State of Kaido

Stathan

Branching this conversation off of the rage posts recently. Hopefully this is specifically going to be used to Kaido arguments and not turn into a discussion on monks as a whole.

The general unrest with monks right now, the ones I talk to ( @Ilyon is not on that list), have problems with Kai generation.

With conservation and boost you can effectively use Kai 1v1. In a group a monk will die to fast to make use of their built up kai. Unless we started being real cheap and I'm not going into details but I really don't feel like getting monks nerfed again for using a skill in excess.

Kai net's removal I'm on the fence about as I can see the reasoning behind it. Yes, I used Kai banish to a hilariously obscene amount in a duel with @Ezalor uh, five months ago or so, maybe a little more. Since then there have been changes to that. No problem. I can still banish 1v1 or cripple, or kai strike or even deliverance if I'm feeling froggy. The problem is that in a group fight, where you are actually likely to see monks, they are focus fired for the reasonings of how effective Kaido -used- to be in my opinion. Our audit (including transmute and numbness and blocks. Spent a lot of time doing math) is still such that if we are focused at a Lesser/Raid other such instance. It will take 3 non-coms about 3-5 seconds to damage us out depending on class. So going in against top tier fighters, monks have no hope of anything at lessers.

Given how much I -personally- take at a lesser from scythe/tongelash-dwhisper, earth batter, frenzy, ssl or what ever the carnifex attack is. Sure, I might get 100 kai, but in that 3 seconds of kai generation I'm going to be incapacitated with afflictions/stuns/damage to the point that if I don't shield spam (and that doesn't work either btw) I'm not using my kai. I think, I managed to get off 1 cripple in my last 15 lessers, and that's only a guess.

Aarbrok

It has always been my understanding to organize getting kai from a teammate in group fights, having a good reserve built up so that when the enemy comes you can throw out an initial banish/cripple/enfeeble to get things rolling.

Solo however there should not be a problem, sadly though I dont think balancing skills to team situations is necessarily the right idea, due to the fact that it can cause much larger problems by doing that I would imagine. I could be wrong, im not really a combatant, though in other games (Achaea) I was Renshi of the Ashura for a while, and monk seems rather similar here

Serrice

I actually asked you earlier last lesser if you wanted to pre-kai up and you spoke not a word...

Stathan

Serrice said:

I actually asked you earlier last lesser if you wanted to pre-kai up and you spoke not a word...

Actually, I did respond. I said if I pre-kai'd I'd just hit deliverance, rack up a slew of kills, and end up getting the skill nerfed. It's a non issue at this point though.

Aarbrok

Deliverance has been troll status forever, but its easy enough to avoid if you pay attention, I doubt they would nerf something that offers an obvious warning, that would be like nerfing singularities...

Stathan

Aarbrok said:

Deliverance has been troll status forever, but its easy enough to avoid if you pay attention, I doubt they would nerf something that offers an obvious warning, that would be like nerfing singularities...

My point is I could start deliverance as soon as they hit mind net, and it would be up moments before they came into the room. Knowing I'm first target, I'd wipe out their entire squad in about nothing flat. And if that happened more than once there would be rage about it, complaining that there's no message if you just walk in and quite possible a list of other reasons the skill should be "balanced" like most of Monk skills have been.

Not going out of Kaido though because that's not the point of this thread.

Toz

Kaido's fine as it is. There are ways to use it that are not being taken into account, and you're dismissing a viable way you're being told to use it as 'it'll just get nerfed'. That's really not a fair or valid argument. That being said, if you think monk's weak you're welcome to give it to me and I'll show you how much it can be made to do crazy stuff. Or I guess I can dust off Kog and try going to lessers with him.

Irruel

Stathan said:

Aarbrok said:

Deliverance has been troll status forever, but its easy enough to avoid if you pay attention, I doubt they would nerf something that offers an obvious warning, that would be like nerfing singularities...

My point is I could start deliverance as soon as they hit mind net, and it would be up moments before they came into the room. Knowing I'm first target, I'd wipe out their entire squad in about nothing flat. And if that happened more than once there would be rage about it, complaining that there's no message if you just walk in and quite possible a list of other reasons the skill should be "balanced" like most of Monk skills have been.

Not going out of Kaido though because that's not the point of this thread.

There is a message when you walk in. Used to be anyway - have the white glowing eyes changed in QL?

Aarbrok

I have the Deliverance message flagged a different color for when you enter the room, it shows your eyes as glowing and your head bowed or something like that, its EASILY avoidable if you pay attention

Stathan

Given this is exactly the response I was expected, I've got nothing more to say. As usual, the community at large is right.

Lim

Deliverance won't get nerfed because it involves them hitting you first.

Even if they get wiped, all that will happen is that they think twice before targeting you first, next time. Which is exactly what you're trying to achieve.

Stathan

1. Going off of old deliverance intel was a mistake.
2. @Toz I never once said monks were weak. I said they had issues in groups and commented that I have issues 1v1.
3. I am not interested in turning the discussion into a flame war, or string of insults.
4. I am also not taking into account Tekura or Telepathy in this thread as it was made based on issues with Kaido. I would be more than happy to have a discussion with anyone regarding the class as a whole, even if I feel that currently Kaido as a skillset is hard to utilize outside of defences.

Toz

If you're going to dismiss the advice given, fine. But do know this: I didn't know what kainet WAS until after I quit playing Kog. I did more than fine without it, using Kaido. As a stand-alone? Kaido isn't going to keep you alive, or kill anyone. Paired with certain other skills you have, it's very powerful in a support role. I used to kill people using nothing but Telepathy and Kaido. I was a mini-@Benedicto with deliverance, and I managed to do a lot of useful stuff USING Kaido because I understood (at least on a basic level) when and where to deploy it.

Stathan

The only advice I've seen is that deliverance has a message when you walk in. The rest of it is a lot of "you can do more, you're wrong, monk isn't weak". Which I'm not going to read through fully and weed out advice because the delivery is insulting in nature.

I can do decently 1v1 with monk. I know I'm not going to be able to take out someone like Ezalor given my current curing because I get my curing out paced by his afflictions. I'll still fight though. Ask Dourif, he came to claim a bounty and I put up a fight. Probably a very weak one from his view but still put up a fight.

The purpose of this was thread was to address issues with kaido, if the general notion is there are no issues then the thread has run it's course and I need to revise strategy more, and the thread can be closed.

Serrice

I think we're all moving a little off topic, jumping onto some weird tangent about deliverance when the thread is about kaido as a whole.

So moving back on topic: the point stands that you could've pre-kaied up instead of dismissing my advice with some pithy joke of deliverance. Pre-kai'd, popped conservation when they prismed in, then went to town with enfeebles. So personally, I don't see anything wrong with the state of kaido presently.

Stathan

Serrice said:

I think we're all moving a little off topic, jumping onto some weird tangent about deliverance when the thread is about kaido as a whole.

So moving back on topic: the point stands that you could've pre-kaied up instead of dismissing my advice with some pithy joke of deliverance. Pre-kai'd, popped conservation when they prismed in, then went to town with enfeebles. So personally, I don't see anything wrong with the state of kaido presently.

Point noted.

Irruel

Also, deliverance away if that's what it takes to discourage being focus-fired at the beginning.

On the odd occasion I rock up at a lesser in lycan, I use quietus reprieve (feign death for the unenlightened) as much as it takes to get myself down the bottom of their kill priority. As sentinel I'll run away and snipe with my crossbow the moment anyone looks at me sideways.

It's been years since I played monk. Obviously the days of CTS tanking whole teams are long gone, but what class actually can tank a team these days? Do whatever you need to do to punish them for targeting you first, and see how it goes.

Reevaluate the situation after doing that. I don't think anyone is saying you're -wrong-, just that you really ought to use the skills you do have to full potential, which means pre-kai-ing and deliverance if deliverance will do something useful (I suspect you're better off saving your kai to banish their leader on entry, and enfeebling your team's first target next balance. But that is just conjecture.)

Riluo

I would not stress to much because the moment I enter a lesser I am the first to be killed in all of 4 secs flat. You just got to do what you can and as a BB that isn't much when you enter a room that are all targeting you

Seir

Deliverance is pretty amazing if you're a known priority target for the other side and they all rush in and hit you first. I've had a bit of success on Seir by switching to Monk unexpectedly and essentially delbomb the other side because they started wailing on me first. Combine with culling blade for maximum profit.

The problem with Monk isn't Kaido though. Monk's problems is the incredibly low audit in a game where the top classes hit like absolute dumpster trucks while delivering simultaneous pressure elsewhere. The only exception to this is Syssin.

Monk hits like a truck when artifacted but other than that, they rely mostly on luck with Mind Blank to beat pre-restore. Daru is apparently on the list for a change, but hopefully Monk will get something down the road as well since they're still a legacy class from Achaea.

Edit: And quite honestly, Monk is an incredibly boring class in my opinion.

Nalor

Serrice said:

I think we're all moving a little off topic, jumping onto some weird tangent about deliverance when the thread is about kaido as a whole.

So moving back on topic: the point stands that you could've pre-kaied up instead of dismissing my advice with some pithy joke of deliverance. Pre-kai'd, popped conservation when they prismed in, then went to town with enfeebles. So personally, I don't see anything wrong with the state of kaido presently.

@Serrice But point is he has to enemy you and sit they and let you beat on him! (which most likely would kill him lol) The whole WRT BLP BLP which built it himself cant be done no more, and in 1v1 it seems kai is slower to gain and in groups, its impossible unless your the on being hit.. then its just YOUR DEAD unless your artied out of the teeth!! As Earth batter does close to 2k a hit to monks... not to mention scythes and the lol vivisect...

Think the argument is, Kai should be able to be gained at YOU hitting people if kai trance is up and not just your enemies hitting you!! ...

Serrice

IDK, that's not that big of a deal. Just go pick someone who won't do a lot of damage to you to prekai up. Sentinels do piddly damage with their slash stabs for example, even to Tekura level audit. If you have another Tekura user, you can just have then do the usual wrt blp blp combo. Templars, Syssin -- just do unenvenomed dstabs and dsks. Just find what attack doesn't hurt a lot and have them use that.

Also, technically, from the wording of Kai Trance, ALL attacks done by enemies against ANYONE ELSE in the room should generate kai. I just haven't tested it, but I think Haven did. I think it's half of what you'd get if they were attacking you.

Stathan

I was testing with Haven.

As long as the person is enemied you generate kai. Half the total amount if you aren't primary target. And the Kai Combo still works, but only if you have another monk helping, and it's slt blp blp. Although, unless it's changed you can get a Templar or Sentinel to spam impale at you while standing and it will generate Kai.

Ishin

Amazing what a little testing will reveal.

Stathan

Yeah well, I'm sorry for going off like I did about Kaido. It's hard to tell if that is the problem or not when you tend to die before you realize if you've been gaining Kai or not.

However after testing and finding that Kai is still manageable it drops the issue to Monk Audit which I'm not sure can honestly be changed to much. And I don't even know if BDB and EVB can be used outside of PK.



Edit: Just tested it with dhuriv impale and do not build Kai.

Toz

Dhuriv impale not giving kai is a longstanding bug.

Stathan

So battlefury impale should give Kai then?

Toz

Should. Carni impale does.

Irruel

Stathan said:

And I don't even know if BDB and EVB can be used outside of PK.

Edit: Just tested it with dhuriv impale and do not build Kai.

EVB can - it adjusts the dodge part of your audit.
BDB I don't remember. An easy test though, just pick a mid-weight mob (Salma guards are a good test subject) and let them hit you for a while. I intended to do this test when I picked up monk recently (lesson sale) but I haven't class switched back since I learned it (what a waste of lessons, what an idiot )

Dhuriv impale doesn't, but gorge does and we can do it over and over. Just let the sentinel impale you, but don't writhe.... (j/k)

Dhuriv combo stathan blind disarm may be the least intrusive combo for kai generation. Shaman would need some testing but there should be -something- that works without hurting too much. I'm thinking naturaltide release+store would be a fast generator.

I'm not sure what lycans can do that won't hurt. Maybe one of the shapeshifting attacks like swipe or pounce.

Syssin could just dstab without a venom, right?

If you're afflicted with paranoia, do you generate kai from hitting yourself?

Angwe

Moirean

Stathan said:

The problem is that in a group fight, where you are actually likely to see monks, they are focus fired for the reasonings of how effective Kaido -used- to be in my opinion.

Monks aren't being focused because of Kaido. They are being focused because of BBT. They are being focused because 3 monks hitting someone is a TON of damage and resto-broken limbs in one round. You are picked first because you are the most squishy of the monks. In general, if you are picked first it's because you're squishy - and that's not even from your class. That's just because you are not notably artifacted.

Stathan said:

With conservation and boost you can effectively use Kai 1v1. In a group a monk will die to fast to make use of their built up kai.

And? A Carnifex is never going to capitalize off stolen soul in a team fight. Team fights are their own beast.

Stathan said:

Unless we started being real cheap and I'm not going into details but I really don't feel like getting monks nerfed again for using a skill in excess.

Unlike Carnifex, you can build up kai beforehand. This has been done for YEARS, and you're not going to nerf your class by pre-kaiing. You ARE hurting your team by not doing it. I understand worrying about exploiting something, but monks have been around for so long with so few changes, that pretty much every "trick" for them is well known. Ask your teammates if something is legit - things like deliverance and pre-kai are totally fine and are common practices in group PK.

Stathan

I'm very aware of my position on the priority list as well as the reason. Even if @Ezalor just does it to make me feel like a man. However, saying that I'm the squishiest monk is a misnomer. Generally speaking I am the only monk. There is the rare occasion that Conner and Val run Daru but they don't have Kai to worry about.

I don't know enough about Carnifex to even remotely begin to comment on soul usage, but as far as pre-kaiing I'm currently looking at valid combos to try and help more. I've also worked on a few other avenues to help but I know that in a group (lesser, raid, etc) I'm not living long enough to worry about pre-kai unless the first thing I do is banish someone as soon as they walk in, or start deliverance when the group hits mindnet.

I am still going to worry about nerfs to monk skills given it's the class I main so I'm not likely to spam to much kai anything. I got into a fight with @Ezalor and attempted something that resulted in banish getting nerfed. Wasn't my intention to troll him, and we talked about that, but the result was a nerf.

However, I do appreciate the comparisons you listed as it gives me more math to work on for my lesser offense.