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I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
I think. Idfk what an a cup is. But I feel like there's enough there to be worth trying.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Concerns
My biggest concern with the game currently would be with the plots. I tend to agree with Toz's original post about feeling like you're just shuffling from point A to point B.
I do believe the gods when they say they are doing non-linear plots. There have been some cool things and I hope they realise that. The problem, then, is why we don't feel like there are these alternative scenarios that could unfold. Are they actually alternative endings or just quest details? If they are actual scenarios, are they actually realistic? That whole thing with dropping Moghedu onto Bloodloch was so outlandishly unlikely that of course we know it's not going to happen, for example. Finally, if there are a bunch of realistic possiblities to a plot arc, why are we always heading for what seems entirely predictable?
That brings me to my next point, which is that the lifer orgs are far too frequently shoved into a reactionary position. We are forever the people trying to stop the end of the world, being taken advantage of or having some dastardly deed done to us. We are stuck in the Midnight Age and we, as players, are fully aware that the Age of Dawn is never happening. It feels like - I'm not saying it is, just that it feels like - the standard go-to plot is that something/someone has been corrupted and oh noes, we must do something about it. Or not do something about it. Or argue about it. Probably all of them, but we're seldom the ones initiating the whole thing and at best, we get a new bashing area, yay? When you don't have the numbers, but you have the more difficult stance to uphold and the long-term knowledge that you're probably ****ed anyway because that's how it always goes, it's harder. Again, this is where some extra prodding may come in handy. Possess a mob and give us a tidbit of information. Allude to the invisible NPCs in our orgs and what they're up to. Don't try to invent weaknesses - e.g. Enorian's "racism" - because honestly, you don't need to.
I'm really not just trying to whine here and I'm aware that I'm generalising. As a side note, I admit to just watching gods do their thing in the huge, major scenes myself. I'm not a big fan of emoting to 20 people but that's just me. That is entirely me, not anyone else and not the game, but I suspect I'm not the only one. Maybe there's something in there that feeds into the general sense of disempowerment.
I like the idea of things being challenging, of decisions and choices being harder and things actually being denied to my character, but people's claims to want this really sit at odds with just about everything posted on the forums.
There are lots of little things I could add, general observations about novelty and what makes it wear off, character/plot development limitations, self-imposed or otherwise, in a story that never ends where you only write a single character or two etc., but I'm pretty sure that's not going anywhere and I'm tired.
What I'd like to see
I prefer more complex events with lasting consequences to a series of short, blink-and-you'll-miss-it events. If I have to choose one major event that takes two weeks over five small ones with no lasting consequences, I will probably choose the former.
I would be happy to see any of the lifer orgs as the protagonists in more events, getting the ball rolling for a change. Better yet, couldn't we have some lifers serving as the antagonists - remake Kornar so that a bunch of trigger-happy Luminaries are trying to invade and burn them all in loving memory of the living version of Haven Locke? Run an event where Dhar's order tries to force-cure some undead through some newly discovered research?
I really love the idea of more of this stuff where you feel like your actions have a consequence. I like all the guildranks and privileges ideas others have posted. I even like the idea of being able to do something as minor as capture a region for a year with the sole benefit of getting all its commodities - let's face it, capturing leylines isn't that much more useful with the current ylem stockpiles.
I'd like to see an Aetolia where there was less of an OOC bleedthrough to IC stuff and the players were generally nicer to each other. I also acknowledge that Oleis is not a miracle worker.
More tangible outcomes to our actions would be nice. Awhile back in Duiran, someone was telling us to focus on hunting the areas where Nature had been corrupted. I like this idea, but if I send Ciarelle to bash in the Kalydian, for example, there are absolutely no tangible consequences. The animals are going to come back sick and corrupted. The forest doesn't change. I don't even get gold and xp for my efforts. Sure, it's a nice RP thing, but tangible consequences are really nice. Even the tiniest details, the refugees with the same last names as characters or the NPC that remembers that one dude who helped him two centuries ago and has a custom greeting for him, make you feel like you've made a mark. Someone like Dask should have a statue somewhere.
Finally, I'm looking forward to factions and I like the idea of OOC catch-ups with the gods/admin re: where things are at.
Questions
- So, factions! Does anyone have any idea when they will actually be happening?
- Is there any point at all in mobmessages?
- In lieu of the above, is there anything OOCly that you can share about how plots get chosen and who gets involved?
- I almost don't want to point this one out, but I find it depressing and irritating that my guild can sit at the bottom of topguilds for ages no matter what the handful of awesome people logging on do, but it's only when we get a 24/7 afk-er who does nothing that the numbers shoot up. That seems, to me, to be the opposite of fun activity; when I talk to someone and get zero response, I actually get put off, yet that's what, according to the numbers, makes us a better guild. Is there any possibility that the mysterious formula by which topguilds gets calculated can be looked at?
- This is completely arbitrary, but is there any possibility, ever, that org leaders could do roomwide illusions without needing to rely on a particular class skill? I know I would be a lot more keen on emoting a mob doing something if it wasn't so blatantly obvious that it was actually me typing an emote and forever in the format of something along the lines of "emote (Iernos, the Eidolon of Spirit flaps his madly, his usual placid expression replaced by one of great anxiety.) , in the meantime, looks on and blinks in surprise". You could limit it to certain rooms or something like that.
I appreciate that this is more than the town meeting's couple of questions limit but I've already written a long post. Why not? Anyway, I'm done, and likely retreating back to forums-retirement. If you want to drag up personal problems with me from last week or 6, 12, 18 months ago directly, knock yourselves out - PM, whatever, but I probably won't give you the response you're looking for in this thread.I like the idea of breaking up events into smaller pieces that are more dynamic and customised to player response. It means less premptive preparation by the administration. It also means less 'omg I'm beat, let's just finish this up'. though it also means we should expect there to be 'timeouts' for mechanical responses (fresh mobs, room descs) to be done up. It could be in half an hour. It could be the next session/day. As a practical matter, these technical breaks need to be communicated though. Maybe through the use of the OOC announcement mechanism. Something to keep people in the loop and appetites whet.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."
That was 7 months ago. To do something -lasting- requires divine support and while promises are made, nothing was followed up on. We have a much smaller playerbase than Bloodloch, and it's hard to get a lot of people involved in doing things -without- divine support because the reality is that a lot of times, these people who don't like combat can expect to die 1-4 times for participating in the event, often times after the event is over. For these players, PK terrifies them and even though it's relatively meaningless, they take deaths very seriously. But with divine support, they feel like they might be doing something that might actually work (though history tells us that it probably won't be the case. I can't even count how many times we've helped someone\something only for the end to be 'lolartifice, you just awoke Galleus\a demon\whatever'.
I also find events versus the environment to be much more satisfying than events versus other players, simply because a) lasting effect and b) it eliminates a lot of the trollish attitudes by other players. How many times have our gatherings been holobombed or pitted just because 'oh, look, a group of Enorian players are standing together, they must be up to something!'. How many times have we tried to do something in the city (Festival of the Gods comes out as the most recent one) and that's when shadow players decide to start publicly attacking our villages or attacking us? I had 3 or 4 citizens after that come up and say 'I never want to organize a big event for the city again' after that because they felt like their time was wasted as other players got their jollies. I can't even talk them out of that stance, because it's a pattern shown to be true time and again.
@Riluo - but that's her point. 'react or decide to react'. We want to force -other- people to react for once, instead of us always having to make these decisions. It gets old playing the victim.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Someone needs to victimize me.
I had so much fun during the Shadow Plague because I was actually forced to struggle. It was awesome.
EDIT:
Not trying to belittle Daskalos's point. I think losing all the time would suck a lot, but winning all the time makes things feel pretty linear as well. I think most Divine events are pretty awesome, but experiencing actual loss is great for character development.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
While new to Aetolia I've not been new to IRE before coming here. I've done GM, city leader, order head countless times for long stretches on both 'good' and 'evil' sides of the games, bashed to 100 and further.. more times then I'd like to admit, took part in PvP for a long time. I know how politics go in IRE, I know how hard good leaders work to try to keep things fresh and fun without anyone else realizing it. I've done it before and that's why I've created Ianea as a narrow character to avoid positions of power and politics in general, been there, done that too many times to count and it always burns me out. I wanted to explore aspects that I never have before.
I came over to Aetolia because it has the reputation of the RP mud of IRE and I haven't been disappointed beyond there being a lot of people who are AFK (or maybe they're all just pretending so they don't have to talk to me). I noticed myself following suit and slipping into that pattern as well, so unless I'm actively playing, I've started logging off.
The big thing that I would love to see is an improvement in the quests. Quests are an aspect of the games that I've always tried to take part in but failed at time and time again. I'm constantly left wondering if I just don't get it or if the quest is bugged, if it's partial code left over from Achaea that no longer works, etc. It turns something that I think should be fun and immerse, something that expands the view, depth and story of the world into an extremely frustrating endeavour. As an example, Chapel Gardens was one that I was determined to do a month or two ago. I spent close to 2 hours trying to figure out what to say to the person with the key and after talking to multiple people ICly only figured out I was saying things -slightly- off.
I would love, love, love an adventure board in the city with say 5 quests or so. Even something as simple as this for an example in Duiran.
-Read board-
Word has come from the dream realm of those plagued by loss or desire. Seek them out if you care to aid them.
Timol within the Mamashi Tunnels fixates on the death of his enemies.
Scrivener Talas in Delve seeks longingly for a simple object.
etc
etc.
Perhaps you could obtain a bit of extra XP for doing the quests listed on the board? (Pure quest XP is pretty horrid, it would be nice if it was looked at as well to be a bit more comparable to bashing.) Have it rotate to new quests at the beginning of the year and not discriminate between 'good' and 'evil' quests. It's up to you to go find the mob and determine if it is a quest your character should undertake or not. Make sure the mob will respond in some leading way to a trigger word on the board. Timol would respond to enemy, for example. Maybe you rack up hidden points for completing quests from the board for the first time you do it in that year. Eventually you would receive a letter with the lead to an honours line quest. 'So and so needs extra help and we immediately thought of you due to your diligent past service.' or something.
There is just so much potential and lore hidden away in quests and it would be nice if there was a bit more direction to help players see it, especially new players. I understand that it would likely be a lot of work, but I feel like it is a very underutilized portion of the game and it's a shame. (I'd be willing to work at helping with anything regarding this. As I'm sure many others would be as well.)
You know why we get stuff? Because we DO STUFF. It's like money, in a way. Takes money to make money? Takes stuff to do stuff. You guys are like, 'give us god stuff'. You know what @Moirean does? She goes to them and says, 'hey can we do this?' they go yay or nay. If nay, she tries something else. If yay, she starts, and usually she has enough backing from us that the Gods actually follow up on it a lot of the time.
The fact that you guys seem to want to get your hands held and walked along the path to victory for your Age of Dawn disgusts me. You'll never get anything without fighting for it. Conflict is what it is. Get used to it, or stop fussing about it, you know?
Also, @Ianea, come RP at me. I'm all about the feralgrin and charades atm
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Idk. Maybe the problem isn't your gods. Maybe the problem is you guys and your attitudes. I don't know. There's a reason I barely play Resiak at all. Also, you know what, Faerah's gotten help from the gods on your side of the game several times when ours were mia 'cause RL, and that god helped out a metric crapload with the stuff that she asked for.
Idk what your problem is, but I don't think it's your gods. That's you in the plural, btw, not you singular, Dask. I'm not talking about YOU in particular, bro. We don't always get along very well, but I do respect the effort you put into, and have put into, doing stuff for your people. But one man does not, and CAN not, a city make.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Yes, admin help us a lot, but a lot of stuff we do on our own. Often, they can just toss a thing or two at us, and the city spins it off on their own. Sometimes nobody up there responds to ideas. They are busy and that's fine. Sometimes they do. Either way, we keep ourselves busy.
I think Enorian has partially backed themselves into a corner - you've set yourself up so you guys are judging success by things that, on many levels, just aren't possible. You aren't going to be able to wipe out Undeath or destroy Bloodloch. You could, however, cure an important Undead mob or destroy feeder facilities at Vilimo or strap a giant mirror on the lighthouse to amplify the sunlight's rays around the city's borders or get your scientists to build a rainbow cannon that harnesses ylem energy to shoot out sunbeams and unicorns. I think a broader spread of goals would help significantly and let you guys take away more success from story arcs, events and projects.
"The smell of dusty fur, sweet smoke, waiting and patience, a thing that time cannot kill. The moth that candles won't burn."
The bulk of my resources are a city treasury, a city who trusts me to use it, and citizens with tons of ideas. Eugenides prodded me into posting my to-do list to the leadership clan. I was initially wary. I liked being able to kinda control and refine what happened and was made, but I agreed - and I came back one day later to find stolen catapults, new citizens, and an entire new construction plan being developed to create an outer city wall and army training area. Aarbrok is building a mine field. People like doing stuff, and I think sometimes there's just not enough willingness to relax control and see what happens.
"The smell of dusty fur, sweet smoke, waiting and patience, a thing that time cannot kill. The moth that candles won't burn."
So, all of @Moirean's suggestions and points are great, good. I think people forget, or don't realize, that a person - or even a group of people in the same/similar position, get tired, get burnt out, get jaded and bitter, when the times they HAVE been actively involved in something, it's shown consistent patterns of backfire.
Don't mean to keep bringing these up, but I think this is important to understand where a lot of the people on this side are coming from:
- Bringing the Orcs into Enorian as refugees. Enorianite citizens are suddenly racist - not the player citizens, but the 'citizens citizens'. Leaders and player citizens alike are left trying to understand .. why. They fight against it, but they're in a bad spot - because no matter what they do, one way or the other, it's bad.
- Moving Moghedu and freeing a whole massive group of people - The Sentaari and Daru got a good bit of involvement in this, as main figures and people that got to know the Mhunna personally. Spent time speaking with her, made to feel like we were actively promoting change, creating a story, being a PART of the story. Suddenly Moghedu hates everyone, closed off to the world, and we're unable to do anything about that, and every role we had in it amounts to -nothing- except.. Moghedu is in a different location, and lore-explosion. (I like the lore explosion by the way, I'm not against that at all and I think the amount of work the admin have put in there is amazing.. but I'm also not able to fully appreciate it because of the taste the way the events played out left in my mouth). I don't think Damariel knocked on enough wood like Nola told him to.
These are only the most recent I can remember, and sure, the road ahead might seem more supportive to our wants/needs - what have you. But we've been ingrained with this expectation, this disappointment and frustration. I can only speak for myself as far as my feelings - I can understand why the others feel this way. I can understand why they'd be upset or feel neglected. I've been detached from those enough that it's not affecting my drive, but I'm focused on my guild specifically, and I don't have to worry about satisfying/energizing a whole city anymore.
It's hard to be creative when you feel boxed in, and when you expect it to all go wrong. I think that general feeling that sits like a blanket over the lifer side needs to be alleviated some, to give people the incentive to KEEP trying. Because sometimes people need that.
Disclaimer: I don't know if they really do or not, but I feel that the metaphor there is easy enough to spot.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
And even in that regard, nobody seems interested in -projecting-. Or at least, very few. I had a little RP I was doing with @daskalos that could have been fun and ultimately sort of just got forgotten in the pile, but other than that I don't know of anything cool that anyone decided we could do as a city on the holy/crusade vein. Rashar wasn't going to push it, because he doesn't (and I'm kind of meh about it OOCly as well) give a shit about it. In his mind it's like.. You're never going to kill them. They keep coming back. Wtf are you going to do? Why not just make it appealing to be a lifer and reduce their numbers a bit? So I wasn't, as Vanguard, going to push that on my own. Sorry.
I wasn't around for long enough, but I was going to try and get things done to up the fun levels. I know I talked to @dhar about the first day I was CL, and it was an interesting conversation to say the least. How to ICly tell someone that you just want to make the place funner so that you attract players? Heh. I don't know. He seemed receptive enough, though, so I don't know that he's to fault in that regard.
The impetus was on us and we (granted, in a really short time) never got beyond squabbling about how dismissive I was or how I wanted to give Moirean the keys to the city or whether or not we were going to muster the ranks and march to liberate the orcs. And really, at the end of the day, my time there was an eyeblink that isn't even relevant - this is something that has built for longer than I've been even a Herald, and doesn't seem to be going away now that I'm gone.
I don't know. I personally feel like Enorian is just a playground for Dhar's Order, with a few Damarielites sprinkled in on the fringes and a bunch of people from different places who aren't going to get enough headway to make any changes. Are there exceptions? Sure. But it's not far off from the truth, even though of the dozen or so people who'll agree with me when we're talking elsewhere IC/OOC, there might be 1 or 2 that'll come out and say it for fear of being bashed and chastised. I'll be the asshole.
I dunno. It was just a comical thing to me, and probably not relevant to the rest of the post.
A major issue is the 'us/we against them' attitude of the game, on an OOC level. @Daskalos says 'THEY always get good events', @Ishin says, "WE do the work to get good events", etc. I've played both sides. Eno/Duiran have lots of active gods, get lots of blessings, and get attention. Spinesreach has less active gods, gets blessed less, but tends to have their own events because they have people who know how to get events running - and I think having that tends to bring more Gods to play, if that makes sense.
I can name events that the 'dark' side was excluded from by force, and that's not a good feeling either. Jaru being rebuilt jumps to mind - I went there and saw an orphanage/stuff being re-built and so I called @Borscin (GM of the Carnifex at the time). @Mazzion came to check stuff out too. While we were poking around, a mob got turned invincible and set aggro on us, because we were evil and bad and stuff, I guess - and apparently told Enorian too, because next thing we know there's 19 people (yes, 19. I counted) after us. I dueled @Haven once, got his burst then died once, and then got rolled by 19 people total. When we went back, we got them all with a singularity chain that I baited them into and they quit coming back, but the forum lit up with people complaining we were trolling them, we were horrible people, that we wouldn't let them have anything nice. That attitude is a problem. That attitude is a problem for EITHER SIDE. Conflict tends to be met with overwhelming force and a lot of baww from the losing side, regardless of who that might be. That isn't on admin, or gods, that's on the players. Were I still playing, this would be myself included; in order for things to get better and conflict to matter again, we need to collectively stop being unicorns about losing and accept that sometimes bad things happen to us, and sometimes bad things happen to other people, and that's what makes the game fun in the end.
If I had my way, things would be a lot different. Events like Neventesh wouldn't be just 'drop Moghedu on BL', it would be BL is trying to kill the Mhuns to beat them back, Enorian is trying to protect Moghedu so that they can finish preparations to move their halls. If BL wins, then Mog stays. If Eno wins, Mog moves. Players just influenced the world, and competed against each other.
Events don't always have to be pk-fests either. @Iosyne and @Slyphe are naked wrestling. Both need essence to pin the other, so their respective Orders have to bash lots for the next few days to offer, with the most essence offered letting that God/side win. Arget Mawhatever is trying to decide who to ally with against the incoming Grecht Empire. Spinesreach and Duiran send diplomats to try to win them over with emotes and logic and deals - and if Spinesreach offers to protect them, Duiran can try to subvert that later by bashing the area. Spinesreach would then have to actually uphold their agreements and stop the Duiran person from doing it.
It would probably have to be something people are eased into, because the habit tends to be lose -> run to the forums to cry -> repeat. But I think that, once people get over themselves a little bit and get used to losing in meaningful ways again, the feeling of WINNING in a meaningful way might be enough of a balm to soothe when they lose.
I've always said I can get my ass kicked as long as I get one good lick in to make the other guy remember. We don't get that lick, we take a 12 round beating and win on a disqualification.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."