knighting unjust changes without due testing is great, admirable even, to help move away from those knee-jerk changes that can seriously debilitate classes. White-Knighting this, however, I just can't make sense of.
SO
Let the science begin. @Draiman and @Trager, can you grab logs from your Swat spam? @Yarel would be a good person to grab too, because stats/artifacts.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
As having a none artied person just swat bashing me to death then going to a lesser and 3 carnifexs spamming it.. 1 of them Ive NEVER seen in Carnifex and another ive never seen at a lesser in ooc months..
I'll post logs in morning
You knew very well that nobody was going answer yes to that.
That's what I'm irked about. There are processes to handle this stuff, and people throwing around information on forums without context and freaking out is not the way to do it. Apparently me wanting this means I'm "white knighting" a tactic I brought up back in *beta* as being OP (and one I've never personally used). This is why I dislike forum combat discussion. We all try to skew stuff for our own purposes, minimize some things, exaggerate others, and people get rude to each other in the process, and I think it's pretty frustrating that combat changes come out of these sort of discussions. It makes me feel like I have to participate just to defend against random nerfs (ala the soulthirst/pen change a while back).
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
@Nalor: I'm not sure if you just can't tell, but the tone of your post and question is snarky, combative, aggressive, and polarizing. This isn't an accusation or a condemnation - I just want to point out that that's how it's landing for people and it's going to make it difficult to move into a conversation that doesn't include any one person personally because it immediately throws the conversation into a light of "for" or "against."
In this case, @Moirean, we're just reporting our findings publically on Swat and the damage it's doing, and most of us are agreeing as players that the damage it's doing is too high and it would satisfy us about it if it were adjusted. Changes aren't up to us, all we're going to do is say what we see about it.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
As I said from the start I wasn't trying to be an unicorn, or point fingers at people.. I Just wanted a simple answer on if that damage was really intended..
So I apologise if you think im being an unicorn but Im really trying not to be just trying to get to the bottom of it, as Seems more and more carnifex are appearing out of the wood work and spamming it.. and its kind of off putting for the few lifer combatants to even try...
Next post please be numbers.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
Cutting | 30% 0% 53% 48%
Blunt | 30% 0% 53% 48%
Ezalor uses Savagery BruteForce.
Ezalor's muscles bulge with deadly strength as he tightens his grip upon his hammer.
H:100% M:6520 B:93% XP:75% [csdb eb]
Ezalor uses Savagery Furor.
Ezalor rams a horn-hilted warhammer into the ground and bellows out a challenge, frayed strands of essence snapping around him like ephemeral whips as he unleashes his furor.
Ezalor uses Savagery Swat on you.
Ezalor swings a horn-hilted warhammer around and slams it painfully into your side. The force of the blow sends you cartwheeling through the air towards the east.
You jerk your body to the side, lessening the blow.
Health Lost: 1699, blunt, brute
Ezalor stops you from moving that way.
Ezalor uses Savagery Stalwart on you.
With a cruel sneer, Ezalor shoves you to the ground as you try to move past him.
Health Lost: 376, blunt, brute
Balance Used: 0.69 seconds
You slam painfully into the obstruction blocking the exit.
Health Lost: 469, blunt, brute
2544 Damage total
-----------------------------------------------------
Cutting | 30% 0% 13% 33%
Blunt | 30% 0% 13% 33%
Ezalor uses Savagery Furor.
Ezalor rams a horn-hilted warhammer into the ground and bellows out a challenge, frayed strands of essence snapping around him like ephemeral whips as he unleashes his furor.
Ezalor uses Savagery Swat on you.
Ezalor swings a horn-hilted warhammer around and slams it painfully into your side. The force of the blow sends you cartwheeling through the air towards the east.
Health Lost: 2734, blunt, brute
Ezalor stops you from moving that way.
Ezalor uses Savagery Stalwart on you.
With a cruel sneer, Ezalor shoves you to the ground as you try to move past him.
Health Lost: 480, blunt, brute
Balance Used: 0.69 seconds
You slam painfully into the obstruction blocking the exit.
Health Lost: 469, blunt, brute
3683 Damage total
------------------------------------------------------
Now, thats with a few defensive artifacts, I didn't remove my protection amulet to test numbers but it still hurts, even with Scythe Stance. But if you want information for that @Ashmer, just ask.
For my own personal opinion, I feel no pity for it being used considering how many times our side died to brute retri, amazingly powerful monk damage, even Templar spellsbane into Lumi absolve, or my favorite shapeshifter doublelegbreak into double bbt, but this opinion is neither here nor there.
Can we get it without Furor? That scales damage heavily.
Also, can we leave stuff like the last bit out of it? That's what I'm talking about about bringing in background conversations. It's like it turns this into a personal and moral discussion rather than a mechanical one.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
Fortunately, someone already beat @Nalor to it. That player and I had a conversation and I assured him that we would find a subtle and reasonable way to balance swat, including the undesirable ability to provide your own beating wall, in the upcoming liaisons.
Edit: Though if you want to compare, that's also with multiple artifacts. Though I did damagekill Rashar a few times which was p. fun, until he realized he was curing for mana.