Firebomb / Suicide Tactics

Iosyne

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Rowena

Holo / Singularity / Firebomb at lessers.

I get that you get a ton of experience for blowing up the enemy and your own team and it doesn't matter if you or your team mates die but it makes team fighting rather dumb.

Part of the reason the no xp loss was introduced was to encourage lower level players to participate. Dropping holo globes over and over is doing wonders for that...

Like... can we actually fight instead of just bombing each other?

Daskalos

Yes, well, there were 13 of you and 6 of us. So, we did what we had to do. You didn't want a fight. You wanted a slaughter, and we flipped the script against superior numbers.


<4875/9263h 7034/7034m 33885e 26361w <eb> > <98|0|95|100|36.98%> <22:15:02:269>
With sudden motion, the flames surrounding Rashar flicker out as his skin grows increasingly hot. With a rush of power, the flames expel themselves from Rashar, burning everything in a torrent of fire.
The fires surround you, licking your skin and burning you horribly.
Health Lost: 269, fire.
Health Lost: 2306, fire.
Valingar uses Illumination Fireblock (proc).
Valingar's shield of flame repels the fiery attack.
Valingar has been slain by Rashar.
[Fortress]: Valingar has been slain by Rashar!
Valingar drops a stack of 122 bloodroot leaves.
Valingar drops a stack of 58 pieces of kelp.
Valingar drops a stack of 107 pieces of irid moss.
Valingar drops a stack of 54 sileris berries.
Valingar drops a stack of 2 pieces of prickly ash bark.
Valingar's body begins to glow unnaturally, seconds before you notice steam pouring off it. In the blink of an eye, flames erupt from him, showering the area in holy fire. As the flames die down, you see Valingar standing whole once more.
Health Lost: 1588, fire.
Serrice has been slain by Rashar.
[Fortress]: Serrice has been slain by Rashar!
Serrice drops an arrow.
Serrice drops a stack of 10 pieces of prickly ash bark.
Serrice drops a stack of 11 pieces of bayberry bark.
Serrice drops a stack of 10 bellwort flowers.
Serrice drops a stack of 70 bloodroot leaves.
Serrice drops a stack of 10 cohosh roots.
Serrice drops a stack of 59 ginseng roots.
Serrice drops a stack of 67 goldenseal roots.
Serrice drops a stack of 17 hawthorn berries.
Serrice drops a stack of 30 pieces of kelp.
Serrice drops a stack of 10 kola nuts.
Serrice drops a stack of 13 lobelia seeds.
Serrice drops a stack of 28 pieces of irid moss.
Serrice drops a stack of 10 sileris berries.
Serrice drops a valerian leaf.
Serrice drops a skullcap flower.
A starburst tattoo flares and bathes Serrice in red light.
With sudden motion, the flames surrounding you flicker out as your skin grows increasingly hot. With a rush of power, the flames expel themselves from you, burning everything in a torrent of fire.
Health Lost: 1000
A lash of energy whips out towards Coribhell, culling the soul from her body.
You have slain Coribhell.
Experience Gained: 90000 (Player Kill) [total: 14085517]
Jami uses Illumination Fireblock (proc).
Jami's shield of flame repels the fiery attack.
You have slain Moirean.
Experience Gained: 90000 (Player Kill) [total: 14175517]
Moirean drops some irid moss.
Moirean sends a mangy silver she-wolf back to the kennels, the hound whimpering as it departs.
Moirean sends a powerful mastiff back to the kennels, the hound whimpering as it departs.
Moirean sends a mire hound back to the kennels, the hound whimpering as it departs.
The sand pervading this area blows away as the magics controlling it disperse.
You have slain Taelin.
Experience Gained: 90000 (Player Kill) [total: 14265517]
A lash of energy whips out towards Mazzion, culling the soul from his body.
You have slain Mazzion.
Experience Gained: 90000 (Player Kill) [total: 14355517]
Mazzion drops an ugly sign.
Mazzion drops a sulphurite gland slice.
Mazzion drops a bladder slice.
Mazzion drops a castorite gland slice.
Mazzion drops a lung slice.
Mazzion drops a testis slice.
Mazzion drops a heart slice.
Mazzion drops a stomach slice.
Mazzion drops a tongue slice.
Mazzion drops a liver slice.
Mazzion drops an eyeball slice.
Mazzion drops an ovary slice.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a fragment of a mosaic.
Mazzion drops a pyramid carved of crystal.
Mazzion drops the corpse of Tellimerius, the Deep Dweller.
Mazzion drops a kidney slice.
Mazzion drops the corpse of Ylaida.
<1/9263h 7034/7034m 33885e 26361w <eb> > <98|0|95|100|37.93%> <22:15:02:772>

Amberlea

Eating my hat about the xp loss removal from lessers being a good thing.

Just got double suicide bombed to death by my own team who lol'd about it because, yep, don't matter.

Desire conflict, also desire it meaning something to people.

I get we were way outnumbered and doing something crazy was our best shot, but that wasn't fun at all, and nobody even considered for a second any strategic position beyond "bombs go off".

Rowena

I wasn't even there... if you read your logs you'll see that. I was in my Haven talking to people.

My gripe was over the tactic even being a thing... it's just silly. There's a reason we can't just open a pit on the things. Constant firebombs are almost as bad.

Ishin

I, myself, had a hearty fucking LOL at the firebomb chains. That shit was so funny. My WHOLE SCREEN was red and I was like OH SHIT THE RUSSIANS ARE ATTACKING D.C....then I saw it was just Dask and Co. frying half the game at once.

Daskalos

Firebombs are no different than a bunch of people running in and all setting holocaust bombs, or singularities. I guess we could take the Bloodloch approach and just not show up unless we have two to one odds.

Ishin

Daskalos said:

Firebombs are no different than a bunch of people running in and all setting holocaust bombs, or singularities. I guess we could take the Bloodloch approach and just not show up unless we have two to one odds.

You know I respek you and shit man, but it really annoys the fuck out of me when you say this, then half the time in the morning/during the day the odds are either fairly even, with us having maybe 2-3 more people at most, or us being pretty outnumbered, and you guys not getting any fight 'cause the 2-3 of us that ARE paying attention cbf to go fight 8 people.

Rowena

If you go back to my original post, I mentioned holocaust globes and singularities as well. The only reason it's a thing is no consequence, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it because your team would get mad at you for killing them which they apparently already are.

As for the last shot, I wasn't there, I'm Spines, so are half the numbers there when Moi and the Carnifex rock up. You can't stop people who want to participate, participating. Find more people to participate. One way to do that would be not bombing them over and over. I sit out plenty of lessers when I don't feel I'm needed, others do as well. That's all you can ask for evening the odds.

Moirean

You do realize we stopped tapping so we could xp farm you guys a bit? 70% fire audit means we can AoE once and rake in the xp you funnel at us by suiciding.

I think it's an absurd tactic but it's slightly better than normal lessers where, as a team leader and common primary target, I get pretty much no xp gain since I'm not hitting tons of people and I often die while others do clean-up.

Rowena

If you get targeted you can run and come back in, same as doing an honors mob.

Not always possible, I know. But I do it quite often and it works. Valingar used to do it constantly. It's a smart way to play. Force them to switch targets or stand around doing nothing.

Daskalos

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

Rashar

It might be noted that of the 6 or 7 of us there, I think 3 were like, level 2.

Just saying. No more ridiculous to have some laughs and take a few out than it is to just sit back and watch people die 1 second after the group targets them. I think it took you guys all of 3 seconds to kill Daskalos when he got lusted in.

Irruel

Yeah. It bites when you're the only leader calling targets, but that is the disadvantage of being in that position. You are forced to be defensive to try and survive to call more targets, because if you die and stop calling them your team will wipe.

I've created an alias for targeting that is alternate to my normal T TARGET. X TARGET will call my target on web regardless of whether I am in caller mode or not. I'm still too clueless to use it >.> but the theory is sound - if Valingar dies or decides to run, or Aishia just forgets to turn calling on, I can step in an make some calls of my own.

What I need now is for people to listen to my calls, and to actually remember to make them when they're needed.

what you, @moirean, need to do is get some people on your side to do the same, so you don't always have to be the leader.

Rowena

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

No one is stopping you from doing tactics that work, tfix, retri kill or just plain bash people to death with damage in big fights. Try split the ground with lures and abductions. Use tactics. I just think the constant bombing is getting old.

It's not about nerfing it because it works, it's about it being stupid. There's no fight, just bombs going off with your own team mates dying as well.

I usually don't die from them because I'm decked in artifacts and my system uses crystal tattoo and ylem core. It just dumb, it takes the combat out of fighting.

Toz

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

Every tactic should have a counter-play, or a heavy cost associated with it. For the same reason that Carnifex souldrain kept getting nerfed, so too should this. The tradeoff/investment required for results is absurdly skewed. And, while group fights get absurd, AoE is just stupid for things like this. Especially mass AoE.

Moirean

BL will call. Spines is working on it. It's a goal I've been pushing the city to take up. Our fighters are, for the most part, far less experienced and new. It's not a problem, it's just a long-term task of building the city up. By long-term, I mean LONG term. Xenia is basically our earliest newb and a year later, she's starting to blossom into leadership. That sort of thing takes time.

It's also something I'm used to - I'm just pointing out that the xp changes have their downsides. I already posted a lot about this. I end up losing xp at half of the lessers, though, due to the tendency these days to rush during eld kills. Some fights (like that one in Salma where I was just divebombing in for every few minutes) can be super fun, but some can feel like a waste of time and terribly stressful. The shiny is starting to wear off and people are beginning to get irked by the types of tactics they encourage. At the least, you really shouldn't be getting xp from killing allies. It would also be nice if you got a bit of xp for assists you helped set up, even if you ended up taking one for the team and dying, or ducking out to snipe/etc.

@rashar - the fact that people are like level 2 or 3 and running in to blindly flail around in hopes of getting a KB kinda illustrates how people are using lessers as cheesy xp funnels. It's like the old lesson gambling, but with xp. O.o

Seir

Toz said:

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

Every tactic should have a counter-play, or a heavy cost associated with it. For the same reason that Carnifex souldrain kept getting nerfed, so too should this. The tradeoff/investment required for results is absurdly skewed. And, while group fights get absurd, AoE is just stupid for things like this. Especially mass AoE.

AB NECROMANCY VENGENANCE

Vengeance (Necromancy) Known: No
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: VENGEANCE
At the cost of a fair amount of life essence, you will exact revenge on your killers when you die.

Shadow can do it too. It's no different from a Vengeance bomb.

While I'm not accusing Toz of this, I'm fairly sure that if the shoe was on the other foot, this forum conversation would be going the exact same way.

Ishin

We can't run in and vengeance-bomb on command, bro. We actually gotta die. Be SEIR-ious.

Toz

Seir said:

Toz said:

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

Every tactic should have a counter-play, or a heavy cost associated with it. For the same reason that Carnifex souldrain kept getting nerfed, so too should this. The tradeoff/investment required for results is absurdly skewed. And, while group fights get absurd, AoE is just stupid for things like this. Especially mass AoE.

AB NECROMANCY VENGENANCE

Vengeance (Necromancy) Known: No
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: VENGEANCE
At the cost of a fair amount of life essence, you will exact revenge on your killers when you die.

Shadow can do it too. It's no different from a Vengeance bomb.

While I'm not accusing Toz of this, I'm fairly sure that if the shoe was on the other foot, this forum conversation would be going the exact same way.

Probably. That being said, R.I.P. Doppie hangedman, Carnifex soul drain, snipe(x300000), lure.

Serrice

Rowena said:

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

No one is stopping you from doing tactics that work, tfix, retri kill or just plain bash people to death with damage in big fights. Try split the ground with lures and abductions. Use tactics. I just think the constant bombing is getting old.

It's not about nerfing it because it works, it's about it being stupid. There's no fight, just bombs going off with your own team mates dying as well.

I usually don't die from them because I'm decked in artifacts and my system uses crystal tattoo and ylem core. It just dumb, it takes the combat out of fighting.

I really don't like posting anything here, but this really bothered me.

Are you saying that that lifers have no tactical sense? That's silly. We have plenty of people with tactical sense. Let me paint a picture of that last push: we have Ylaida, a level 82 without a system at all, Nug, 83, who has minimal offense and a homebrew system, Rashar, someone who PKs rarely and just uses Dask's system, and me, Daskalos, Amberlea, and Valingar. Who are we up against? Moirean, Mazzion, Ezalor, Ison, Furtum, Grimdale, Coribhell, Feichin, Yarel, Riluo, Zsadist, Lyl, and Taelin.

What would you have us do, eh?

Beckon against double blocking? Convocation rites against Teradrim? Run the gauntlet when the other side has four Indorani, two Syssin, and two Carnifex who can range damage half our group to death, AND strip shields because of the Teradrim? Or lust us into a group? Jump into a grand melee when we're outnumbered quite literally nearly 2 to 1 and hope that we can squeeze a victory out? (and in fact, when we saw that only five were in a room, we did in fact rush into melee, and did hope that we could get something out of it)

To tell us that 'No one is stopping you from doing tactics that work' is a gross misrepresentation of facts, implies that we're too stupid to do anything other than lolderpfirebomb, and is rather insulting. We work with what we have and adjust to the situation. The very fact that people are complaining irks me to no end.

@Ishin? Your 2-3 can't be F'ed to fight 8? Guess what Valingar, Aishia, and I have done? That's right, gone up against 8, with just the three of us. Last instance I recall was two days ago, and we synergized and did our best and grabbed a couple of kills before we were overwhelmed. So we're giving you fights. We're giving you fights practically all quarters of the day, even when outnumbered and horribly outmatched. To not only hear that the other side 'cbf' to pay us the same respect, AND to hear them imply we don't have any tactical sense?

I recognize that sometimes, we've been winning and someone has just spontaneously decided to drop holocausts and murderize the entire battlefield. Trust me, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. But that was not the case here, and neither has it been the case in any firebombing I've witnessed.

@Amberlea: I had fun. Valingar had fun. Daskalos had fun. I can poll Nug, Jaan, Rashar, and Ylaida if you'd like.

Ishin

@Serrice - That's nice? Do you like...want a cookie or something? Just because you guys did it doesn't mean we do, or that we will. The whole 'I DID IT SO YOU CAN TOO' just doesn't work for me, sry bro.

Toz

@Serrice, I would argue that the problem isn't that you're tactically unsound. It's that, short of a grievous mistake, you really SHOULDN'T be able to beat back double your numbers with a raw, inexperienced team. Especially not using 1-2 skills. If anything, firebomb is the ONLY tactic that makes sense in that situation, and since there's nothing to lose, well, why not? Not like the defenders can stop it at all - so long as you guys can get into the room before the firebombs go off, lots of people are going to die. No way for the defenders to wipe every single Lumie out (might get 1-2 if they're REALLY on it). So you have a situation where a perfect team of 20 can stare down a team of 10 newbies with 1-2 aliases and a single competent leader, and that team of 20 can suffer disproportionate casualties. Suicide-rushing was previously balanced to some small extent by xp loss, and now it's not so it's becoming more and more prevalent.

Valingar

There are a lot ways around Firebombs. With those numbers, you could easy set some of the squishier members to the next room to wait out the firebomb. You could interrupt the prism (if they are using it that way) with a single curare snipe and watch the Luminaries blow up themselves without any damage to anyone but themselves. Firebomb is on a static timer, unlike holos. You can predict when the bombs will go off, and if you're smart, you're leaving the room when that happens unless you know you can tank it and returning a second after. Burrow, blackwind, fly, leap, evade, fade, sand shift, pathfinder, whatever works. Unlike with holocaust globes, Lumies can't run away from their own firebombs. But you can. After a bunch go off, they'll be either dead or at low health and it'll be easy to finish the job.

Moirean

But then we don't get xp. Once we saw what you were doing, we sat and tanked them. Ylem bombs got some of us, and the newbs just flat out died until we had them start sitting outside and sniping in, but what's the motivation to stop you? Almost all of us got SOME xp from the firebombs, even if we died. Killing you outside of room means no xp. The way lessers are currently set up, stupid combat like this is encouraged.

Toz

Valingar said:

There are a lot ways around Firebombs. With those numbers, you could easy set some of the squishier members to the next room to wait out the firebomb. You could interrupt the prism (if they are using it that way) with a single curare snipe and watch the Luminaries blow up themselves without any damage to anyone but themselves. Firebomb is on a static timer, unlike holos. You can predict when the bombs will go off, and if you're smart, you're leaving the room when that happens unless you know you can tank it and returning a second after. Burrow, blackwind, fly, leap, evade, fade, sand shift, pathfinder, whatever works. Unlike with holocaust globes, Lumies can't run away from their own firebombs. But you can. After a bunch go off, they'll be either dead or at low health and it'll be easy to finish the job.

And shield stops doppie hangedman from hitting you at all. It also stops snipe. You can also icewall to stop it, and dodged ranged. These things were deemed not sufficient however due to the nature of what was trying to be accomplished - lessers are not mobile events, for the defenders. Can you mobilize? Certainly. Does it benefit the defenders to do so at all? Not unless absolute survival is on the line - having a whole group scatter as a combat tactic is an absurd one, just as absurd as suggesting all marchers stay shielded all the time.The coordination of everyone darting out of the room right before a prism goes off is much higher than (Web): Daskalos says, "FIREBOMB" at a certain point in the prism attempt, and then there's no guarantee that's actually what you're doing. Maybe it's just a rush. Maybe you're going to drop holos with a mage coming in later. There are too many variables stacked actively AGAINST the defenders to make dealing with firebombs a 'fair' proposition - especially without an equivalent skill on the other side of things. Rebirth/Firebomb vs Vengeance; if you want things to stay as they are (and I certainly hope they don't), then there should be an icebomb or whatever equivalent you want.

As for me, I think I've made my case fairly reasonably over the last few posts. Firebombs/AoE attacks are absurdly potent at lessers. They should not be present, or they should be greatly scaled back in some form. A group of 10 with 1 trigger should not be able to overcome a group of x people. 10 Luminaries firebombing in will deal massive damage to everyone in the room, regardless of numbers and organization, and there is no counter other than reading the mind of the attacking team and somehow marshaling your entire group to retreat 1 room, count to three, then rush back in - an act which, by the way, forces your superior numbers to give up their fortified position. It's too strong.

Seir

The logic that I've seen throughout this entire argument is: "It killed our group which should've won alone via sheer numbers, ergo overpowered." If you don't want stuff like Firebomb to be able to take on your large group, provide a mechanical means that allows smaller groups to engage larger ones that also places a disincentive on AoE damage and everyone attacking the same person. Just because you're able to muster a much larger group (which nearly all of the time in comparison to Spirit save maybe once in a blue moon) doesn't mean you should automatically win. While I don't like the tactic as I believe it discourages group combat, I don't really count myself surprised either that spirit has to use it against those odds.

Edit: I'd like to add that Firebomb in its current incarnation is already heavily situational as is. Most of Spirit's kit for groups involves abilities that are very situational or "double-edged swords" that negatively impact our group when we use them (no, not in regards to dhurives). This is all I'm going to say on the matter because I don't really see any further point in debating something that is just going to go in circles with no one conceding on any points. Agree to disagree.

Dourif

Seirously man, i think you've had one too many cans of Guiness tonight. The point is we don't have any skill that is similar to firebomb, to do the same to a large group of lifers. It's a one sided affair in that sense.

Rowena

Serrice said:

Rowena said:

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

No one is stopping you from doing tactics that work, tfix, retri kill or just plain bash people to death with damage in big fights. Try split the ground with lures and abductions. Use tactics. I just think the constant bombing is getting old.

It's not about nerfing it because it works, it's about it being stupid. There's no fight, just bombs going off with your own team mates dying as well.

I usually don't die from them because I'm decked in artifacts and my system uses crystal tattoo and ylem core. It just dumb, it takes the combat out of fighting.

I really don't like posting anything here, but this really bothered me.

Are you saying that that lifers have no tactical sense? That's silly. We have plenty of people with tactical sense. Let me paint a picture of that last push: we have Ylaida, a level 82 without a system at all, Nug, 83, who has minimal offense and a homebrew system, Rashar, someone who PKs rarely and just uses Dask's system, and me, Daskalos, Amberlea, and Valingar. Who are we up against? Moirean, Mazzion, Ezalor, Ison, Furtum, Grimdale, Coribhell, Feichin, Yarel, Riluo, Zsadist, Lyl, and Taelin.

What would you have us do, eh?

Beckon against double blocking? Convocation rites against Teradrim? Run the gauntlet when the other side has four Indorani, two Syssin, and two Carnifex who can range damage half our group to death, AND strip shields because of the Teradrim? Or lust us into a group? Jump into a grand melee when we're outnumbered quite literally nearly 2 to 1 and hope that we can squeeze a victory out? (and in fact, when we saw that only five were in a room, we did in fact rush into melee, and did hope that we could get something out of it)

To tell us that 'No one is stopping you from doing tactics that work' is a gross misrepresentation of facts, implies that we're too stupid to do anything other than lolderpfirebomb, and is rather insulting. We work with what we have and adjust to the situation. The very fact that people are complaining irks me to no end.

@Ishin? Your 2-3 can't be F'ed to fight 8? Guess what Valingar, Aishia, and I have done? That's right, gone up against 8, with just the three of us. Last instance I recall was two days ago, and we synergized and did our best and grabbed a couple of kills before we were overwhelmed. So we're giving you fights. We're giving you fights practically all quarters of the day, even when outnumbered and horribly outmatched. To not only hear that the other side 'cbf' to pay us the same respect, AND to hear them imply we don't have any tactical sense?

I recognize that sometimes, we've been winning and someone has just spontaneously decided to drop holocausts and murderize the entire battlefield. Trust me, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. But that was not the case here, and neither has it been the case in any firebombing I've witnessed.

@Amberlea: I had fun. Valingar had fun. Daskalos had fun. I can poll Nug, Jaan, Rashar, and Ylaida if you'd like.

That fight in particular was a lost cause. That happens when numbers are skewed, there isn't really anything you can do against that.

We usually just let the lifers have it when odds are that way.

Like, I think because of what's recently happened people are getting hung up on that last fight but that's not what my post was about at all. I was just speaking in general as an observer from both sides, it's a trend that has been happening for a bit now and I'm pretty sure Mazz and co. did it first.

It's a bad trend as it takes the combat out of fights and makes it exceptionally hard on lower level players that can't take a hit from a holocaust globe like the artied ones can.

Seir

Dourif said:

Seirously man, i think you've had one too many cans of Guiness tonight. The point is we don't have any skill that is similar to firebomb, to do the same to a large group of lifers. It's a one sided affair in that sense.

Inappropriate nature of that post aside, there are abilities and mechanics that won't always be available to the other side. Absolute parity and homogenization is impossible without gutting roleplay and the 'flavour' of other classes. Lifers have no abilities that can actively strip prismatic barrier without a pre-existing condition such as a mind lock, and Mind Strip is still random. Carnifex, on the other hand, have the ability to do so. The shadow's complete lack of a Firebomb clone is not justification to why it is overpowered. If you had said: 'It allows to a small group to do a large amount of AoE damage with little setup', I'd be inclined to agree. However, it has been shown that it is avoidable and the 'how' was provided above, all of which are very much available and feasible options.

Rowena

Seir said:

Toz said:

Daskalos said:

Yea, but it's a circle, and it's getting old. You can't stop people from participating, but when we don't come out for fights, its 'oh god we can't get fights'. And when we do come out for fights, and use a tactic that -works- against the numbers being thrown at us, it's 'oh god let's nerf\change this'. No one wants a fight. They want to win at all costs, and that annoys the crap outta me.

Every tactic should have a counter-play, or a heavy cost associated with it. For the same reason that Carnifex souldrain kept getting nerfed, so too should this. The tradeoff/investment required for results is absurdly skewed. And, while group fights get absurd, AoE is just stupid for things like this. Especially mass AoE.

AB NECROMANCY VENGENANCE

Vengeance (Necromancy) Known: No
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: VENGEANCE
At the cost of a fair amount of life essence, you will exact revenge on your killers when you die.

Shadow can do it too. It's no different from a Vengeance bomb.

While I'm not accusing Toz of this, I'm fairly sure that if the shoe was on the other foot, this forum conversation would be going the exact same way.

... it's dumb either way.

It's dumb if we do it, it's dumb if you do it. I don't think nukes plus team fights = good for group combat. It doesn't require targeting, or coordination. It's not about you can Firebomb, we can't. If I was a lighter PvPer I wouldn't want it happening. You're killing team mates and often yourself. It's a thing because of the changes to XP.

Yeah, skewed odds are a part of it, but that happens both ways, it depends on who's awake, all you can do is encourage participation and maybe sit out if you're not needed but even then cities offer rewards for lesser participation.

AoE bombing just isn't fun, I hate it when my team are using singularities.