Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 3.7K All Categories
- 3K The Midnight Age
- 757 Announce posts
- 125 Newbies
- 6 Class Guides
- 804 Harpy's Head Tavern
- 57 Echo Canyon
- 310 Self-Affirmations
- 163 Town Crier
- 135 The Exchange
- 167 Sparring Grounds
- Combat Guides
- 30 Combat Logs
- 188 Idea Box
- 9 Classleads
- 581 Roleplay Logs
- 107 Aetolia Development
- 5 The Void
- 744 Miscellaneous
- 9 Announcements
- 417 OOC Chat
- 217 Tech Talk
- 47 Scripts
Looking for more active discussion? Join our Discord at https://discord.gg/x2s7fY6
What do you think of the gender binary?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
This was sort of an oddity for me, because at the time I had a very binary understanding of sexuality as well, either you liked men or women, and there wasn't much room for an in-between in my head. At the time I was self-identifying as a lesbian, had no interest in men, and didn't understand how there could be shades of gray in between.
I have a boyfriend now, and throughout the course of my adult life, have begun to understand that there are no absolutes in these things. If I could take a moment to discuss absolutes-- I am currently getting my masters in Applied Mathematics. Math, for me, isn't about crunching numbers or solving equations, it's about logically deconstructing something and finding an absolute truth to a statement. Logic statements like P->Q ... etc.
It was when I started to study mathematics and relearn the way I think about information, that I began to realize logical flaws (fallacies) in my understandings of both sexuality and gender, and on a larger scale, society's definitions on these things.
I recently watched a TED talk on this issue, which I thought did a good job of discussing this very topic. Figure I'll post it as well.
@Mephistoles This is the sentence that was you shifting responsibility on folks. I already provided links on why binarism is linked to white supremacy and colonialism, so the notion that I have more work to do is false. I can do more work, or I can do less work and delete all my posts. I can do whatever I want, and so can you. Only you can decide if you're convinced or not, and I can't do anything to force that hand. If you want to agree or disagree, I have no say despite whatever amount of work I do.
Suggesting that you're willing to shift opinions based on a solid argument ignores the fact that nobody is ever obligated to change their opinion despite what they hear. Why do you think people hold so many misinformed opinions and beliefs despite evidence to the contrary? If your response is that I have something else to do, you're mistaken because (again) I don't have to do anything for you. Maybe you think you're "above" that, and if you are I'm ready to build a church and start worship because you transcended human existence.
Only you can decide if you agree or not. I could put forth the most eloquent explanations or a flaming bag of poop as my argument and regardless of how factual it may or may not be, you still have 100% agency in deciding if you agree. Once more: I can't do anything to change your mind, and I don't have to keep trying endlessly to shift it because if you don't want to change your opinion then you won't.
It would be very noble if your beliefs were always ready to shift based on new information, but your beliefs will only shift if you think the new information is useful, correct, and so on. If you decide it's not these things- even if it is true in someone else's life- then it's not useful to anyone to waste their breath on talking with you on that topic. Again, truths are subjective and contextual. There is not The One True Truth of Truthiness that everyone will immediately accept because damn, that One True Truth of Truthiness is just so perfectly articulated and explained. Maybe this isn't true in your life because you aren't on the losing end of settler colonialism, who knows?
tl;dr I don't have to do shit even though you directly used that word. How you gonna say you didn't obligate someone?
edit2add tl;dr #2: I already did the work I felt like I have to do, and that's why I stepped out of the conversation. That's part of why this rubbed me the wrong way because only I can decide what I have to do.
JSYK she/her pronouns!
I think that this is getting off topic and getting into weird passive/aggressive grounds with a debate on if someone will change their minds after asking for more information and a clear, information-backed case to consider.
Edit: And the argument of "only you can decide if you'll change so whatever I say is pointless" is a cop out that completely deters discussing the topic at all, or furthering the sharing of ideas, views, and knowledge for communal progress.
@Mephistoles This is the sentence that was you shifting responsibility on folks. 1. I already provided links on why binarism is linked to white supremacy and colonialism, so the notion that I have more work to do is false. I can do more work, or I can do less work and delete all my posts. I can do whatever I want, and so can you. Only you can decide if you're convinced or not, and I can't do anything to force that hand. If you want to agree or disagree, I have no say despite whatever amount of work I do.
2. Suggesting that you're willing to shift opinions based on a solid argument ignores the fact that nobody is ever obligated to change their opinion despite what they hear. Why do you think people hold so many misinformed opinions and beliefs despite evidence to the contrary? If your response is that I have something else to do, you're mistaken because (again) I don't have to do anything for you. 3. Maybe you think you're "above" that, and if you are I'm ready to build a church and start worship because you transcended human existence.
1. These were refuted by a couple of people who brought up legitimate and logical reasoning. So far you haven't even bothered to respond to them that I've seen, so it just seems to 'us'(I use the term loosely to refer to the spectators and those who refuted your claim) that you're stating your opinion and aren't willing to admit that you could be wrong or misinformed yourself.
2. This is, in fact, @Mephistoles acting like an adult and saying that if you provided a legitimate reason and legitimate logic to back it, he would be willing to admit he was wrong and possibly even willing to change his own beliefs.
3. This part somewhat offends me, because thus far I've been reading contentedly and listening to both sides of the argument, myself wondering if perhaps I'm not wrong and the odd man out for being so black-and-white on things. As I said to you before, to me, people are either male, or female, and I mean that as in how I perceive you. What I'm starting to see when you start saying things like 'I'm not required to give proof for my claim.' and the rest, is you acting like -you- are above -us-. In which case, perhaps it is we who should be getting ready to build a church and start worship, because -you- have transcended human existence.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
JSYK she/her pronouns!
That's why I think it's fair to not feel obligated to provide all the arguments. When that work is put squarely on the shoulders of those most impacted by it, it is a neverending battle. Non-binary trans people can't convince anyone to respect them with arguments because (again) people can still chose to interpret non-binary people however they want. People all the time might intellectually "get" it, but it also doesn't mean it will integrated into how they treat people. If I am responsible for making someone treat me well (which I'm not because I deserve respect regardless of if I devote my time and energies to changing people's thoughts) then that's victim blaming. Essentially, this has 0% to do with belief systems. I couldn't care less if someone respects or acknowledges trans identities, so long as they can fake it and treat me with dignity through our encounters.
JSYK she/her pronouns!
I find it a bit frustrating that this effort is getting side-lined in what feel to me to be double standards. So far what I have read is:
- We are ignorant and ill-informed if we do not agree with you or share your experience. Apparently this is being falsely equated to also not respecting you as a person or respecting your experience.
- We need to agree with you and we should go do our research on our own until we do. We need to find evidence that has enough impact or meaning to us to have us reconsider our viewpoints so that they align with yours, though yours are not fully expressed beyond a handful of statements and references that get shut down with how exhausting it is.
If Ishin sees gender as a black and white thing, that does not NEED to put trans people into a precarious place - it does not impact is view of them as a human being worthy of the respect and consideration he gives to anyone else.
It's a really complex thing that will take some time for society to adjust to and to understand - like sexuality, like ethnicity, and so on.
Not empathizing/not understanding does not equal not respecting another person as a person.
Being outside of the perceived societal norm DOES come with exhausting work of having to educate and be patient (to a point) and explain en repeat, it is the proverbial equivelant of paving a new road - first the weeds need to be cleared out so there's a clearer view, rocks unearthed, and then the ground leveled so that the new can be built. The uninformed masses cannot do this work blindly, that is unreasonable and ineffective to what the work demands/requires.
As far as not caring if someone respects or acknowledges trans identities, and want them to 'fake' it and allow you to live with what is then fake 'dignity'...if you don't care enough to try to convince us, why should we care enough to even bother trying to see your side of things? It's like, 'If you don't care, why should we?'
Like...maybe this is straw-man, or maybe it's unrelated, but I feel almost like I should point to the Civil Rights movement and then say something like 'I rest my case.'
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
What I will say is that from reading over this thread, you really come off as condescending and standoffish. You gave a vague sort of argument in the beginning that mostly just seemed like opinions, and then you wrote three or four essays after that could really be wrapped up in, "You're going to disagree with me, and I'm tired of explaining myself."
Except that, man. You really put a lot of effort into saying that. Lots of big words and well composed sentences and such, and sometimes I even had to read a paragraph twice to realize you didn't actually -say- anything different.
"I don't owe you shit, go convince yourself," is about as productive as putting your face on the sidewalk and running as fast as you can.
Just saying. Carry on, fellers!
I like think no one here would ever deny that Genders can either be looked at from a scientific, formulated mindset, or from a philosophic
mindset. Neither are wrong, and it is a case-by-case. I've known many Transgenders; the first, Ally, who prefer to be She, HOWEVER, for the sake of professionality and general confidence in HER choice, can understand when people refer to Her as HIM. It is not a disrespect to her decision, and nor should it reflect on one person or another's personality badly. If I were to place myself in the (sometimes difficult) shoes of a Transgendered-turned-He, I would hope to be treated like a Person, and this includes no special treatment or accommodations. We are humans, in the end. There's a difference between getting irrationally offended at one person for a mistake, and expecting an entire community to meet your standards of morals...
Tl;dr, No one should be treated with extra-care or walk on eggshells on this subject over something that seems to be as personal a decision as what underwear you chose for the day, as its not our job to get the wedgie out, and unfair to punish about _obvious_ unintentional misconceptions.
Personally, I have a mad level of respect for anyone who doesn't fit into the stereotypical gender binary, which includes transgenders, third genders, homosexuals, etc (tbh, I don't know enough to know the various distinctions). The kind of lives they lead are so much more difficult than people who fit in nicely to social norms that it's not even funny or fair. They're playing life on a much higher difficulty level, and not by choice.
Some people (typically those who fit into normative standards) say it's a matter of choice, but I don't buy it. It makes no sense to continue to insist being different, especially because of the crazy levels of opposition that comes as a consequence. It would be so much 'easier' to fit in and not be judged/hated, etc., that I don't see how a person who says they are gay, lesbian or transgendered aren't so because they literally haven't a choice.
For this reason, I don't even see where it falls to gender-normative people to decide what is or isn't. It's certainly fine to form a personal opinion - we are all entitled to our opinions - but if someone says they don't feel X gender even though they are X sex, I'd give them the benefit of doubt. I'm an outsider, what should my opinion matter at all, especially when they are the ones facing judgement and oppression on a daily basis?
Any 'discussion' that we gender-normative people are having regarding this issue is an incredibly privileged one, and I don't believe it's our place to take any kind of a strong stance on it, and definitely not an uncharitable one that offers no benefit of doubt. They shouldn't have to convince us.
No one -ever- holds the right to classify another person, an individual, save for the person themself. There is no standard, for we are individuals, given the right in our own creation to be exactly what we desire to be.
Just as it would be offensive for me to classify someone by race, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, philosophical preference, favorite monopoly piece, or any "binary" "multi-line code" "generalization" "classification" when it comes down to it, no one has the right to make that call save for the person, and to inquire, to pressure, to try and fit them into a social, psychological, metaphysical, physical, gas, solid, or liquid is absolutely asinine.
There is one class you are permitted to put people in, and that is "an individual"
So before I break out a pitchfork and torch, I want to remind everyone that this very discussion infringes on years of freedoms that we as a people have fought for, will fight for, and currently fight for. So before anyone carries this on further, I want you just to look yourself in the mirror, and be proud of being a healthy, individual. Regardless of your beliefs, preferences, and faiths.
Next, when you look at someone else who you might feel different, remember in your head a time you were different, and think twice before passing that "classification" on who they are.
The only thing she needed to convince us of is whether reincarnation artifacts should allow for easy gender changes/whether we should have a third gender in-game. And that, while related the current discussion, is a decision that needs to be made independently with separate considerations. For instance, we have guns IRL - that doesn't mean we should have guns coded in-game as well.
I guess there's also the bit about discussing anthropology, colonialism, imperialism, patriarchy, etc. And 'by right', since Samp raised it, she should support those claims with further evidence. I think it's completely well within anyone's rights to press for that. But I'm thinking - even if there aren't any historical cultures that aren't grounded in patriarchy - does that answer the wider question? Or is it more of a 'well technically, you're wrong' sort of small victory. Even historical records are contestable (were they biased and written by men?), so even there I don't think it's possible for us to find absolute truth.
I suppose that there's 'being right', and there is 'being a human being'. My personal take is that since no one actually knows what's 'right' or 'wrong' in this matter (or if there is even a right or wrong), I'm personally willing not to press too hard if Samp's feeling too tired to continue. We can always continue without her, sharing our own experiences with one another, and trying to figure it out on our own. Maybe someone else will chime in, and we get to learn more.
I'm still rather puzzled why colonialism, imperialism, or white supremacy have anything to do with gender binary. But, if there aren't really any objectively true facts about it, that's probably not entirely surprising.
@Areka, and @Ishin, I think I like you guys.
When it comes to choices/beliefs/opinions on gender, as this topic is primarily on, I do believe it warrants respect and consideration. That's something that shouldn't be regarded in any other way. What I'm speaking on is entirely removed, and more whether a person should even be listened to if they opt to live on a world not based in reality, whatever the topic.
This entire post is a big, steamy pile of straw man. The evidence people were requesting had absolutely no bearing or ramifications on your personal identity. Unless your personal identity is entirely wrapped up in your idea that the gender-binary is a result of colonialism and imperialism that you have -that- argument with people 24/7/365.
-THAT- is what was being requested and called for. Mephistoles never once made any comments about trans people, or the legitimacy of their identity. He replied to your vague, flippant argument early on that declared the gender binary was a result of colonialism and imperialism. You called him ill informed, he succinctly disputed that presumptive claim, and then insisted that you'll have to bring a better argument if you expect anyone to be convinced that what you are stating is fact.
That is how philosophical arguments work. You provide evidence, and if it is actually compelling, you will sway people to your argument. Similarly, if you make wild claims -without- evidence, expect to be dismissed.
EDIT: I had randomly typed "Even befo" at the top. not sure what happened there.
Also, sorry for just jumping into the thread without reading the entire last bit about colonialism/imperialism and all that stuff.
As far as gender binary itself is concerned, I found myself wondering recently if it's literally a matter of choice - and I don't mean that there isn't something fundamental about people, because I know people who were born with male parts that identified as a woman, and vice versa. The whole subject makes my head spin, honestly, 'cause there's so many different angles to come at it from, be it social construct, genetics, simple physicality, chemical science, neuro science, somatic science, myriad religious beliefs, et cetera et cetera, and everyone has differing opinions on it.
Then, as we've seen here, there's the applicable and social implications of it. I live in Central Virginia right now, way out in the country, but it's a college town, too, so you get that random infusion of culture that comes with a university smack dab in the middle of your quaint Southern town. @Ishin can probably say more about it, but I know that at least here, there's an already-constructed idea of how a man should behave and how a woman should behave embedded in the general culture.
Hell, there's some shit happening with the general idea of how men and women should behave anyway, but that's a WHOLE DIFFERENT topic.
return
end
the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine
open hand or closed fist would be fine
blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine
For example, back when I was in high school, I was told by one parent that I'd basically get disowned if I dated a black girl. That was probably 14 years ago or so. Times change, and so do people, and so does their take on things. These days, my next to youngest sister dates a black guy, and that same parent is okay with it. So am I, he's a pretty cool dude. That same parent loves my girlfriend, who is half Mexican, to death.
I think that with a lot of things, people just need to realize that demanding something and expecting it now just isn't feasible. It can take days, weeks, years, or even decades. I mean, the push for equality started how long ago, and it still isn't even recognized in some places. Just food for thought.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
I can only imagine the internal havoc that would cause to be a transgendered ftm that got pregnant right before a final surgical alteration. Poor guy
We are always making a value judgment when we decide which characteristics to value over others in assigning sex to an individual. It is worth noting that most folks will never know for sure what sex chromosomes they possess, because it's not something doctors check unless there is a specific reason to (this frequently occurs when folks are having trouble conceiving). I propose that in light of that, it is more important to listen to others when they tell you what their gender is rather than pick and choose which characteristics you find most salient in categorizing another person.
For example, if a cis woman needs to undergo a hysterectomy, it is not my place to say, "well, I know that you identify as a woman, but biologically speaking, you do not have a uterus, so you are a male now." Or for a more interesting, pop culture example, I would not tell Varys from Game of Thrones that he is no longer male because he is a eunuch.
The checklists we use to categorize people by sex are just tools to help us try to understand a complex idea in simple terms. They by no means define reality, only attempt, but fail to fully describe it. Instead, let's respect people's identities and not coerce them into inadequate categories based on outdated ideas about sex and gender.
Also, while all of these other losers were trying to bring quality, Amazon is like "look guys, a 3d phone" and people actually want to buy it. Wtf?