PK Discussion From Rage (Split, Not a Rage Thread)

Irruel

Having written several (maybe 6-8) offenses in the last few years, with varying degrees of success, one of the hardest parts is when the class isn't as simple as the old dsl knights (which is now most classes).

Writing the function that differentiates between primary/secondary attacks in dhuriv, or can include whirl or flourish - that's tricky. I've done that particular one half a dozen times now and there has both been a lot of trial and error, and it has ended up being maybe 40 odd lines long each time.

Determining that the next best affs to hit with are destroyed throat and asthma - easy. But if both of the affs require a primary combo, I then need to look at the 3rd best aff, and find that is given with opportunity from an animal, which changes what the first move in the combo is... arghh!

It's not impossible, but it is far from simple. Just the logic of it is headache-inducing, and that's before touching the coding.

Alissandra

@Ashmer‌ I have ideas for things I want to code to make my life easier. Like, I type showmethemoney and then it executes a series of commands like goto place with quest mob a. If quest mob a is alive then change the variable questmobaalive = true, and now that the variable is true check for quest mob b. If he is alive, kill him then go give his corpse to quest mob a. I get the concept, but I have no clue how to make Mudlet understand what I want it to do. It took me 3 hours to figure out how to make an alias to dstab with two venoms and work with a target that is variable so I can attempt to keep up at a lesser or something. Coding is very hard and time consuming.

Ezalor

Coding an offense is about 1/20th as hard as coding an entire system. And even easier if you have the rest of the system to use as an example for coding.

Is learning to actually code, so that you can code anything from scratch, insanely hard? Hell yes, there are entire college programs devoted to that. Is learning to code functionally in Aetolia, so that you can build off of and modify an already existing system and already existing examples, hard? A little bit, but really anyone can do it.

I would undoubtedly fail even a highschool level computer science class with my current coding knowledge but what little I do know is enough to be a functional PKer.

Alissandra

I am sure I can DO just about anything. Get a PhD? Sure, but I don't want to devote the time and resources to do so. Same thing with coding, if the end result was valuable enough to me, I would devote the time. As it is, the time requirement is far, far greater than what value I put on becoming a low-to-day tier combatant.

Jensen

I learned to pk and learned to enjoy it when we had wars, massively one sided raids, huge bounty lists, and a very large and hard to defend wilds to protect (duiran). Lost a lot to start and then won a lot later on. It was fun, I had to track down targets and jump them, I had to find security holes in cities and player/guild/undead house buildings, follow people to havens, shadow people to see if any threats were on the horizon, create wormholes, hypnotize people out of portals rooms, and gank. When you won you got more resources, your guards lived, and the wilds didn't get destroyed. When you lost you lost territory, trees burned down, and guards died.


It was fun, challenging, and rarely fair. What we have now is a rolling foci alarm clock where the points don't matter and who cares if you die. It's hollow and not fun.

Toz

Coded offense killed any desire I had to PK. You cannot, repeat, cannot, be on par with someone who went out and bought a system/offense if you have not coded your own or done the same. Manual will never again be as good as AI, and that's a shame. I've talked about this on here before, lots.

Another 'dark side' is the egos - I tried to keep it pretty calm with my PKing, and went out of my way in an attempt to minimize how much trash I talked. My character was pretty confident in himself, but he also was fairly against talking smack. Yet, somehow, I got c/p'd loads of logs where people were insulting me both IC and OOC, my combat ability, my RL choices, my friends, my family, a certain someone who I hope is a shrub still making alts to send me messages 'anonymously', and just general cattiness.

Can't say anything about the state of the pk scene now, but when I quit playing it was entirely not worth it to get involved in fighting at all, because why bother? It was about who had the time to sit and code or the cash to buy someone off to do it for them, about having someone sit still while you locked and re-locked them again and again. You couldn't whip up some aliases and go practice, tweak some slight things so it was faster/easier to keep up in the spam then jump right back out there 30s later to practice more. I remember when it was like that, and when muscle memory/aff tracking in your head was a skill you learned rather than something you bought - it was a learning curve, but it was a much less abrupt, wall-like one where you either can or cannot, and the old curve had varying degrees of top-tier fighters and mid-tier fighters and low-tier fighters, whereas this one is divided into basically non-comms, mid-tiers and top-tiers, with (I would imagine) a very high degree of 'clustering' in the middle of each category.

/rant

Ezalor

Manual's fine actually, just not for aff classes. Feichin beat pretty much everybody going full manual and I believe Valingar manuals as well.

Haven

WTB meaningful conflict system.

Edit: To be honest, we can discuss this til we're blue in the face. Nothing new has been said here that hasn't been said 1234567890 times before across multiple threads spanning years.

Irruel

Ezalor said:

I would undoubtedly fail even a highschool level computer science class with my current coding knowledge but what little I do know is enough to be a functional PKer.

Some people have the head for the logic involved in programming. Other people are naturally good at music, linguistics, marketing, business or whatever.

I'm good at programming. The logic comes easily to me, and it just makes sense.

I've tried and failed at learning 3 different musical instruments now, and I lived in China for 18 months, married a local, and never learned more than enough Mandarin to order food or ask where the toilet is. I -tried-, and I know that if I really persevered I could succeed - but I hate the whole process and gave up.

My buddy gets lost driving around even with a GPS navigator in his car telling him where to turn. I can't imagine how useless he would have been if he'd been born a generation earlier (streetmaps, wtf?). Yet he can pick up an instrument he's never seen before, and be playing something recognisable after 5 minutes.


I agree that anyone can learn the programming for mudding (it really is just the basics of programming), but trying to muddle through the logic of it if you're not that sort of person would be as fun for them as learning a foreign language or musical instrument is for me.

I feel that developers being coders has perhaps led to them to forget about this.

Ishin

I'm more of an ideas kinda guy myself. I can code a bit. Enough to make an offense that will smoke anyone mid-tier and below, as a Syssin. Probably could do it with most classes, if I really wanted. But where I kinda really shine is when you pair me with someone like @Ashmer, who can code the shit I dream up and hash out together. It's like we make rainbows, man.

Draiman

Haven said:

WTB meaningful conflict system.

I think they call it RP but I could be wrong idk

Rashar

It's kind of interesting to hear people say that, in my mind anyway. Meaningful conflict.

And then you wonder if, all those times you thought someone was just being a jerk or a troll or dramatic or overzealous, it -was- meaningful conflict. At least to a few (or one) of them.

Moirean

Yes, it often is. But then we get harassed on forums, tells, messages and PMs for starting conflict, so we give up trying to create it.

Rashar

Well I was thinking smaller scale, but you're not wrong.

Areka

You're accountable for your choices, actions, and priorities, even if starting intentions are in the right place.

One of the things that gets lost in conflict is that it needs to be engaging for both sides. The majority outside of personal, mutual RP, cross past this line rather quickly and become only about X or Y's enjoyment and fun and storyline and eff the rest it's not your responsibility or concern, and that deters folk from joining in.

This is seen in past game-wide events to player-initiated things.

In terms of PK, there's two aspects of moderation that also become muddled and lost.

First being simply sizes showing up (and the matter of it simply being pragmatic - if you want conflict but crossing N threshold means no one shows up, don't cross N threshold. You don't have to do that out of sentiment for others, merely it helps get you what you want).

Second being the moderation referenced above a bit more. Things can start off as a good idea or fun but then tunnel vision sets in and things cross lines, go to extremes that cease to be fun for those on the receiving end, or close out folk who would otherwise want to participate, or renew conflict in a way that doesn't make sense and feels forced and another job rather than a challenge/project/engagement.

In regards to @rashar's comment - that could also be it, complete miscommunication or understanding of intentions or what's going on. Though even then, one-sided meaningfulness is only going to go so far.

Lim

Regarding automation and manual combat, the requirements for Aetolian combat has shifted over the years. With clients around, combat has become more about strategy and tactics than it is about reading and reflexes. It's more dragonage, and less counterstrike. I get that it caters to a different sort of gameplay, but that's the reality of it. Some people like picking up reflexes, some people like strategy.

Regarding learning to code, it seems overwhelming before you start, but you'll be surprised how quickly things get done once you begin. Two years back, I was resistant to mudlet and lua. It was only around early/mid last year that I got sick of being picked on by asshat pkers, so that was the impetus to start learning how to code. At the time, all the systems were in mudlet, so I couldn't fall back on cmud, which was the only other language I knew from back in the 2000s playing Aetolia as a teen. So, I started using TW, learnt really basic variables and aliases, and then moved on to serenity. I don't know when exactly I started to learn the slightly more complex things like ipairs and functions, because by then, you're picking things up so gradually and subconsciously that knowledge just grows without you noticing.

I highly recommend picking up one of the free systems and build from there. Like ez says, coding an offence is 1/10 the difficulty of building a system. Once you have the basic framework of a free system, you can pick up basic variables and aliases, and make an offence of your own. The knowledge just builds from there. To be frank, though, I think all you need is to know how to make variables, aliases, and if-then statements. That's all you need to tell your system to do what you want it to. The rest is there just to make your code more elegant.

Regarding making entry easier, yes, it should be easier to join PK. But I don't agree with giving everyone a free, top notch in-game system where there is nothing to differentiate winners from losers. I don't want a pk scene where winning and losing is determined by throwing numbers at one other. Aetolian combat theory is so complex and beautiful that you lose all that value (built from over the years) when you provide the answers the everyone.

The current firstaid priority set is abysmally rigid, and it is suicide going up against anyone decent. Instead, I'm all for making firstaid customisable. Let people set their own priorities for curing, and the ability to easily switch those priorities as and when they like. Think memorising curing priority sets, just like how we can memorise enhancement sets. When that happens, you're taking away the coding obstacle, but retaining the decision making aspect of combat - people still have to decide what to cure first and when, they just don't need to know how to write all of that in a foreign, computer language.

Regarding asshat pkers, yes, there are those. They are the main reason I learnt to code in the beginning, and now, the main reason I stopped sharing with people what I know about combat theory. All I can say on this subject is to read people properly. Bullies respond to strength, and on this Internet game, it means being able to pick your teeth on their bones. Personally, I appreciate fully the privilege of being able to enter the HG, hold on to HG arties, or bash in the fracture unmolested. It's a privilege. There will always be vultures trying to pick on you if they think you're weaker. So the only thing to do is to be stronger.

Regarding the pk scene and numbers, from time to time, I find the pk scene dull because there just aren't enough people. As with many other aspects of the game, critical mass is a problem; the pk scene simply hasn't hit that critical mass of participants where it becomes self-sustaining. It hasn't become a community where you derive enjoyment from learning from one another, sparring one another, improving, sharing tactics, strategies and secrets, or competing with one another. I think it is worth looking at many of the things that Z mentioned. I believe that it doesn't take a radical revamp of combat to get there. All you need is to hit that sweet spot, and the pk community will snowball and grow.

Moirean

Lim said:

the pk scene simply hasn't hit that critical mass of participants where it becomes self-sustaining. It hasn't become a community where you derive enjoyment from learning from one another, sparring one another, improving, sharing tactics, strategies and secrets, or competing with one another.

It used to be. For years and years and years. It's only recently, concurrent with the advent of automated offenses and combat shifting to lessers, that the PK scene has become smaller and stagnant.

I used to PK a ton. Now I would rather spend my limited IG time doing stuff other than constantly code and tweak. I know PK theory and tactics, but I have no desire to sit and code all the time - PK didn't used to require this. When you talk about tactics, you're really just talking about coding choices. They may be tactical choices, but you're making them before you enter the battle.

I would be interested in a poll, perhaps - of the people who think Aetolia's combat is complex and engaging, where else have you PKd? At the core, it's about linear curing and beating that, and maybe people think that is complex because they haven't seen what other types of combat ideas there are for MUD-based PK.

Jensen

Even with ai, we used to have more fighters. During war days when I was benandanti of bark, duiran had more fighters than our current realm does on the whole. It was pretty common to see 9v9 or more to defend troops.

Irruel

@Lim‌
You described the imperian server-side curing system.
Players can:

1. Jump right in with a rubbish priority list
   
2. Figure out or get told a better one, and jump right in
   
3. Adjust it on the fly - either before the fights depending on what class they're fighting against, or midfight to react to strategies.
   

Also, there is a 250ms "lag" on the reactions, allowing people with systems to compete against it if they still wish to.

The strategical aspect is still there.

Nalor

@Jensen at present Duiran Id say has like maybe 6/7 fighters.. and with the timezones etc maybe 3/4 at any given time.

Loch/Spinse has the most fighters in the game as just like whats been said for years and years, its what the game advertises for.. but thats a different discussion. We trying to make more fighters in the other cities but at present its a nil point .. Thats my own personal opinion.

Draiman

I don't know what happened, when it happened, or how, but I don't believe "the game advertises for it" is a valid excuse as to why the dark side has the majority of the people interested in PK. When I started playing right up until Xarian started dominating the scene it was the light side with all of the fighters. I remember things akin to what even older people said about Spirokai, being instantly braziered the moment I rose from earthmeld just to be killed again because there were 10-15 light side fighters and then me, Povox, and like, Utansi/Genocide. It was this way for a long time until people rallied behind Xarians example. I even recall some stories about how Duiran dominated this game for a while with Sibatti?. I think it's the people in the game and in the organizations, not the advertising.

Jensen

@nalor none of that is what I'm talking about. 2 years ago duiran had more active combatants than this realm of today has total. But since you brought it up, duiran also had too numbers and more victories than any other org at the time so I'm not buying that dark is better than light thing.

Nalor

But point being is how many of them people still play? .. As said thats a completely different discussion and nothing to do with combat at present. Life side really doesnt have the number of combatants and most of them dont wish to do combat just to get steam rolled every time.

Jensen

I don't get why you're focused on that part of it or how that's relevant to what I said. AI existed back then, war existed back then, raiding was possible back then. Guess what also came with that? Over twice as many active combatants realm wide.

Moirean

I think the numbers are pretty telling. Most people who used to fight don't anymore. The reasons are debatable but most of the active top fighters are people who have come up in recent years.

Lim

Irruel said:

@Lim‌ You described the imperian server-side curing system. Players can:

1. Jump right in with a rubbish priority list
2. Figure out or get told a better one, and jump right in
3. Adjust it on the fly - either before the fights depending on what class they're fighting against, or midfight to react to strategies.

Also, there is a 250ms "lag" on the reactions, allowing people with systems to compete against it if they still wish to. The strategical aspect is still there.

Hmm, did it end up good? Right now I think it's a good idea, but I'm wondering how it actually panned out.

Nalor

Imperian autocuring is better then any system you can get.. only thing you have to do is the normal stuff like fill pipes, parry, you can switch priorities on the go, herb, pipe, writhing.. it also defs up (the main defs like thirdeye, deathsight, nightsight, caloric, sileris etc) @lim no one in imperian has a curing system.

Irruel

They do tweak the priorities on the fly though.

Seemed fine to me - it's just curing after all. Just suppose Ashmer completes Oasis and releases the curing portion free for everyone. Then Aetolians get to choose between Oasis and Entropy.

Sure, server-side might be a bit better, but in either case loads of people would cure way better than now.

Would Aetolia suffer? I don't think so. The established mid-tier pvpers with rigid or gimmicky offenses might suffer when they're unable to adapt to their targets being able to cure well, though.

When Whyte released mudbot curing to Imperian, a lot of people whined. I think it improved the game there by leaps and bounds.

Jensen

well if 90% of people use a base curing system you'll see some offenses to target them specifically and win until an update happens.

Malok

Irruel said:

When Whyte released mudbot curing to Imperian, a lot of people whined. I think it improved the game there by leaps and bounds.

I agree with this completely, and I have longed for such a thing to happen on Aetolia so that you can actually see who the most clever combatants are, and not who know how to code best are.