Requirements to get class

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  • I never understood why there are so many ranks in guilds, but ( at least the ones I have any experience with )only really care about the first like.. 3, for class. And 5, for like.. full membership, or status, or whatever?

    Gr3 means, literally, that you've learned the 'skills' enough that you would remember them when you leave. Why not make full guild membership at 7 or 8 or 10, if you want to maintain that elitist sort of feel? Maybe less respect, no votes, shitty missions, what have you. I would have no problem with that as a member, and feel like it would make getting somewhere meaningful.

    I think it's just time to stop worrying about sets of mechanical skills and figure out how to validate and legitimize the guilds with role.. and play. The Carnifex do it well. So do the Sentaari, and the Daru. I think Templars as well, considering most of the people who pk with it aren't Templar, and most of the members do not. Maybe those guild masters should set up a clinic.
    SolariaAryanneAngwe
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    I remember a while back there being a ruling about how you CAN'T require a time limit on progression - you can't force time limits or, on the flip side, force them to progress if they just want to sit at GR1. Which I've seen some guilds do. If you're intentionally trying to impose time limits, all it seems like you're doing is deliberately trying to delay people from getting class. If a person genuinely knows their stuff, just pass them. Most guilds are pretty good with requirements with the exception of a few, and I think pretty much everyone knows which ones those are.

    I'm going to agree with there being too many guildranks. They kind of stop feeling important after GR10, and feel like they're just...there. And most of the guild privs get assigned to earlier ranks. It might be better to just reduce the number of guildranks or add in more perks that can be assigned to higher ones.
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CA
    That's one thing I love about cabal it's curriculum is we really enforce that rank doesn't matter. It's moreso your position in what sort of duties will be asked of you and we leave the curriculum to help develop your role play by means of vocations and jobs within the guild.

    We focus highly on qualities that make you a cabalist and not the other way around how it is interpreted and how it is explained by your perspective understanding making no two cabalists a cookie cutter copy and I think that's absolutely wonderful
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CA
    Of course on that note we love involvement and promoting for it if our people are ambitious it makes us all happy
  • I like this overall change, personally. I'm someone who gets really into the lore of games and enjoys writing those essays that people seem to dread - but I don't think it's fair to force those on anyone to gain class anymore than I'd advocate requiring a bunch of one on one spars.
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    Sorry, saw one say no long limits and one say no limits? To reiterate, if I'm not allowed to put people I'm unsure about on some kind of wait period (probably a year) then my vote for them will forever be no.
    image
  • It may be nice to give guilds the flexibility to perhaps have a second list of requirements for older members. The ones outlined are totally great for a brand new player, but an older person is gonna come in with the majority of those things checked off.

    It's not really a big problem, but I know I personally, when joining the Sentaari, worked a bit with them being like, hey, since I pretty much meet these specific requirements, why don't I do this alternative task instead? Granted, I wouldn't say I went over and beyond, but if an alternative requirement route other than the meet circle x, get these curatives, etc. had been laid out for me, I would have really enjoyed it.


    Teani
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Administrator, Immortal
    Xenia said:

    It may be nice to give guilds the flexibility to perhaps have a second list of requirements for older members. The ones outlined are totally great for a brand new player, but an older person is gonna come in with the majority of those things checked off.

    It's not really a big problem, but I know I personally, when joining the Sentaari, worked a bit with them being like, hey, since I pretty much meet these specific requirements, why don't I do this alternative task instead? Granted, I wouldn't say I went over and beyond, but if an alternative requirement route other than the meet circle x, get these curatives, etc. had been laid out for me, I would have really enjoyed it.

    That was part of the discussion. If experienced players wish to go through a different set of requirements on an optional basis, that's cool. But they shouldn't be forced to do anything outside of the ordinary new member requirements.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
  • I have a question, which first depends on whether or not it's still in place that anyone can go to Certimene to get inducted into a guild.

    If they can, and it's someone who has previously been in the guild and created enough of an issue that they were subsequently forbidden from said guild again, are we not allowed to work in our best interests and remove said person under those grounds?
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Administrator, Immortal
    At present, I don't think that's possible, so you should be safe. That said, if that hypothetical case could and did happen, I'd personally support you.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    Nola
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    The reason for the increased reqs was to see if the person had changed, the timeframe required to complete them gave you a decent understanding of the person. If I'm not allowed to do either then I'm risking head aches, unneccisary drama, and my time for someone who's likely going to jump ship.
    image
    Ishin
  • Yeah there are players I would rather guild quit than share a guild with. And I was there first. Certimene needs to not induct non-novices if all these restrictions are going in - some players are toxic to the extent that they actively hurt a guild, and while there aren't many active NOW...

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
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    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
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    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
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    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
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    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    ArekaIshin
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    @Xenia: That's sort of what I like about the Cabal way of doing things. They don't really have a strict way of progressing. They focus on certain personality traits (qualities) of a character that they need to develop to "fit in".

    At first I was a bit daunted by this, for me, new way of doing things. I imagined myself stuck forever at GR2 unless I managed some huge accomplishment to mark myself as remarkable all over the game world. This, however, was not the case and it was kind of easy to just discuss all the details of what was required, bend a little, twist a little and make it fit my character as well as the guild.

    I don't think there's a problem if guilds want to set up a separate route for old players compared to new players, as long as it's not -more difficult- or -more time-demanding- than what is for a new player. Keep things reasonable. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, not restrictive.



  • It would seem like a reasonable fix for the problem would be, like several people have mentioned, simply raising the "full member status" to GR rank 4+. There's nothing here that says a GR3 has to have any particular privs or status within the guild, merely that they should be able to obtain class without unreasonable rigamarole.

    Make a clear line of progression up to GR10 or something instead of just GR3, so that they're really have to work for it in order to be in a position where they could upset the foundation of the guild if they're a questionable entrant. Just having class shouldn't be a point where they're gonna drastically upset the status quo - really all that means is: yes, I could quit now and still use these skills I've invested effort into.

    The other benefit to this is that it'll, likely, actually keep more progression happening. players will feel like they're getting rewarded throughout the process instead of having a huge load of tasks to accomplish with one measly GF at the end of it all. Overall better for membership, fun, and maintaining activity. All while not impacting the functionality of the guild!

    I do have a question though: It is stated anywhere what acceptable reasons for denying guild entry are? AKA: if you're, ya know 90% sure someone will merely join, get class, then quit, are you allowed to tell them "not until you've proved you're sincerely interested in staying here"?

    Mephistoles
  • I don't really understand why that's an issue if they're still having to go through several rounds of tasks to complete to earn GR3 to get class, whether or not that's the only reason. It's like putting an apprentice through training before they earn their stripes.
    Slyphe
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    I pretty much like everything about this. If someone is really being a problem/toxic you can kick them out. This is about advancement not keeping troublemakers around.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    edited August 2014
    Once someone has class (GR3!) kicking them out of the guild is way more acceptable from what I recall, anyways! Since you're not making them lose lessons.
    Seeing the kinds of tasks people DO get put through, as non-novices joining guilds, super glad alternate advancement is optional. Really what I'd like to see is more incentives for gaining higher ranks so that people have some reason to want to earn more ranks past 3. I guess that's something for guilds to work on internally though. Probably.
    Aryanne
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    Now that I'm at home and not on the phone, I can clarify my point because I'm not sure you're picking up what I'm throwing down.

    I'm fairly certain that everyone has characters that they wouldn't want in their guild, for what ever reason. This game has been around for a long time and everyone has a history. Now, I know people can change, people can grow up, and people can move on; so in that spirit, perma-banning or denying shouldn't be allowed. But how do you tell if someone has indeed changed?

    You could challenge/test/or parole them before entering, but to me that seems severely unfair. I wouldn't want to be orgless for x time to prove myself worthy of entering, that is worse than stupid hard reqs.

    Alternatively, you could grant them a 100% free and clean slate. If you do, kudos because you're a better person than I am. I am pretty confident there are not many people who will truly be nonjudgmental.

    The third option, and the one I've been promoting is parole. Let them in, let them up to gr2, but let them wait 1 or 2 years, 2 being the max. Everyone gets to meet them, experience them, and see how they currently play their character. By then the guildmates should have an idea if the player either benefits the guild (good), is a neutral element (still fine by me), or is harmful (bad).

    The negatives of the third option, players have to wait a week or 2 for leaving the guild with class or running for secretary/gm. I don't see that as unreasonable.


    What you've been hearing: "I want to put up the hardest reqs possible, or severely long wait times on people I don't like, and if I don't get that then I will never let anyone in my guild."

    I promise you that is not what I mean, nor will I ever play like that. The people I said I'd vote no to fall under the category above.
    image
    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    We do this but after gr3. I'm not bothered by people getting class outside of when alt armies are rushed to gr3 for elections (which thankfully has not be a frequent occurrence in the last year or so).

    We recently had this arise, a particularly problematic person was given a chance in the guild. They rushed through their progression to gr3 (though there were some issues with those interviews overly-skimming due to their age). They wanted to move on to gr4 which is the entry stage of the Knighthood process (Aspirancy).

    For us, GR3 is full entry level membership - you have a vote, you can keep your skills, but you also aren't a student any longer in the sense that you are fully 100% responsible for your actions and are not given the leniency Pages and Squires are given.

    In this case, the person hadn't changed or grown up at all since joining, so failed their first examination. They came back and tried again, and still hadn't grown at all, or addressed the issues, so failed again.

    While it's a game and fun, we are responsible for what we do, and for Templar, Knighthood's the big shebang. Not going to Knight someone who isn't ready - already given too many free passes and had that come back to bite us. After gr3, we've given additional work outside of our gr5 progression for folk who struggle or aren't really putting in the work/time/thought.

    You guys can do this, just after gr3. If you're pinning everything solely on class, there's other issues that need to be addressed.
    image
    OmeiElieErzsebet
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    Another aspect I think some people have a problem with is that they still consider CLASS to be a precious commodity they don't want others to gain too easily. GR3 is the class-obtaining rank after all and has little to do with whether a person has been granted enough time in the guild to prove if they have changed or not.

    Personally, I wish this sentiment would change and that people would focus more on the guild's RP and ideals being more precious than the skills.



    ArekaSolariaIlyonKerrynHavenLimEmelleAuresae
  • I guess I don't understand why it has to be GR3, is all. If they're a person you can't stand and don't want to hang out with, why would you want to prolong their class-acquisition-guild-hop any longer than necessary, if that is in fact what they're trying to do? And if they did change, they're going to show you. Maybe I'm not tracking, but I don't understand why GR3 has anything to do with anything other than an arbitrary rank that the game requires in order for you to quit and retain class.

    I'm not sure if the code reflects, or how exactly it works, but why not just up the minimum rank for secretary/running for a leadership spot? Like I said, make becoming a full member something harder to achieve, and -that- can be reflected in roleplay, not the class.

    I dunno. I could just think differently, here.
    ArekaJami
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    @Teani - yeah. If gr3's the bar, then I feel the bar is set too low. Gr3 is a protection of monetary investment, just treat it as that. Guilds can and should reassess and raise their various bars of what is full community membership and the goal to climb to before coasting.
    image
    Aarbrok
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    My point has little to do with handing out class and more to do with trying to keep the guild full of people that Jensen will respect and trust. I really don't want to turn people away without giving them a chance to prove me wrong. It's hard to make this stance without using names for references, but think about Areka's experiences. Are there no characters out there that she would have an impossible time welcoming them into the fold? Would she give them that complete clean slate into the guild or would she want a trial period first?
    image
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    No, but we also have our bar of worth at gr5 and are more than happy to punish people who are acting out/being problematic.

    We've had quite a few people come in that I really didn't want to be there, but my job to the game's to give a chance and to at least give opportunities so I can say I tried. And that has bitten me in the butt a few times (like the coup). I definitely have deep reservations about some people - and if their behaviour is so wholly against my guild and its values, I will reject them, or encourage them to seek apprenticeship since their living behaviour is very different than their spoken intentions, and we cannot in good faith embrace them in the guild until there is consistency. But people that are in the middle? Other than the coup and passing moments of facepalming, it doesn't cost me anything but time (time I'm already dallying away in the game) to give them a chance. And giving them a chance, even if it gives me headaches, at least makes me feel better for the trying.
    image
  • I fail to see the problem, simply promote them to GR3 and let them have their trial period then.

    ArekaRashar
  • Then do that at GR 4, I'd say.

    Then the person isn't becoming a full member any time soon - maybe not probation, but there's nothing wrong with ICly making sure a they know exactly how you feel about them. All these requirements are doing is making sure people aren't being ridiculously blocked from getting the class until everyone in the guild feels sufficiently 'convinced' that they're deserving. Because, let's face it. That's subjective as heck.

    Newb requirements are newb requirements - easy to get to GR3 means they're excited about the game, and the guild. If progress slows down after that, well. They were bound to run into an obstacle at some point. At least they're vested and not discouraged at this point. And if it's an older player, they'll either be interested in the guild and not being a jackass, in which case they'll apply themselves, or not. In which case you give them the hairy eye and make them mop the floors until they quit or straighten up.
    Areka
  • I'd actually kinda like some admin clarification on that too. If someone goes and joins class via Certimene, and they're a certifiable PITA, can we GR03 then boot? What is the line for booting people out, anyway?

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

  • My understanding was that they can only join via Certimene if they've never been in the guild before? Might not prevent some new characters, but the older ones have probably been around.

    I'm probably a bit harsher in my ideas of what constitutes booting. I've always been a 'let them in, give them a chance, because kicking them out takes me 1 second' sort of dude. I mean, if a person is trying to complete their tasks and isn't being disrespectful or breaking guild laws, I'd say you'd have a hard time justifying the boot. But breaking laws, arguing with members, refusing to shut up when told to shut up multiple times?

    Boot them. Worst case, they issue and you'll get your answer then.
    Trager
  • Areka said:

    @Teani - yeah. If gr3's the bar, then I feel the bar is set too low. Gr3 is a protection of monetary investment, just treat it as that. Guilds can and should reassess and raise their various bars of what is full community membership and the goal to climb to before coasting.

    I can't quote this and agree enough.

    Many guilds as of now seem to struggle with getting members to do anything beyond GR3. If you'd like to have a super special/rigorous path to be considered a 'full member', do feel free, but simply make it beyond GR3.

    If anything, bumping anything that contrasts the current policy up a couple of ranks will simply encourage people to actually continue working beyonds GR3, which is far from a bad thing whatsoever.

    Elie
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