State of Kaido

Mephistoles

Honestly, I think you're worrying too much about getting nerfed. Use your class to the very best of your ability, and if it gets nerfed, there was probably something wrong with it.

I remember there was a point where Teradrim could stun lock. It got nerfed. It should have gotten nerfed. The way to balance things isn't to hide them until you think you might really need them or try to keep them secret. Our admins are mostly volunteers, mostly longtime players of the game, and generally pretty fair.

So when you say things like "I am still going to worry about nerfs to monk skills given it's the class I main so I'm not likely to spam to much kai anything." I think you might not be using Kaido to the fullest extent. Also you should pre-kai. @Serrice knows her stuff.

Stathan

Mephistoles said:

Honestly, I think you're worrying too much about getting nerfed. Use your class to the very best of your ability, and if it gets nerfed, there was probably something wrong with it.

I remember there was a point where Teradrim could stun lock. It got nerfed. It should have gotten nerfed. The way to balance things isn't to hide them until you think you might really need them or try to keep them secret. Our admins are mostly volunteers, mostly longtime players of the game, and generally pretty fair.

So when you say things like "I am still going to worry about nerfs to monk skills given it's the class I main so I'm not likely to spam to much kai anything." I think you might not be using Kaido to the fullest extent. Also you should pre-kai. @Serrice knows her stuff.

Yeah, I'll have the lingering worry no matter what given my history of things. Like clever tera with a crown stunlocking people with the arti to reduce stun time.(I actually got a divine warning to not use smackdown/golem pound and shortly there after was jumped and had to resort to it to survive and run away. I got in trouble for keeping myself alive.) Handaxe/Dwhisper. Quite a few things I used to get ahead resulted in nerfing/hot fixes and so on. Yes, I'm probably being overparanoid about it but that isn't likely to change.

However, I am working on more group related things and with a few def's I've been neglecting I had @Ezalor hit me for around 350 earlier at a lesser while he was in Teradrim. So I'm working on that aspect of it.

And I have been listening to @Serrice a bit more, like I should have been. Got a few ideas for some stuff that might buy me a little time so I can survive to banish or enfeeble. Also working on synergistic ideas with Bene and Haven for group limb stuff that may prove useful in the future.


I'm aware of how things came across when I initially made this thread and I realize I made mistakes in jumping to conclusions without proper testing. I'm working on that now rather than complaining that something doesn't work right.

Irruel

The problem though, is that you ask for a buff to monk audit, while not using the class to full potential then you're inviting nerfs to the class at the same time as a buff.

Sometimes stuff is op and needs nerfing. Don't think about that sort of thing too much - just enjoy the class as it is.

Stathan

Right now my only thoughts on a buff to our audit would be minor numbers changes and honestly after changing statpack and such around I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Minor changes at this point would result in the class being way to tanky with decent damage and strong limb offense. Not exactly a balanced thing.

Ishin

The yields of a little research and experimentation are amazing.

Exodus

If you like testing, you basically have to join the Syssin.

Seir

Monk has been hit with nonstop downgrades over the last few months. Many of them well-deserved, but they all neglect to take into account that Monk is incredibly squishy and their utility in stuff like Kai Heal and Transmute is not enough to justify it. I say that because Monk is very time-reliant and RNG-based for their offense. The more time they waste off-balance/eq from Kai Heal and Transmute is time that an enemy has to pre-restore or figure out where mind blank was hitting. I do believe the class needs help and I don't feel that the class' potential in group fights is greater than some others. If we're judging classes solely by a group combat potential, we'd have to put Templar and Vampire into the limelight as well.

Ezalor

Transmute doesn't actually use bal/eq at all. With the nerfed mana costs Transmute probably makes Monks one of the most effectively tanky classes there is. It's still iffy when fighting against a Bloodborn or Luminary though.

Serrice

Only BB imo. Lumi damage pressure is nbd unless they decide to go sensitivity smite on you, but then they can't push other routes. BB can push affs/damage/mana all at once (which IS a problem)

Nalor

Ezalor said:

Transmute doesn't actually use bal/eq at all. With the nerfed mana costs Transmute probably makes Monks one of the most effectively tanky classes there is. It's still iffy when fighting against a Bloodborn or Luminary though.

But yet a normal attack does around 1k will do like 1800+ to a monk ? how is that tanky .. as you need bal/eq to use transmute @Ezalor

Ishin

Transmute doesn't use eq/bal.

Stathan

Doesn't use it but does require it, which I believe is what @Nalor was saying.

Ishin

....so wait until you have bal/eq, transmute, rinse/repeat next round/as needed? I'm not really sure how that's an argument at all.

Angwe

You can use the same coding logic applied to endgame curing to put it in yr system.

Toz

Gimme monk, I can get it nerfed I bet.
*grabby hands*

Irruel

Monks still have mind drain, right?
It's not a bad thing to be able to use against mana-pressuring classes.

Ezalor

If you die in the span of regaining bal/eq once nothing was gonna save you.

Seir

Fact is as Serrice said, however. Bloodborn are a class that are pushing affs, mana, and health. Given that Sentinel was a problem when it was pushing just health and affs, you now have a class that is viable in pushing all three and who also has access to a wide array of afflictions and truelocking (another reason for Sentinel's downgrade by the same people defending Bloodborn now). Combine that with a high audit, great utility, and whose weaknesses are completely nullified by two artifacts... yeah, you have a problem. Quite honestly, those who complained about quickfoot Sentinel and now defend Bloodborn are being massively hypocritical.

Rashar

I thought this was about monks.

Seir

It goes back to my earlier subject about Monks: Kaido isn't the problem, it is Monk's low audit in the face of classes like Bloodborn or Templar who can unload a large amount of damage on an individual without any real set up and leaves them with little in the means to respond. Bloodborn was brought up just because it's a universal problem in general, yet somehow manages to remain in its current state.

Stathan

Strictly speaking. I can hold my own, and have beaten @Conner as an example in monk vs his lumi and templar. Kaido played enough of a role in it with cripple every so often he couldn't keep his offense up. I'm iffy about fighting a BB though because I take tons of damage (tm) from scythe/tongue lash.

I could possibly, if I get insanely lucky, take a BB as monk, but it would depend on their offense, skill level with the class and likely just how hard they hit. Using @Ilyon as an example. With scythe/tonguelash I take in the neighborhood of 1800-2k a round. So what if the audit is low, I'm sure there are ways around this, using numbness is coming to mind right now.

If there is an offense, there is a way to beat it, no matter your audit. Comes from what quite a few people have said in this, work with your offense to the best of your ability. I've been toying with more stuff in Kaido recently because of that advice and getting hard numbers to work with.

Seir

If there's a way to beat the Bloodborn offense as a Monk, please do tell me (and it shouldn't involve "luck", that's just even more indicative of a problem). Numbness is going to make matters worse for you once it wears off because while it does a great amount of reduction, it comes back to you in a large burst that you have to handle on top of the mana pressure they're dishing out. We can disagree and point fingers about who isn't doing what all day for their offense, but the problem is that Monk's audit has not changed in a meta where high damage/mana pressure is the norm. They've had problems with these classes for ages and Kaido isn't sufficient enough reasoning to justify it.

Edit: Lycanthrope has the same exact problem. Low audit and drops against classes that hit like trucks with little to no set up involved in the process. It's the low audits in conjunction with the high pressure.

Irruel

Monks have always had it tough against classes that pressure mana, because a large portion of monk defense comes from converting mana into health. This means that any attack which hits mana is effectively hitting health, and if an attack hits both, then it is doing double damage.

This is why hyena morph, back in the day, was effective against monks and cabalists both - warhammer+howl for damage + mana drain.

Stathan

I'll put out that this thread was created with thoughts on Kaido in mind.

Now I'll go off topic for half a second to point out that Monks aren't designed to take out vampires or Lumis due to the mana drains. With focus curing affs, blocks, kai trance and such going. There is a constant tax on our mana that can occasionally be offset by splitmind and a moon tat but not always. Put in a little bit of a tax from a Vamp or BB with bleed for clot or tonguelash (I think thats the one that does mana damage) and you're basically asking to get annihilated. Same thing with curing focus affs against a lumi. Indirect mana pressure is an issue as well, especially since absolve is in a higher range than annihilate.

Back on topic, using kaido effectively I've stalled out a few offenses with cripple and enfeeble (putting serious pressure on them, usually results in a shield) but have yet to get ahead enough to finish. The more I work at it the more I realize that you can use things like this to your advantage. Blackout into cripple for example, or enfeeble into an axk combo. That is surprisingly effective against people with 5-6.5k life. Not so much above that. Yes, the monk audit puts you at a disadvantage to most high burst offenses, but it also has to balance out the fact that a monk can kill you from full life with a third bbt. Or they can radiance (rarely, I might add. the eq knock to high) at range. And if done properly you can set up deliverance mid lesser and get a few kills in that way.

Blaming 1 thing (the audit in this case) for not being able to kill someone is basically how I started this thread. I was irritated because I couldn't accomplish squat and after thinking about it I realized I was irritated about group combat, which monks are not really built for. You can't just say "You can't beat this class because your audit sucks" when in actuality it just takes a significant bit more of planning and tactics to do it. To beat a BB as a monk, you have to keep your mana up, your affs cured decently well, use cripple and jpk to your advantage, for some breathing time between their lack of offense.

Irruel

Don't forget mind drain for your anti-annihilate defensive move. If you can negate that strategy then you're forcing them to go down a different kill route, such as truelock.

By doing this you may be forcing the BB to use a strategy you're better suited to fighting against.

^ I'm not sure how valid this is. It is true for luminary, but I'm not sure for BB as I don't know if the BB does less mana pressure while going for a truelock.

Ezalor

Lock isn't a feasible tactic on Bloodborn unless Bloodmeld is running. Luckily that does nothing vs Monks. The dominant aff strategy is to load em up with 10+ affs and Mindburrow.

Stathan

Which is why I'm suggesting using cripple and jumpkick to your advantage. Those few seconds out of the room and knocking down the BB can save your ass if nothing else but to get away.

Angwe

Ooh, this thread just got cool.