Yet Another Shopkeeping Thread

Areka

By profit I mean real profit (the excess after commodity/ingredient coverage is accounted for). Forging's a pain for that since I end up having to just average it due to how fickle the RNG can be.

Irruel

@haven
It's not cool. Not cool at all.
Oakstone (Achaean Duiran, sort of) used to ban mass salve, and set prices for herbs/elixirs/salves. Forest enemy people that broke the rules.

Sentinels/Druids, pre-Duiran, tried to do something similar here. My char, Irru, almost got outguilded (without class) standing for free trade, and would have if Arafel hadn't agreed with me.

The syssin used to ban certain venoms (including one of the vlock ones) and set prices for stuff.

Cool? Not really.

Been there, done that. It's stupid, it's only fun for the people making lots of gold or benefiting in some other way (like being the only class that can vlock, or being able to yank/grab anyone into traps because mass salve barely existed outside of the guild. The odd rogue would get a few vials into the wild, sure.

Ishin

I seem to recall rogues getting hunted to near extinction back then too, @Irruel.

I wonder how that would pan out in current days. Poor @Calipso? Lol?

Eleanor

Zsadist said:

I'd like to revert back to my previous point of one person owning multiple shops. Lets take @Eleanor for example, I know she has 4 shops in Spinesreach.

I usually don't comment on the Significant Glances when people say "Some people own a bunch of shops" and I understand that you're not actually taking a swing at me here, but I feel the urge to point out that two of the ones in Spinesreach are org shops!

I think there is also an issue with market research, though. I mean, I make an effort to keep each of the shops I look after stocked with different things, and I make sure there's at least one type of thing someone would definitely need to buy (field gear, food, enchantments, curatives) as opposed to things that people would just like to buy (jewelry, drinks, Yet Another Ballgown). There's shops though that have had the same wares quietly for what seems like an eternity, or have barely anything on the shelves, and I'd really like to see their numbers on their sales. I think I'm going off on a tangent.

The problem with the underground this and mafia cartel that is, I would bet good money that a lot of the people with shops are the kind of people who just want to bumble along quietly and do their crafting. Which means that the instant some kind of interesting thing like that was enacted, at least one person would feel they were being harrassed for enjoying their game in their own way, and I think that's not a place we want to go.

Zsadist

Eleanor said:

Zsadist said:

I'd like to revert back to my previous point of one person owning multiple shops. Lets take @Eleanor for example, I know she has 4 shops in Spinesreach.

I usually don't comment on the Significant Glances when people say "Some people own a bunch of shops" and I understand that you're not actually taking a swing at me here, but I feel the urge to point out that two of the ones in Spinesreach are org shops!

I think there is also an issue with market research, though. I mean, I make an effort to keep each of the shops I look after stocked with different things, and I make sure there's at least one type of thing someone would definitely need to buy (field gear, food, enchantments, curatives) as opposed to things that people would just like to buy (jewelry, drinks, Yet Another Ballgown). There's shops though that have had the same wares quietly for what seems like an eternity, or have barely anything on the shelves, and I'd really like to see their numbers on their sales. I think I'm going off on a tangent.

The problem with the underground this and mafia cartel that is, I would bet good money that a lot of the people with shops are the kind of people who just want to bumble along quietly and do their crafting. Which means that the instant some kind of interesting thing like that was enacted, at least one person would feel they were being harrassed for enjoying their game in their own way, and I think that's not a place we want to go.

No @Eleanor, I was not attacking you, and I apologize if you thought I was. I just used you as an example as you're the one that stands out the most when I'm shop searching in Spinesreach, and notably, the one I remember the most. (Sorry, I have bad memory, if the name doesn't stick I don't remember. So +1 for you cause I remembered you!) I'm sure I could find more if I was able to venture in Enorian/Duiran. Also, I know you are mainly a crafter, so you have a wide variety of stuff to sell, but I also did not know that 2 were org shops.

That being said, I am not saying that there needs to be a mafia cartel of "Set your prices this way." merely saying that that is how prices work when it comes to undercutting to the point of it being -BELOW- what you spent to make. I'm obviously not going to sell an elegant vial of rain (Zsadist™) for 40 gold, if someone is selling a wooden vial in the shape of a dragon (Zsadist™) for 25 gold in one of their 2 or 3 shops. Of course, they could do the same in a single shop, but you have more flexibility of prices with multiple shops.

Erzsebet

Personally, while I think cities should enforce limits to stop shops from being stocked with only 20 things at overpriced prices for forever, (and each city has at least one of these, really,) I also don't really think it's anyone else's business what is being stocked or where or at how much. If I wanna ONLY sell Yet Another Ballgown (x20) in my shop--presumably it's making me money, or I'd quit and stock something else. Or I'm an idiot and won't be able to pay my taxes after so long of failing to profit at it.

I do try to keep some variety in my shops personally, and for the most part, beyond curatives, I try to avoid stocking the same things in multiple shops in the same cities. That said, I don't feel that imposing limits on variety within a specific shop is the way to go. As long as I have at least a substantial percentage of the base stockroom space stocked, and I'm paying my taxes, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave me to my own devices therein.

My rage, is the unrelated surge of idiocy and borderline ooc nonsense that appears to have risen in Aetolia of late.

ETA: And-or the BLATANT ooc nonsense. Come at me bro? Really? Eesh.

Minarael

The Syssin shop, which seems to be the thing which initiated the rage, is stocked with the following things in mind -

- Its primary function is stocking goods for the syssin at a really good price, profit is a secondary consideration.
- Anything stocked that we have to purchase commodities for -is- stocked at a profit, albeit a small one.
- Anything stocked that's donated is sold at a close, but lower rate than the competition. See above.

Shops are not required to be run at any particular market rate, they are not required to operate at a profit, nor is there a rule about not undercutting (which actually Moirean's shop was pretty much doing to everyone else until the Syssin shop undercut her in some areas). The syssin shop -is- operating at a profit, incidentally. Nearly everything in it is donated. I am doing most of the donating. A lot of people run shops for RP reasons, if I were to purchase a shop for my private use, for example, I'd be thinking of it as an investment that would allow me to have a place to stock my own designs. It would be RP, not profit, that I'd be investing in.

There are many, many easier/faster/less tedious ways to make money in Aetolia.

Edit - My rage is that people still argue shops shop be a limited thing, despite all the ranting here. The limited shop creates solid economy argument is clearly nonsense. So can we just bypass that and open up more shops already, to allow an expansion of custom crafted goods and make it not be a crazy challenging process to acquire one. The last shop in Spines went for crazy amounts of money.

Also rage that my desire to play has dramatically waned again. That I've had to deal enough backbiting (not directed at me), drama, nonsense, and childish behavior that it's -hard- for me to want to RP with people, because I just don't wanna get drug into any nonsense. I feel like I should be screening people OOC before I interact with them. I play other text games. This is not an issue there. People act like adults. Why can't IRE players act like adults? Blech.

Rashar

We just changed that in Enorian, actually. To be honest, and while I can see both side of it, I think a certain responsibility -does- fall on the City to police this stuff up. Obviously things with shops are they way the Administration wants them, but the cities do enjoy a fair amount of control over things.

I don't feel like it is absurdly restrictive, the way we did it. If you're going to occupy limited real estate within the City, you should be at the very least providing for the city and giving people a reason to -come- to the city, to generate revenue, RP, interaction, attention, what have you.

Furtum

Rashar said:

I don't feel like it is absurdly restrictive, the way we did it. If you're going to occupy limited real estate within the City, you should be at the very least providing for the city and giving people a reason to -come- to the city, to generate revenue, RP, interaction, attention, what have you.

I mean, this is a genuine question from someone who has never had anything to do with this kind of stuff except as the mindless zombie that runs around spamming directory for the cheapest shit, but...

Isn't that a really fine line? How many shops would be empty under too strict of provisions? I'm not saying you guys didn't do it right as it sounds like from your post you have but how did you define those lines?

Just curiosity really, I can't understand how a game where you have unlimited means of gold not to mention legacy gold, and where one can factor in that you can purchase creds with IRL currency and then sell them for gold... how is that even possible to regulate? I'm also not an economics nerd or anything so, that might be part of this curiosity and my excuse for any potentially dumb questions/observations.

Areka

For reference, Enorian's new lines are:

SUBSECTION B: COMMERCIAL LAW

All commercial policies are subject to change by the Chancellor or the
Council. Unless otherwise stated, these policies apply to buildings,
institutions, and individuals within the City.

I. Shopkeepers are required to pay shop tax by the first of Midsummer.
They will be reminded upon this date, and be given one year to
complete payments lest their shop be repossessed. Repossession
may also occur if the shopkeeper is an enemy of the City, is
inactive, or lacks law-protected guest status.

II. It is the shopkeeper's responsibility to ensure that their shop is
well stocked.

- The shopkeep maintains at least 15 different items, available to
the city at large and in addition to herbs, concoctions, casks,
venoms and inks.*
*Every 5 unique tailoring designs equal one item. The rest of the
tradeskills will equal 1 item.

- If at any time a Herald or a member of the Chancellory finds a shop
to be in default, warning will be issued that month and each
consecutive month thereafter for six months, whereupon the shop will
be magically locked. Following six additional months without
resolution, the shop will be remanded and auctioned off

III. Repossessed shops shall be auctioned first to the citizens of
Enorian, with the base price set by the Chancellory. If the bidding
fails to reach this reserve price, the auction will be extended to
the rest of the realm.

IV. Shopkeepers who maintain citizenship of Enorian will have their
shop taxes waived annually provided the following conditions are met:

- The Chancellor is notified each year that that year's taxes
should be waived.

- The shopkeep maintains the base number of items listed in clause II as
well as carrying at least three of the following items:

allsight, sigils, purity, eclipse medallion, resistance rings,
icewall and firelash, weapons, shields, armour, empty vials,
pipes, inks, tinderboxes and packs.

NOTE: Three separate items, not three of the same item.

- The shopkeep maintains a 10% discount for Enorian citizens.

- Shops belonging to guilds who reside within Enorian
may have their taxes waived.

- Shops belonging to an Order who appears on Enorian's
divine advisory may have their taxes waived.

V. Private sales can be conducted as the shopowner deems fit, but no
city enemies or unprotected guests may own shops within the
limits. Such establishments are due repossession.

It was a process of discussion about what was reasonable to maintain/acquire through tradeskills and those shopkeepers who by chance do not trade, and what seemed a reasonable entry level of variety to keep city shops from going stagnant and help reinforce the city's authority to yoink things if they go neglected outside of technical tax paying.

Erzsebet

Eh. 5 unique tailoring = 1 is dumb, IMO. (Even if adherence isn't a problem I'd ever run into).

Still. I think shops are perfectly fine as is.

ETA: That is to say, their numbers, and general variety across the board.

They're not without flaws, but I don't think those, which are the two biggest gripes raised by this thread, are actually problems.

Daskalos

That was put in because of certain shopkeeps in the past putting in one design in 15 different colors.

Erzsebet

...right. I could see a clause grouping colour or symbol-variants as one per type or whatever, but otherwise, I think it's arbitrary.

That said, personally, I think the biggest problem shops face is that there's not anywhere near enough room in them, even with a level 3 artifact. >.>

Eleanor

Eh, I think if you have enough stuff that you're breaking the cap, people are gonna tl;dr your wares list anyway. It's fine if you're looking for a specific thing and you're doing WARES THING, but if you're just browsing, lol nope having to hit 'more' eleventybillion times.

Seir

Yeah. I like that Enorian implemented that law. There are people who just on shops and do nothing with them except sell useless crap such as one pair of underwear in different colors. At least it ensures that shops will actually sell some relevant wares and keep them maintained and stocked.

And yeah, I don't even bother looking at an entire wares list. I usually know what I'm looking for when I go into a shop and will just use the directory to find it.

Erzsebet

Elea: If they want to tl;dr, that's fine. I don't know anyone that just reads through wares unless they're really bored. Most of the people I know either directory it now that we have that option, and/or do 'wares pants' or whatever they're looking for.

Tbh, if being over the limit didn't stop some things from showing up on the directory, I wouldn't care, since doing 'wares pants' will show all pants regardless of if the shop is over limit, unless you have so many pairs of -pants- that -that's- over the limit.

Jensen

Right now I price most of my refills at less than the ingredients to make them. Some are priced at the exact cost of the slices, but it's never higher. Reason being, I looked around at what others sell them at, pricing higher does not get me shop traffic. I have 2 types of stock, vanilla combat curing supplies IE plain vials, slices, and refills, the other stock is my food and beverage which are the rp flair element. To the cartel element, good luck. Try enforcing price policy on the MoS, I'd enjoy the rp line of it, but you aren't going to intimidate Jensen.

Moirean

See that doesn't make sense for me. Like, I can price curatives lower because I gather all the ingredients myself. I would never buy things and turn them into other things that sell for even less, that's just throwing money away - curatives bring in traffic if you consistently stock them, so people come there repeatedly to get more curatives. The curative crowd isn't coming there for RP stuff.

I do agree that there's been a really annoying trend over the past few years of undercutting that has led us to this spot where stuff sells for basically 1g each. The recent concoctions change has only made that a LOT worse. I can harvest 12,500 herbs a single day. That's just way too many. I don't really have much hope for fixing the market (especially for things that have free costs - the baseline price for those is what people value their time at, as time is the prime cost there). There's always going to be someone who's willing to undercut super low for a short term gain, even if it means less money in the long run because it drives the average value down.

I still think it's silly to price stuff below the cost to make it. I'm trying to remember what game it was that had this, but I remember there being a minimum vale for selling things in a game I played, ie you couldn't price stuff below the vendor/crafting costs. I always thought that was an interesting way to help guide players away from messing up baseline prices for everyone.

Aishia

Almost needs to be more herbsinks or something.

Areka

I rather like the concoctions change and think that rather than focusing on that (where you make profit from essentially nothing), we should find other ways to revitalize the economy through the other wares avenues.

Moirean

I like where they went with enchantments - letting us put stuff on a range of items means that people can sell cool jewelry and charge the cubes. This means that creative crafting has the potential to play a big role in profit, versus just time investment. I'd be so happy to see some more stuff along that line.

Jensen

It's still all profit, just less profit. I don't have to pay for inks or slices, it's just the time to gather them. I tend to see bulk purchases of select slices, and regular purchases of refills. So while I would make more gold only selling slices comparatively to the refills, I'm seeing more regular traffic from the refills (especially since cached items dont go bad, players don't need to restock things they hardly use.)

Moirean

Ah, I thought you meant that you were going out and buying inks and slices and I was like uhh why. :P

Jensen

I'm also slowly working on having every undead refill on cask. I think I'm the only Spinesreach shop that comes close. I'm falling behind right now because I've been getting my boat ready to be launched next week, and I need to set up my beehive this weekend, so log in time has been rough.

Moirean

That'll be really nice. Undead cask refills are actually an...untapped market in Spinesreach. Haha pun.

Erzsebet

I sell undead cask refills! >.> But yeah. I don't like the whole 'below vendor' thing, because our wares are inherently better than those of npc vendors. Last longer, etc. Also because you can't sell jewelcrafts at 2000-5000 gold--they just don't sell at that and that's baseline cost for most jewels.

Moirean

Yeah gems cost way too much.

Jensen

Most people have a few of the common refills. I have the tinctures, serums, and poultices save for like 4

Erzsebet

Shrug. They're not that bad, really. Even before I got 2500 credits worth of shiny put into my haven, gems were a lucrative way to make money--you just got it all from commissions, never from shop profit.

Moirean

Yeah you can make decent cash from commissions. I just don't really have interest in doing those these days and prefer to stock my shop, so all my stuff ends up getting made with, like mage crystals and obsidian.