Yet Another Shopkeeping Thread

Erzsebet

I don't think I've had a commission clock in at less than 30k an item of pure profit in a long time--even if we're counting gems at their shop worth. Though I've not been taking commissions lately, or crafting at all on my crafters. So there's that.

Remember the days of mage crystal and obsidian though. Still do things like that when I craft on Kiralla.

Rashar

Am I the only one who got crafting skills just for the RP of it?

I don't sell any of my stuff, heh. Every single piece of jewelry I have made has been for one person specifically, whether it be a friend or for a wedding or whatever. (Exception being the mass produced rings designs Elwyn gave me to enchant for the Order shop)

Same with woodcarving.

Toz

Rashar said:

Am I the only one who got crafting skills just for the RP of it?

I don't sell any of my stuff, heh. Every single piece of jewelry I have made has been for one person specifically, whether it be a friend or for a wedding or whatever. (Exception being the mass produced rings designs Elwyn gave me to enchant for the Order shop)

Same with woodcarving.

Well, given that you're in the shopkeeping thread, I'd imagine most people discussing things here are interested in selling stuff. Through...shops!

Rashar

Hmph.

Jensen

I picked up cooking and brewing exclusively for RP. Jewelcrafting initially was for RP as I needed something to put severed heads in. The rest are supplemental

Erzsebet

I picked tailoring up on Kira to help with org shops, and jewelcrafting on Erz 'cause shinies. And tailoring on Erz 'cause Alex was tired of me making her craft tons of things for me, for the house shop. >.> All in their RP though, and I use them extensively for personal RP stuff.

Moirean

I had my tradeskills long before I knew how the whole emoting and RP scene stuff worked. I bought them to make stuff to sell, and I find it a bit frustrating that a viewpoint like that is considered naive and misguided these days - tradeskills should be able to turn a profit or they should be rebranded because, to a new player, that's what they are advertised as. Back when I first got tailoring, I was able to make a decent amount of money with it, but over time average prices have really dropped while the amount of choice has increased dramatically. If I were new to Aet now and picking up a tradeskill I'd be pretty frustrated to discover how ineffective merchantry is here, but maybe I'm in a minority. I like playing the economic aspect of things in games I play.

Minarael

Maybe Aetolia is different, but in Imperian, shopkeeping took a -long- time to recoup the initial investment for, same with tradeskills. It takes a lot of in-game gold to recover the initial 100 credit fee plus the credits to learn to Transcendent. Shops never sell cheap. If you are buying casks then that just adds on to the initial cost.

If you are looking to turn a profit, shopkeeping has -never- been the way to go. If we want to make shopkeeping an actual viable avenue, shops would have to become much more prevalent and a lot more inexpensive. This makes it more about quality, allows more crafters to get a way to get their goods to market (not everyone likes hawking commissions), and reduces the initial investment so profit can actually be made in a reasonable amount of time. But, yanno, I've been yelling that from the mountaintops for 10 years. I doubt that's changing anytime soon.

Also, Moirean, you were essentially coming after the Syssin shop. I'm going to say this again because I think it was missed. We don't stock things lower than cost. Everything is priced above cost. Just not a very large increase since the mandate was 'cheap goods for the syssin before profit'. Lots of stuff gets donated, including comms and healing supplies. So stuff that's donated is pure profit.

Teani

Erzsebet said:

I don't think I've had a commission clock in at less than 30k an item of pure profit in a long time--even if we're counting gems at their shop worth. Though I've not been taking commissions lately, or crafting at all on my crafters. So there's that.

This makes me think I should up my prices. Do people really pay this much for commissioned work in general? My designs are generally very appreciated and I usually don't charge more than what people might think it's worth to them (so anything between 2-10k depending on the person and comms involved).

Moirean

- I was not coming after the Syssin shop. I was using them as an example.

- Even if stuff is donated, it's silly to price it below cost (again, as an example, 7g an arrow when the cheapest cheapest cheapest it costs to craft them is 8-9g each), as everyone else is going to be pricing them far higher. Undercut, sure, but why tank the market? People are silly and WILL try to undercut that price without doing the math for production cost, even if it is losing them money, whereas pricing it just below the common price means you still beat the competition, make more profit (why not maximize your profit margin?) AND help keep a healthier market in the long run (ie what if you want to keep stocking item x even if you don't have comms donated for it?).

- Regarding the Syssin shop (again, I was only using it as an example, as it's the first shop that pinged up on directory) I'm not talking about stuff sold on guild-only shelves. That's absolutely a different story. I can't even see those shelves. I'm talking about stuff sold to the general public. If you guys are trying to provide cheap cheap stuff for your guild, maybe you are pricing it on the wrong shelves, because the dirt cheap prices are showing up to a non-member on just basic wares.

- Craft skills can and do turn a profit. Again, I picked up crafting to make a profit and I definitely used to make a ton more with it. I sold clothing at 500-1500 a piece and they sold very well. The average price for everything has crept down a ton, whereas comm prices have gone up since the war system has been shut down and we've lost several of the wilderness comm markets.

- Shops used to have a much better turnaround. People have gotten better about keeping them and there's a higher demand for them these days.

- Regarding market saturation and higher shop demand: time, in general is one factor as players have, as a whole, slowly gathered more craft skills so there are a lot more people putting stuff out there to buy. Multiclass and mercantile skills are also a huge factor - before, only mages could make enchantments. Only druids and sentinels could pick plants. Etc etc. Now, I can cover venoms, enchants, herbs, slices, concoctions, and get Toz to forge armor/weapons, plus all of the crafting stuff. As much as I love my shop being a walmart, it does mean that it's really a buyer's market, as it's pretty easy and common to be able to stock everything so prices end up just being a tiny hair above production cost (which is why stuff being sold below that is so rough, as we're all selling stuff for dirt cheap as-is).

Weirdly enough, gold's easier than ever to get with bashing now, so it's not like people can't afford to splash out 1000-2000 gold for a shirt. They just aren't used to spending that much, so they'll balk at it, which really is a bit lame if you think about it. That's our creative work being sold off for silly cheap prices. Maybe I'll start a luxury clothing line. Mail people some champagne when they buy fancy stuffs.

Eleanor

I recall your tailoring always being priced way more than everyone else's, moirean, and it always seemed fine to me, it was just "designer" stuff and that's why it was so expensive.

Your fingerless gloves were my favourites so I bought them even though they ate a pretty big hole in my noobfunds.

Daskalos

My personal views, as someone who owns a multitude of shops. I follow the Wal-Mart theory, which is that you sell enough bulk you can make edge profit. You also offer consumables at a loss so that people come in and buy the things you have a huge markup on. I make anywhere from a million to 2 million from my Delos shop annually. My Enorian shop makes about 100k, and my Duiran shop makes basically the taxes and occasionally will sell big. I make most of my money selling rare items -- things I get from chests, from giftbags. Chalices, Chocolates, Bullseyes, Research Tokens. Things that cost me only -time-. And to get people to my shop, I sell other things at below cost. I was selling arrows at 3 gold per. I maxed out most of my commodity cache off of chests. These things cost me nothing. I'm making profit, and money, because all I want is gold and it's far easier to sell -things- than credits on market. At present I've got over 60 voxes for sale, slightly above current market. The key is patience -- they'll sell, in time, and soon, you won't be able to get more.

It's a supply and demand situation. It's also the classic IRE model of time vs money. I'd rather spend some of my IRL money than invest the time to harvest enough to refill a cask for a thousand. So I'll go buy the herbs from shops (yay, they make money) then sell the refills at a loss in my shop to get them in, so that when someone says 'man, I want that crocodile pet' they'll remember 'Hey, Dask has one in his shop'.

Rashar

Shh. You're still in timeout, Dask.

That minor gift prize was -MINE-.

Moirean

That's like....thousands of cryptic chests. That stuff isn't coming from nothing, it's coming from external credit purchases, but I see what you mean. I bet the admin didn't think they'd be bought in such huge numbers when they added the comm drops in, but if that many are being bought and that many comms are being introduced out of nothing, that's a huge effect on the market. It's also why things like hearts and bullseyes and etc are basically junk items now.

It's a bit frustrating. I make on average between 20-60k a day, excluding random chest/giftbag stuff, but that's all designs and tradeskill stuff. I can't afford to buy a ton of credits RL, and my shop is one of my big ways to make money but how can shopkeepers compete with comms coming out of nowhere? I camp the comm shops and buy comms when they drop low and use crafting artis to produce double amounts - that used to be how you got an edge on competition. If cryptic chests are really providing people with that many comms, that's just not feasible to compete with.

Eleanor

It's kind of amusing, because Walmart is a big evil conglomerate that's wringing the life out of small enterprise in real life, with no care for anything but their own corporate gain.

And Daskalos is saying he's our Walmart here in Aetolia!

Ishin

Eleanor said:

It's kind of amusing, because Walmart is a big evil conglomerate that's wringing the life out of small enterprise in real life, with no care for anything but their own corporate gain.

And Daskalos is saying he's our Walmart here in Aetolia!

Who'd'a thunk it.

Areka

I don't think 1000-2000 for a shirt would be reasonable as a standard in the current market. Part of that discussion needs to incorporate average earning for each level grouping (where while it isn't dire, I remember emptying my pockets to restock curatives way back when, up until around level 80) as well as the associated costs with varying classes to get started/maintain.

Eesh, 20-60k a day? Here I was all proud of my forging sales but damn. Mine average out to 11k a day (however I do acknowledge that I don't stock the day-to-day needs so they're more for larger, periodic purchases).

Edit: And when Cryptic Chests have given me comms, it's usually less than 50 total comms split between 5-6 types, usually in bundles of 7-11. Daskalos is, as ever, an outlier.

Moirean

Well those numbers are starting to go down, thanks to directories. Before, having tons of stock meant people would think of your shop first and wouldn't bother running all over so you could price some stuff higher, but now it's really really easy to compare prices, so cheap is king.

Sessizlik

Your numbers are just scary. I've made 17550 gold in 6 ing months, not counting the giftbag stuff I've sold. Perhaps I should try to save up for Another Craft and expand from the food... Or perhaps my prices are too low, but I doubt that.

Moirean

Well, that's just me eyeballing stuff. Now I wanna sit and write a script to track it all....

Erzsebet

Teani said:

Erzsebet said:

I don't think I've had a commission clock in at less than 30k an item of pure profit in a long time--even if we're counting gems at their shop worth. Though I've not been taking commissions lately, or crafting at all on my crafters. So there's that.

This makes me think I should up my prices. Do people really pay this much for commissioned work in general? My designs are generally very appreciated and I usually don't charge more than what people might think it's worth to them (so anything between 2-10k depending on the person and comms involved).

The key, as with most negotiations is not to state a number first. The second you lay down a figure, they'll cite it as being too high and-or you'll lock yourself in at a price that's too low. You put that on them and--especially in the instance of people who use your services extensively--or who plan to, they'll pay quite a bit. I got paid 30 -credits- for a wedding dress/veil/stockings/slippers/accent jewelry set. Even if we factored in all the citrine and diamond I used in them, it's still a ridiculous amount of profit. And then her would-be-husband turned around and paid me like 150k for the engagement/wedding band--which is 142k profit IF I paid for the shiny things, and I didn't. You can make hella bank on them. Especially if you make them get you the comms. Which is what I do when it's more than basic cachables/jewels/metals. Sometimes I only get 10-20k or so. It just depends. But it's hella easy to make money at it, to the extent where I only really take the commissions I feel inspired for, or feel like doing for assorted other IC reasons because I don't really need the business.

I sell most of my clothes in-shop between 300 and 600 gold, unless they're encrusted with jewels, and they sell for that. The jewel-encrusted ones go for 1000-1500 depending on how many shiny things are in them, and those sell, too.

I go in for Walmart's 'stock almost everything ever' business plan, and their 'all of the variety' plan as well, rather than their 'sell everything cheap' model. I stock everything from hand bells and windchimes to curatives. The bells and chimes don't sell as often as other things, but I have them, and it's a bitch finding another shop that carries them--much less with any kind of variety available.

I've never bought a shop for more than 100 credits. Or FOR 100 credits, for that matter. My currents were 60 and 80. Paid like 250k for one of the House shops. Voltaire had a shop that Kiralla got for around that. I've more than made back all the gold I paid for them initially, and all my tradeskills/talents/craft-related artifacts, too. If everything in my personal Spinesreach shop sells as it is currently priced (and the vast majority of it will, sooner or later) even in its currently (to my opinion) currently understocked state, I will make something to the tune of at least 2 or 3 billion gold in -profit-. I'd have to go math it again, for a more precise number, but I'm fairly confident that I'm actually understating the number rather than accidentally inflating it. Though. My understocked is everyone else's 'youhavewaytoomuchfrickinstuff', I guess.

Not saying it isn't harder to get a shop nowadays, or that they're not overpriced, but the market's easier these days than it was when I first started, because gold's easier to get, so people are more free with it. My best-selling stuff are the superfluous RP items I made to decorate my dragon-hoard-style haven and/or estate with and stocked in my shop at a whim, because I had one extra of each thanks to the crafting boon items.

Demarcus

Erzsebet said:

I've never bought a shop for more than 100 credits. Or FOR 100 credits, for that matter. My currents were 60 and 80. Paid like 250k for one of the House shops. Voltaire had a shop that Kiralla got for around that. I've more than made back all the gold I paid for them initially, and all my tradeskills/talents/craft-related artifacts, too. If everything in my personal Spinesreach shop sells as it is currently priced (and the vast majority of it will, sooner or later) even in its currently (to my opinion) currently understocked state, I will make something to the tune of at least 2 or 3 billion gold in -profit-. I'd have to go math it again, for a more precise number, but I'm fairly confident that I'm actually understating the number rather than accidentally inflating it. Though. My understocked is everyone else's 'youhavewaytoomuchfrickinstuff', I guess.

Billion in profit? What's the limit for items in a shop, something like 500? That's a 4 million gold profit per item if you were fully stocked. Oh, the power of zeroes!

Moirean

I totally wrote a script to track stuff. As I've been feeling, stuff is a bit lower than it used to be.



Let's look at the cache sales in more detail. Herbs feel like they are a selling a lot slower...



Dat elm.

Erzsebet

Demarcus said:

Erzsebet said:

Billion in profit? What's the limit for items in a shop, something like 500? That's a 4 million gold profit per item if you were fully stocked. Oh, the power of zeroes!

All cities I have shops in have 750 as base because of research trees. You're also neglecting to take into account things which take up one slot (casks, kegs) but that hold 60k refills or something ridiculous.

Also consider, into the calculations of what profit is or isn't, that I don't pay for shiny things, and I still price them fairly high, so all of those are purely profit except for like. Base comms. I pay for silver/gold/obsidian/iron/cloth etc but not for ruby/emerald/sapphire/ammolite/etc. Markup on pretty much everything is pretty high.

I -may- be mis-calculating a zero somewhere, I'd have to look at it again. Which, I'm set to do on the 4th or so, which is when I'll be properly re-stocking and all. Either way, a ridiculous amount of profit.

Demarcus

Erzsebet said:

stuff

Could be, I'll leave it to the folks with five shops apiece to do all the fancy mathematics. I'm absolutely terrible at these sorts of things, and lets face it, I suck at Aetolia and shopkeeping is forever beyond the scope of my understanding of the game so I'll take your word for it.

Areka

I have a (wait for iiiit) spreadsheet (aha, surprised you didn't I!) that I use to track all of my shopkeeping stuff from notepads of each year's shop log, my designs and their average/real costs vs sales/profits (some things are tough, like fullplate and figuring out what the threshold price is) as well as average prices of weapons and so on.

Sessizlik

Looking at all of this, with scripts and spreadsheets and stuff, I'm starting to wonder if I don't take shopkeeping serious enough. I have a document with my cooking aliases, along with what ingredients I need to get that are not cacheable. And that's it. Just the other day, I actually wrote down the prices I have on each of those items, cause I kept forgetting. But that's all I do. I read the log, but it's not something I save. I barely check other shops to see what they charge for their food/items.

Erzsebet

I never ever check other shops for their pricing. I stock my stuff at whatever I feel like pricing it, which is mostly a math-dance crossing what people will pay for it with what it costs me to make it and the time turn-around it takes for something to sell.

I have spreadsheets, but mine are for crafting, not for shopkeeping. I shopkeep 'cause it's fun, because I like designing things and having an outlet for easily spreading those things all across the world, and as a tertiary reason because it gives me/the house gold, not because I'm horribly worried about breaking even or fretting about the state of the market.

Damonicus

I price check one shop. then I do this math:

Moirean's shop: Item = x, price for item = Y.
My shop X = Y - (Y/3)

:P

Moirean

Boo hiss evil Damonicus.

I have a lot of crafting scripts. I have a lot of random busywork scripts period. I have them because I'm really quite lazy. The joke floating around is that some people AI PK, while I AI leadership, and it's kinda true. Scripts let you cruise control a lot of stuff (there's no way in heck I'm going to manually type out picking 12k plants a day). It may seem like more work, but once you code the stuff, it's really easy to upkeep. I enter in comms for new brewing patterns when I make them, and just type BREWALL when I wanna restock stuff. I don't have many individual aliases anymore for crafting. In the long run, it saves so much time.