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PK Discussion From Rage (Split, Not a Rage Thread)
This discussion was created from comments split from: MAD 2: MADDEN'S MADDENING.. Intended for constructive discussion concerning some PK topics that came up in that main discussion.
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Unrelated but somewhat related, I'm getting disappointed, disgruntled, disheartened, disparaged, and probably some other dis words I can't think of right now with the lack of the PK community that Aetolia has. It really has gotten to the point where PK is completely predictable and unfun. Reason I say this is because if you look at the active fighters (not talking about leyline fighters):
Lifer: Top: Valingar, Dato (sometimes), Benedicto, Trager, Rashar, Conner
Mid: Amberlea, Jami (sometimes)
Darkie: Top: Ezalor (sometimes), Lim, Rammus
Mid: Riluo, Zsadist, Yarel (sometimes), Draiman, Daegon
99% of the time, if you fight one of these guys, regardless of pairing, you know immediately who is going to win. Now, this list is very, very small, but its the list of people who fight. And that is very disparaging from the point of conflict. I enjoy the PK scene, but I get tired of fighting Trager or Rashar or Valingar or whoever else a billion times over. I would love to fight other people, see more people enter the PK community, but they don't. Why? I'm not too sure and can't really answer that. I get that PK can be very aggressive and intense, sure. We've all been there. I just feel like we're doing something wrong to have gotten to the point where that are literally only 16-20 active fighters throughout a game that has an average of 60-80 people on at any single time.
Anyway, thats my little disappointing rant for this thread. I'd offer a solution to fix this issue, but I'm not quite sure what the issue is thats stopping people from entering the PK world. Oh well.
Editted to put in Top/Mid tier fighters (not that it matters much)
For one thing, from my end when I look at any of those names, I know instantly that I'm going to lose. Very likely I'm going to lose badly, in a matter of seconds. I'm still new enough that it's hard for me to figure out how or why I lose. So it seems pointless. While dying isn't much of a big deal post 100, if I'm not going to learn anything nor do I have an RP reason for it, I'm not going to go get slaughtered. (I appreciate you offering the 2v1 duel @Zsadist and if the other person had gone for it, I'm sure we would have died gloriously to you.)
Next, and I know the Lifer side(@Rashar especially) is trying to fix this, but there was(and is) almost no encouragement or concise information on how to get started. Until @Amberlea showed up on our side my instruction was limited to double hamstring, double rend or double jugular and though I asked multiple times about howls, I was met with silence or vague answers. Only a few days ago I figured out cornering was actually a defence to increase dodge.
Combat is also a huge, huge time investment if you want to do it yourself and even gaining someone else's system it can take a long time to learn what's going on. You give up other things in the game to take part in that side of it, running out in the middle of RP to hit a lesser or defend the protected town X. @Roux is exceedingly awesome about this, but most people get pissed if you ditch them for a lesser(or whatever) in the middle of their RP. I know I personally have chosen to ignore Guild advancement in favour of learning PK and RP with Kendri's family and friends. This is getting increasingly annoying and hard as the Guild leadership is asking more and more about Kendri's interviews and when she'll be ready. Most people are not content to sit at GR1 in favour of practicing, learning and coding for PK. And I'm only talking about being effective(somewhat) at lessers. I've just learned about how differently things set up in 1v1.
Not only does this apply to RP but time spent bashing/exploring/questing/anything outside of a city and safety and doing so knowing you're not going to get ganked.
Firstaid has lowered the bar of entry into the PK world, a lot, but it is still a steep climb to get anywhere near the names on that list.
Personally, rather then a tell saying, 'hey, duel me', in which I have absolutely no roleplayed reason to go take part. I'd jump on the chance for some RP that would lead to PK. (and likely my death) Though in Kendri's case specifically it's likely going to get Rashar after said person. But the point is, you may draw more of those people that are on the border over into the PK world by tying it in with something they already enjoy. Example, hitting them up with an ooc message saying, hey, want to get some animosity, hate, nemesis stuff going on between our characters? My first character in Imperian had a nemesis and though I died a ton, (before dying was trivialized, I could barely bash enough to keep 80,) it's one of my favourite memories.
Wow, that turned out longer then I expected. In short, combat is a huge investment not only in time but some may see it as a detriment to the parts of the game they personally enjoy already.
I'm huge into PK, I did it elsewhere for years and absolutely love being involved in the conflict system. However, building a system for a new (to me) mud is a lot of work, so before I start doing this, I'd like to get my feet wet and talk to someone about Prae combat. Though it seems Bloodloch is the home of afking and silence, so I have made little progress on that.
I also try to jump into lessers, but I don't really know how they work yet and nobody can be bothered to spend 5 minutes to tell me where they are and what to do. I know I'm a lowbie and don't have years of artifacts and xp behind me, but I'm not feeling overly compelled to invest in them right now either.
@Kendri, I understand that PK is a huge time investment, believe me, I get it, having been in the PK scene for nearly 9 years since I first started IRE games. But I think the thing that gets overlooked is that it doesn't have to hinder one aspect of the game or another. Like you gave an example of ditching people in the middle of RP, ok, yes that does happen. But that doesn't mean they can't pick it right back up as soon as you're back. There have literally been countless times in Imperian, where I'm in the middle of RP with some city council member or something, and then BOOM! Raid! We put the RP on "pause", did what we had to do, and then reconvened and continued the RP. Now, RPK is fun and all, but thats a clique all to itself and it happens over time. For me, I see @Trager (<3 Trags) as a decent nemesis because he always kicks my ass. I see @Rashar as a nemesis because he's just fun to fight for stupid reasons (plus I get to call him a pissant, so thats always fun.
As for your worry of being jumped/attacked while you're bashing/questing/exploring, I don't foresee many fighters (if any at all) doing that. We're trying to build the PK community, not destroy it, and to be honest, I think that is what helped destroy the PK community that the game had.
I'm not sure what all Rashar is doing to try to push forward more lifer fighters, and I'm always glad to offer ideas if he ever needs any, but you also need to seek out those who know your class. For you Kendri, your mentor (for lack of better word) would be Amberlea. (Hi Amber!) Also, maybe its just because I don't have a guild anymore, but being able to fight should help with guild progression too as it shows strength in that guild. Again, no guild, so I'm just blowing smoke here.
I get where you're coming from Kendri, but at some point, every single one of us is either a) sitting there bored, b) waiting for areas to respawn, c) idling, d) doing something that isn't productive. During those times, one could be reading CHELP/GHELP files on their classes combat style, etc etc. While I agree PK is very time intensive, its also very rewarding when you start winning fights against people or even winning at lessers.
Lessers are good for group PK and to make it a smooth train everyone has to play their own role, which sort of makes it boring combat. It's not like building up a strategy for how to handle things on your own, because that takes a lot more knowledge of your personal skills, how to best set things up as a Player and also knowledge on which tactics to play against which class. However, as I said, if you end up against those top people mentioned above and know nothing but constant defeat (and here I'm talking the kind of defeat where you die within seconds and won't be able to do shit about it) it's disheartening. Mid tier people need a lot of encouragement. Not just assistance and coding tips, but plenty of pats on the back to keep them upbeat and wanting to give it another try.
Thankfully I've gotten some serious back-patting lately, so I'm feeling optimistic (probably more than I should, but that's alright!). To help out a little, I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack. I'm not overly good, but I'm trying to improve, making very very slow progress. If anyone wants to give something a go that is not against those high-enders, ask me. I might not always be up for it, but don't stop asking.
Until @Amberlea showed up, there was pretty much no one to help me figure it out. I was even willing to learn from her icly when she was on the other side, things were that limiting. There are no Help files detailing Lycan combat that I've come across and I suppose that's my own misjudgment for choosing a class without a Guild attached.
When I compare the environment of learning and encouragement from Imperian to Aetolia, it falls ridiculously short here. We would snap newbies up at the slightest sign of interest, explain how to follow targets, even give them a simple trigger for it, tell them their best damage combo and go to it. (Damage=kills=fun and addiction to pk=leading to an interest in 1v1 style) I don't know if it's because they have three sides, so their fighters are more spread or if it's just the general atmosphere of wanting everyone to participate to the best of their ability. Likely both and more.
Seeking out help is one thing, but when I feel I have to constantly ask the same question over and over, get offered help but it never comes through. Well, I get discouraged and stop asking, feeling like I'm bothering people and I'm interfering with their fun. I know this isn't just a problem for myself, @Mael has had the same issue. Maybe we need to be less polite? It's hard, we're Canadian.
To keep on topic, I find this discussion about PK to be rather interesting. The problems that plague PVP in all the IRE games are very similar, and thus can be chalked up to bad design decisions, ultimately. The idea of having to be a trained computer programmer to enjoy killing other players in a fantasy online game is extremely dated and needs to go away. You fix that aspect of the game, and like it or not, way more people would likely participate.
Edit: Wth @Zsadist? I'M MID TIER?! </3
If you need help, ask. If you're not getting help from the lifer side, ask a darkie. The game is a lot more fun for us when we have people to fight and aren't getting guilted (jokingly or not @Rashar :P) for having more fighters, so we're likely to help regardless of the side you're on.
Also, I have 0 idea what Draiman is talking about. Like -I- am going to go sit with a bunch of dirty dark-siders in a web, pft.
Also, Draiman is right. If you aren't getting help on your side, ask the other side. Though if you're a darkie and you're not getting help, something is wrong.
You're right about the difference in atmosphere, which is the largest part of what we're trying to change. Aside from working with the Eno peeps on the militia stuff to reward as well as add a more IC approach to fighting, that's where the majority of my focus has been, just speaking for myself. Just being helpful and having a good environment for people to be comfortable or learn in.
I don't pk everybody that looks at @kendri crooked. Just @zsadist. :P Also yeah, sorry I couldn't help out with lycan things more. But I poached Amberlea and afflicted her with lifer so that's cool. Use herrrrr.
Also thank God for coffee, for when you wake up hung over after New Years Eve and spend almost a full minute trying to figure out why you're not delivering the people asking to be delivered. And then realize you're in Syssin. And then spell gross groce. Completely unrelated tangent over, thanks for tuning in.
Just wanted to say that.
Also, it does at least seem easier for dark-side to get people together to go to a lesser. Earlier today on the light side had two where people were like SURE I'LL GO DEL ME and it was like WHOA WHEN DOES THIS HAPPEN. Bloodloch still came up with a matched team pretty easily, though. I don't know, I guess wanting to play a bloodsucking monster who feeds on helpless virgins in the night comes with a desire to participate in PK. Either that or the environment really is different - which I've definitely seen. I've never been disparaged or insulted around a lesser on the dark side of things, but several times I've been openly trolled, mocked or had something I've said taken out of context and super personally (like as an insult) when it wasn't the case on the light side, before and after a lesser.
This is all just thinking out loud, but what it feels like it's missing is that context of "same-sidedness." When I'm playing in BL, I have the distinct experience that even if I don't necessarily like someone (or if Ashmer doesn't like them, even though I do) we're still "on the same side." I don't have that same experience when playing on the light side - which isn't to say it isn't there, but it isn't all-pervasive like with Bloodloch and Spinesreach.
Mad post: how many little errors I make that slows down debugging Oasis as it's getting built, and that ominous foreboding feeling that I'm going to have to go back in and clean all the stuff I've coded in the last week up in a big way.
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
In general clan chat is pretty chill. Sometimes me and Rashar/Trager get into it. Sometimes me and Zsadist. But in general, it's pretty chill. Usually we fight a bit, then someone asks a combat question and everyone chips in, and it's left alone after that.
I spent some time chatting with @Asaraii earlier about Prae stuff, and I also chatted some with @Melantha and @Tenshyo. Ftr, Ten, hitting me for 34% of my HP is so uncool man. Was like 2200 dmg in one combo, THROUGH PUTRE. T_T
I had personally been thinking about making a general combat clan, but I'm not really sure how well that would work out. @Moirean already has one, but I'm not sure if it's for our side or for everyone or what.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Fight. A lot. Fight different people. Push your boundaries and fight harder people, not just people you can beat.
Don't waste those deaths. Be disciplined. Always analyse logs to see where you went wrong. Even if you win, there is usually a way you could have done better, killed faster, or cured better.
Don't be afraid to die a lot. Prematurely getting concerned with winning and losing while you're in the beginning stages is one of the the biggest obstacle to getting better. Who gives a shit if you die in 10s, figure out how you can prevent that from happening the next time. Last 15s. 30s. 1 minute. 2 minutes. Win. No one was born a PvP god.
If you're inexperienced and have no idea where you went wrong, this usually means you don't understand all the abilities used, how they work, or what exactly the effect of all the afflictions were.
Read the AB file if you don't understand an ability.
Read all the AB files of a class if you don't understand a class.
Read AFFLICT (affliction) SHOW if you don't understand an affliction.
SEARCHNEWS ANNOUNCE (affliction/ability) just to make sure the AB file or AFFLICT file isn't outdated.
When in doubt, speak to a liaison. Most know their stuff.
You need to understand the theory well before you can construct good combat logic. Slowly figure out the underlying concepts. Learn what constitutes the early fight, mid fight, late fight. Understand the meaning of hinder, escalation, masking. Learn how to build a stack. Know how each individual piece ties in to one another.
Always test abilities and strategies. Do not base your combat knowledge off qualitative descriptions in the helpfiles. Come up with a game plan, then observe the actual numbers in practice. Experiment. Field test. If it fails, go back and analyse what went wrong with your strategy, and try to come up with a better one. Theorycrafting is unprofessional and ineffective.
Take ownership of your failure. Don't talk about buffing/nerfing things without having first exhausted all options available to you. This separates the good from the mediocre.
Don't rely on gimmicks and take the easy way out. You'll be missing out if you do. Aetolian combat is so complex and rewarding, I am to this day in awe of how it has evolved to the stage it is at today.
Buy str3
Buy knuckles3
punch things to death.
Also, learn to parry, you newbs.
But sometimes I want to!
To keep on track, I freaking hate having a horse farm in the winter.
Re learning there is the pk clan (called uhh...pk) for darkies. We are still compiling combat guides (and people can make a decent chunk of credits from helping create them). Spines also has a pk progression system which relies a lot on practice and analysis as these are key to improving. Chelp combat ranks explains more.
As for pk itself I have so little time to spend perfecting code given how busy I am elsewhere in the game and rl. I know pk theory but fine tuning stuff for 1v1 is time expensive and not very compelling since 1v1 doesn't really have any reason or objective behind it anymore nor is xp a motivator (I used to gank people cuz omg bashing sucks). I also don't really enjoy the heavy emphasis on afflictions and states over tactical choices so I don't find 1v1 as fun as I used to. I tend to only do group stuff or objective based combat like holy wars.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
I love IRE PK for its complexity. I also hate it for that complexity when I have to turn back to my systems and start coding.
I still have to write:
Personal tracking for ~30% of the afflict list, including all but web/impale for the writhe afflictions.
Diag affliction tracking at all.
Auto'd Pre-restore of some kind.
Attacks that can be reasonably accessed.
Stacking queued commands with the separator rather than firing them individually.
Holding an herb or two in hand at all times, or at least a toggle for it.
Pipe tracking. Either Lusternia or Imperian tells you how many smokes you have left of the pipe you're smoking, when you smoke it.
Accessible attacks, through macro or queued 'attack path'.
Opponent's afflictions tracking.
Spam reduction.
I still have to figure out:
How to fight all the classes. Is vinelash affected by rebounding? How does one get a rip without cheesing a prone shriek on not-the-thigh? How frequently can you Quicken? Is Morph or Quicken tracked in ability balance?
What can all the classes do back to me. THANK YOU AB RANDOM FULL WORKING IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CLASS.
Is two pipes per herb needed anymore since the aeon and the Tarot offense was changed?
Is holding herbs important, once more because of the aeon and Tarot changes?
What do all these new afflictions actually do? When can and can't you cure them?
How does bruising work? Hell, how do Carnifex do at all? Do they still have amputate?
If illusions isn't the Syssin boat, how does void/sprinkle work? How does Hypnosis work? Are they still immune to particular poisons?
And the worst part?
What's going to stop Atra from stomping me into the ground again after I get something set up and running? (In theory, I got endgame, and powerful was nerfed. Woo.)
How many more versions of the system am I going to have to expand, from scratch, until I have all the pieces needed to start competing? (Maybe none. Who knows.)
So. There's lots to be done before I PK, and I'll handle each piece as I get to it.
To address these problems is difficult, because I need time and confidence that there'll be more rewards than the Lifer side putting me down and into a corner like when the holywar system was released.
Setting this aside, because it's mostly for 1 vs 1, I dislike ylem group pvp lifer side because I hate the idle chat in Dion/Fire. I'd rather listen to the IC banter in CT/GT than OOC banter anywhere. Why? I'm terrible for OOC chat.