13th Anniversary games

Aishia · October 2014

You wouldn't be able to wield and throw something with the flag.

Aishia · October 2014

plus the eq from throwing alone even if you could would make it take like 5x longer, when you're already being hindered and slowed.

Ishin · October 2014

Throwing doesn't take eq.

Edit: plus if he had a buddy they could just chuck mono's in the direction you're going.

Moirean · October 2014

How many people were actually stopped from capturing due to lust? The place has 5 local areas. I think I only managed to stop Trager, once, with lust. The rest I wasn't able to by the time I got my ents to me and got to the right area. They had either gotten away by then or someone else had gotten to them.

Valingar · October 2014

It's not relevant, because you can't throw it in the first place. Flagbearer has a very limited amount of commands they can do without losing the flag. But it costs balance.

You use Wield.
You start to wield a monolith sigil in your left hand.
Balance Used: 0.46 seconds

You hurl a monolith sigil down.
Balance Used: 1.86 seconds

Aishia · October 2014

well it takes balances don't get semanticsy

Valingar · October 2014

Moirean said:
How many people were actually stopped from capturing due to lust? The place has 5 local areas. I think I only managed to stop Trager, once, with lust. The rest I wasn't able to by the time I got my ents to me and got to the right area. They had either gotten away by then or someone else had gotten to them.

I was stopped several times. I know Cronides was as well. That's just from Eno's team.

Moirean · October 2014

I was using in-room lust on you. Cronides was really good with rejections. I was only ever able to pin him down when I walked to him directly.

Valingar · October 2014

I'm not talking about just you. You weren't the only Indorani around.

Radakail · October 2014

Aishia said:
You wouldn't be able to wield and throw something with the flag.

That's the teammwork part. Friend throws mono, you both walk in, friend throws another mono which you go to, friend pcks the one in-room up and follows you. Rinse repeat. Slows movement down by around two seconds a room.

For the record, Lust eq should probably be around two seconds too.

Aishia · October 2014

Moirean · October 2014

Lust is like 3 seconds.

Gwenith · October 2014

I would love a drunken bloodbath/FFA. Just for laughs at

Rashar · October 2014

I think he's saying that a) between the .howevermany seconds of you walking into the room and your buddy throwing a mono, the Indo spamming Empress is going to suck you up, and b) to have to plan around that and build golden highways of monolith sigils during a ctf event that by nature makes it a necessity to win is a bit meh. Especially when there is no equivalent on the opposite side, and in fact similar skills don't even work in reverse.

I could be wrong though.

Trager · October 2014

So, a few points. Hats off to Spinesreach, they obviously did a fair bit of coordination and planning in order to win the CTF. I don't think anyone is saying they didn't. However, I am relatively sure every city/council did just the same pre-CTF.

I think those hitting that 'disagree' button should take (or try) a step back and look through the issue with unbiased eyes. (Remember, you already won, that's not being disputed or refuted.)

The main issue I saw with the CTF, especially early on where we successfully defended moderately well, was actually capturing a flag. I know whenever I picked up an Enorian flag, a Bloodloch flag, or a Spirean flag, I was immediately targeted and the lust cards were being thrown with a fury. At first I was caught off guard, yes, that was my fault. I assumed since the closest lifer-equivalent skills were not viable, neither would lust be. I attempted to start working around that. I carry at minimum thirty monoliths around with me at all times, but in that kind of stress/high-paced environment (Especially near the end where everyone just wanted to farm us!) it was near impossible to try and organize a well-rounded defense for this tactic. THAT SAID, you still won, and congratulations. Numbers were mightily in your favor.

I have absolutely no desire to reiterate the numerously posted math. I think... yes, it was Radakail mentioned that having a monolith stalker with you would only add AT LEAST two seconds to each room, but did you join that CTF? It is easy to forum-speculate and dream up this epic plan in your mind, another to be in the thick of it trying to work it. Two seconds is a long time, especially when you realize that the same tactic does not apply to the Shadow Tether sort (Unless fighting each other, and lets be honest, that did not happen much).

Thoughts from those obviously disagree with the logic that has been posted?

Trager · October 2014

Because I am too tired to edit:

Please, legitimate responses only please. If someone replies with a furiously indignant post about the topic I will lol @ u. Hard.

Gwenith · October 2014

To be a bit of a wet blanket : Admin can we have this discussion split from the Anniversary thread? It's leaning towards more tweaking CTF's for the future and I'm sure there could be a bigger discussion about it (maybe including other stills that should be stopped during it or added back in?)

Moirean · October 2014

Noose traps were just as hindering - worse, because hitting them made you drop the flag right off the bat. Piety lasts 5x as long as gravehands. Abduct instantly made you drop the flag and Seir was very skilled at snagging people into phase. There are a lot of things that stop you from carrying a flag.

Spinesreach did coordinate and plan a lot and no, the other cities didn't do it to the level that we did. I gave out credits to those who joined. Ishin coordinated a web discussion the day beforehand to create tactics. We got Bloodloch to agree to team up with us (something they agreed to partially because of the rampant teaming in the FFA and Bloodbath earlier). Faerah posted to get her entire guild pumped up and active in it. Our high numbers were not just luck. I even went in and tested things and wrote a CHELP for Spines and CLHELP for BL with tactics.

It feels like people are citing lust as the reason Spinesreach won, and that's not fair to my city - we put in effort beforehand and had a stellar turnout. No flag EVER made it out of our base. That wasn't lust's fault. That was our base defence - a group of newbs and non-comms - being really stellar. I am really proud of Spinesreach - they were given specific tasks and they performed really, really well.

Lifers displayed some fundamental flaws in their coordination. At one point, Stridor and I went in to the Enorian base and tanked like 6 people while Xenia picked them off with radiance and Teani ninjad 2 flag caps in a row. Two caps, and they never switched target off of me. That wasn't lust's fault. The Spirean base wasn't targetted for flag caps - capping a flag deducts a point from a city, so capping our flag 2-3 times could have completely changed the outcome, but instead Duiran and Enorian tried to cap from each other.

I also did not die the entire time. I rarely had defenders on me. If a luster is a problem, it stands to reason that taking them out is a good step - one that wasn't ever taken.

Yes, lust maybe was problematic, but right now the discussion seems to be conflating that with our other work and efforts. Perhaps I'm being defensive, but Aetolia has a history of inaccurate and exaggerated forum outcry effecting changes, and I think a broader analysis is important here. Lust is not the demon it's being made out to be. There were a LOT of other factors.

Aishia · October 2014

Only reason it's kept going on is the argument. If you just said from the start "Yes maybe lust was problematic" Discussion over.

Moirean · October 2014

But it's not lust that was the reason for the loss, and I refuse to simply say that it was to make you guys happy. My city did a damn good job, Bloodloch did a damn good job, and I'm not going to invalidate that.

Amberlea · October 2014

There were a couple of shots taken at the spirean flag, most notably Jibz, Valingar, Raeche, and Trager, but each of those came in solo as far as I could tell. I was converging hindering howls on anyone who touched the flag, and we had enough other people hindering/hitting that somebody getting away on their own wasn't really feasible.

Having spines and loch teamed compounded the issue, leaving either of the other two teams with too few defenders if they tried a large offensive. I was sort of stunned that eno and duiran didn't team up immediately when they saw we were working together. Game mechanics, RP, and human nature all lend a predilection to teaming in these sorts of events.

Valingar · October 2014

You're being a bit defensive, Moi.

No one has said Spines/BL alliance won exclusively because of lust. I'm not sure where you are pulling this from. You had good coordination and did a fine job. That, combined with the fact that you were teaming together with BL and had bigger numbers, while Eno / Dui worked as individual cities, would probably have ensured the win even without lust. This discussion wasn't some kind of personal attack aimed at you or Spines. It was about the skill. Which is a problem for future CTF if left as is.

But I've said my points, some of them more than a few times. There's no need for me to belabor this discussion, so bowing out at this point. If people still decide to believe lust/empress spam on the flagbearer is a fair mechanic in CTF, that's entirely their right. I just disagree.

Benedicto · October 2014

I'm going to agree with Valingar. Nobody is saying that Spinesreach didn't deserve to win. Due to the effort that was put in and the numbers that were had, you guys deserved to win. Absolutely. Trager even made a point of saying that in his earlier post. We are not debating the righteousness of the win. Just the mechanic of lust within the CTF arena whilst being a flagholder. That's it.

Amberlea · October 2014

Moirean said:
... I think maybe make flag people immune to lust or abduct might be a good answer, but that might be a big nerf, I dunno.

Moi's first response to the lust/empress question admitted there was a possibility that it might be OP against the flag bearer...

I think it's fair that people have tried to offer ideas of how it could try to be countered, as that discussion is pretty necessary in determining if something is actually OP or not.

It begs the question about other forced movement abilities. Obviously brazier can be countered, but what about serenading, beckoning, wrench, neckdragging, etc.

Ishin · October 2014

Let me tell you guys what makes me lol so hard. This is the anniversary thread, for one, and lifers qqing all over my thread. Gtfo. Make a thread in sparring grounds if you want to cry alligator tears about lust.

Next: Everyone gets 3 liaison reports when liaisons come due. If you feel like lust is such an issue, spend one of your reports explaining why it's such an issue and propose viable solutions.

Next: Two of the people doing the most arguing and fighting over lust are liaisons, who get what, twice as many reports as the rest of us? lol.

Lastly: YET AGAIN ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET COMBAT STUFF CHANGED BY CRYING ON FORUMS.