Firebomb / Suicide Tactics

Dourif

@Seir so i guess lifers getting lightform/rebirth was all part of the RP logic and not due to lifers whining that darkies had it and they didn't?
Oh the vengence skill too forgot about that one.

Seir

Dourif said:

@Seir so i guess lifers getting lightform/rebirth was all part of the RP logic and not due to lifers whining that darkies had it and they didn't?

Strawman aside, I said absolute parity is impossible. There ARE certain mechanics such as Phase and Blackwind that, at the time of Lightform, would've been available to only one side and given the advantages of phase abilities, I'd say that is one of the circumstances where an appropriate exception can be made to be pro-parity in regards to skill mechanics. Firebomb is, once again, situational. You're free to prove me wrong in any other feasible application where it could effectively be used otherwise. In fact, I'd welcome it if you did.

Riluo

Seir

The joke is getting fairly old, folks, and is starting to look less of one and more like a way of making a veiled personal attack. In any event, it offers nothing constructive to the thread.

Sheirosia

Seir

Well, I tried to debate politely with folks, but it degraded into attacks about me 'possibly having one too many drinks' and thinly-veiled insults in the form of memes. Shrug. I'm fairly sure that the game isn't really that important enough to really start mocking others and dishing out ad hominum because they disagree with your personal stance on something in a game. It reflects pretty poorly on the community as a whole.

Alice

I rage idk what most these terms mean yet and don't know where to start in coding an offense to learn

Dourif

@Seir the fact that i haven't seen you involved in PK for over a year now, i don't find any of your statements true or valid.

Seir

Dourif said:

@Seir the fact that i haven't seen you involved in PK for over a year now, i don't find any of your statements true or valid.

That's fine, but it really has no bearing on the validity of my statements over all. Serrice could say the same thing if she wanted, would that make them any less true? Probably not. Given that Firebomb has not ever changed since I've played though, I would say that my knowledge on the subject is still up to date.

Moirean

Not really to throw fuel onto the...err...fire...But two changes have had a very inflammatory effect on the skill: 1. Fireblock blocks firebomb now, so the Lumies tank the first hit. That's a huge difference. 2. The change to lessers and xp means there is now no real downside to suicide bombing with it.

The second point is really what the issue is, not the skill itself. I absolutely understand why they did it, it's just silly that mechanics are encouraging something like this, ESPECIALLY since people are getting triple xp from killing THEIR OWN TEAMMATES. That's where the real issue is.

Rowena

Seir said:

Dourif said:

@Seir the fact that i haven't seen you involved in PK for over a year now, i don't find any of your statements true or valid.

That's fine, but it really has no bearing on the validity of my statements over all. Serrice could say the same thing if she wanted, would that make them any less true? Probably not. Given that Firebomb has not ever changed since I've played though, I would say that my knowledge on the subject is still up to date.

Leave firebomb alone, just make it unusable while you have ylem aura.

Make holos and singularity not go pop on unstable.

Problem fixed.

Seir

Rowena said:

Seir said:

Dourif said:

@Seir the fact that i haven't seen you involved in PK for over a year now, i don't find any of your statements true or valid.

That's fine, but it really has no bearing on the validity of my statements over all. Serrice could say the same thing if she wanted, would that make them any less true? Probably not. Given that Firebomb has not ever changed since I've played though, I would say that my knowledge on the subject is still up to date.

Leave firebomb alone, just make it unusable while you have ylem aura.

Make holos and singularity not go pop on unstable.

Problem fixed.

The problem is that you're removing the only situational use for Firebomb in the process. I agree with Moirean completely in that the issue lies with rewarding experience to individuals killing folks on their own side and that the mechanics favour this sort of thing now. There lies the issue.

Valingar

Moirean said:

Not really to throw fuel onto the...err...fire...But two changes have had a very inflammatory effect on the skill: 1. Fireblock blocks firebomb now, so the Lumies tank the first hit. That's a huge difference. 2. The change to lessers and xp means there is now no real downside to suicide bombing with it.

The second point is really what the issue is, not the skill itself. I absolutely understand why they did it, it's just silly that mechanics are encouraging something like this, ESPECIALLY since people are getting triple xp from killing THEIR OWN TEAMMATES. That's where the real issue is.

@Moirean: For the first point, you'll probably be happy to know Fireblock doesn't actually do what you think it does. Fireblock gives an Illumination user a 50% chance of resisting the ablaze affliction. This is useful in different ways, it's a great skill and all. But it doesn't stop the fire damage burst from firebomb, apart from what you might avoid from the ablaze affliction itself. I get why you'd be bothered, if you thought it did this.

The second one, sure, it's a perfectly valid point. I'd be on board with something like experience gains from lessers only being gotten from kills against people from other cities. Not that I ever gave a damn about experience. I did suicidal rushes long before lessers were made costless to die in.

Rashar

Hey, hey, hey, @serrice.. I've been at like every single fight that happened while I was logged on and not up to my elbows in some RP since I got back to the states. And I'm not using Daskalos' system. Hmph!

Ilyon

Seir said:

Inappropriate nature of that post aside, there are abilities and mechanics that won't always be available to the other side.

That's a rather significant departure from your usual position on perceived imbalances. It's also a much better position to take, so let's hope it lasts.

Seir said:

Lifers have no abilities that can actively strip prismatic barrier without a pre-existing condition such as a mind lock, and Mind Strip is still random. Carnifex, on the other hand, have the ability to do so.

This is factually incorrect. Not only does such an ability exist on the spirit side, it has existed for as long as Aetolia was open, just nobody seems to have thought of using it in this way. Now that they do, I've largely given up on trying to use prismatic in melee fights if the appropriate people are present.

As a parting thought, you really should actually play the game if you want to make statements like this. Contrary to your belief, the game did change over the last year, and much more so than you seem to realize.

Moirean

@valingar - ah, the combat messages make it look it blocks the hit entirely.

Seir

Ilyon said:

Seir said:

Inappropriate nature of that post aside, there are abilities and mechanics that won't always be available to the other side.

That's a rather significant departure from your usual position on perceived imbalances. It's also a much better position to take, so let's hope it lasts.

Seir said:

Lifers have no abilities that can actively strip prismatic barrier without a pre-existing condition such as a mind lock, and Mind Strip is still random. Carnifex, on the other hand, have the ability to do so.

This is factually incorrect. Not only does such an ability exist on the spirit side, it has existed for as long as Aetolia was open, just nobody seems to have thought of using it in this way. Now that they do, I've largely given up on trying to use prismatic in melee fights if the appropriate people are present.

As a parting thought, you really should actually play the game if you want to make statements like this. Contrary to your belief, the game did change over the last year, and much more so than you seem to realize.

To the first point, it's not really a departure to how I've thought at all. I've just never supported a huge disparity in comparison to abilities like old Lure and Beckon. I didn't just magically change my perceptions or ideas about balance. I'm simply not as aggressive as previously with my opinions because I largely don't see a point in arguing about changing the opinions of others if I have no hope of doing so nor am I as vested in Aetolia as I once was. Unfortunately, I have lapses in better judgment where I generally get baited into pursuing an argument. Ah well, old habits die hard.

To the second part, you'll have to enlighten me as to the ability. The only ability I know of that may do it through barrier is PERFORM FORCE.

And to your parting thought, maybe I am playing the game again. Maybe I've come back or maybe I've had an alt that I've been playing this entire time. I never denied that the game changed either. I'm actually quite aware that the game has changed in quite a few aspects. If you go back to my original statement to Dourif, I said: Firebomb has not changed. It has not. It was not a blanket statement that the entire game has remained stagnant.

Edit: I also don't know why Riluo is flagging this as a troll post. If, for some reason this post has come off as aggressive, I apologize and I will state that it was not my intention to do so.

Ilyon

Seir said:

To the second part, you'll have to enlighten me as to the ability. The only ability I know of that may do it through barrier is PERFORM FORCE.

Correct.

Seir

Yep. After testing with Dato, PERFORM FORCE does do it. Strange, could've sworn it was changed to not go through barrier. Though, I may be thinking of it doing that in another incarnation of Devotion elsewhere. I'll retract my example for Dourif for another then:

Spirit has traps and remain just as situational. Certainly more useful than Firebomb, for sure, and more often seen. This isn't meant as a perfect example, mind you, it's just to drive the point home that absolute parity and complete homogenization will never happen. However, there are examples as to when parity between both sides is preferable and you don't want to monopolize all the skills and particular mechanics to one side: Phase abilities is an example. Yes, I do think that lifers should have Lightform and Phase. To Dourif's other point, however, I do not feel that lifers should have Vengeance in the form of Rebirth. I do feel that Vengeance should be exclusive to Necromancy and that having something similar to Soulcage is strong enough already.

Nalor

Soo I've sat here and read all the posts.. Soo its fine for Ilyon to run in and TRY to holobomb a group of 6+ on his own... But its not fine for a group of 6 try to firebomb 12ish.. (cant remember the numbers)

pro tip: If you dont want to be firebombed.. KILL the person dropping them as its not like its a hidden message...

Now can we move on with rage or make a new topic?

Rowena

Seir said:

Rowena said:

Seir said:

Dourif said:

@Seir the fact that i haven't seen you involved in PK for over a year now, i don't find any of your statements true or valid.

That's fine, but it really has no bearing on the validity of my statements over all. Serrice could say the same thing if she wanted, would that make them any less true? Probably not. Given that Firebomb has not ever changed since I've played though, I would say that my knowledge on the subject is still up to date.

Leave firebomb alone, just make it unusable while you have ylem aura.

Make holos and singularity not go pop on unstable.

Problem fixed.

The problem is that you're removing the only situational use for Firebomb in the process. I agree with Moirean completely in that the issue lies with rewarding experience to individuals killing folks on their own side and that the mechanics favour this sort of thing now. There lies the issue.

Yeah but then you're just taking a dump because you can't win a straight fight.

Like... Firebomb is silly in general, but for RP stuff, sure. For team fighting massive AoE damage, whether it comes from firebomb, holocaust, singularity or any other skill is just bad for business.

Seir

Nalor: The main and legitimate complaint was from Moirean in that there is zero risk and complete and total reward for suicide bombing via the Firebomb ability. It's not just one person using it, it's multiple.

Edit: Anyway. Didn't mean to clog up the rants. I should go to sleep anyway.

Nalor

Seir said:

Nalor: The main and legitimate complaint was from Moirean in that there is zero risk and complete and total reward for suicide bombing via the Firebomb ability. It's not just one person using it, it's multiple.

Edit: Anyway. Didn't mean to clog up the rants. I should go to sleep anyway.

And, I would prefer to have firebomb then 3/4 people dopplespamming you while your at lesser fighting from a distance as you cant really shield while fighting! @Seir‌

Yes Indorani leave room and use doppledagger which is 1k a hit and goes through rebounding so no wonder they firebombed!

Moirean

@Nalor - you might not have actually seen firebomb. It can be started out of room. People hop in and basically instantly drop thousands of damage on the group. You can't "just kill them" to stop it, especially since they have rebirth (which also deals splash damage). The setup is not analagous to holos - holos are in-room and minimum 5 seconds per holo per person.

Nalor

Moirean said:

@Nalor - you might not have actually seen firebomb. It can be started out of room. People hop in and basically instantly drop thousands of damage on the group. You can't "just kill them" to stop it, especially since they have rebirth (which also deals splash damage). The setup is not analagous to holos - holos are in-room and minimum 5 seconds per holo per person.

You cant move of EQ ... @Moirean so its just like Holos' Soo You cant start it from another room.. I've just asked someone who doesn't seem to do foci no more

Damonicus

Wake up to 55 posts in rage about something ...that always gets raged about before. I thought something really happened...but no..same ole flying unicorns poop.

Moirean

@nalor:

Valingar said:

There are a lot ways around Firebombs. With those numbers, you could easy set some of the squishier members to the next room to wait out the firebomb. You could interrupt the prism (if they are using it that way) with a single curare snipe and watch the Luminaries blow up themselves without any damage to anyone but themselves. Firebomb is on a static timer, unlike holos. You can predict when the bombs will go off, and if you're smart, you're leaving the room when that happens unless you know you can tank it and returning a second after. Burrow, blackwind, fly, leap, evade, fade, sand shift, pathfinder, whatever works. Unlike with holocaust globes, Lumies can't run away from their own firebombs. But you can. After a bunch go off, they'll be either dead or at low health and it'll be easy to finish the job.

The Daru liaison seems to think otherwise. That's what I'm going off of.

Nalor

But either way the FIREBOMBER gets the damage too.. I dont see the problem it takes them 4 seconds of eq to activate and then 1 second to run into a room where that person also gains all the damage he has dealt.. @Moirean .. ((I'll kick the dude who told me they cant run when he gets out of his haven))

If you sit and let them drop more then.. aye..

Indorani are doing HIDDEN sensitivity without stripping deafness first like Luminary battle has to do because of all the complaints before about how OP that was.. or, 1k dagger from doppleganger and venom, and they dont even need to be in room but yet the whole top is complaining about a skill which gives the person doing the skill damage too.. makes no sense at all to me

Moirean

Yes. They take damage. They die. That's the crux of this debate - there's no downside to dying, so a handful of Luminaries can run in and lolsuicide to wipe out a team repeatedly, with no consequences - on the contrary, the Luminaries end up raking in xp.

Regarding the other stuff, that's not really related to this at all. Indorani probably could use some balancing, as they have new additions and all that, but I don't see how talk about an apple tastes is relevant in a discussion about oranges.

Nalor

Point is, this rage was pointless the last page ago.. As one side thinks one skill is a little OP as another thinks another skill is OP its just going to go round in circles...

You guys say firebombs is OP but downside is the person dies without losing xp.. from a Mage point of view, is, They dont die as they can drop and run which I've seen both Sides down...

Best is to get a topic start and try to get a admins input and leave rage, for rage ..