Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 3.7K All Categories
- 3K The Midnight Age
- 757 Announce posts
- 125 Newbies
- 6 Class Guides
- 804 Harpy's Head Tavern
- 57 Echo Canyon
- 310 Self-Affirmations
- 163 Town Crier
- 135 The Exchange
- 167 Sparring Grounds
- Combat Guides
- 30 Combat Logs
- 188 Idea Box
- 9 Classleads
- 578 Roleplay Logs
- 107 Aetolia Development
- 5 The Void
- 744 Miscellaneous
- 9 Announcements
- 417 OOC Chat
- 217 Tech Talk
- 47 Scripts
Looking for more active discussion? Join our Discord at https://discord.gg/x2s7fY6
RP between cities
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I will say that I think that there are instances of people being a bit too sensitive about things (see Muffingate and the length of ripples it caused), but at the same time, there's also many, many occurrences of giving an inch and people taking a mile (and a lot of cases of people not taking into consideration their orgs' stance. "We were only talking" when in someone's haven (where no one can get to you if there's an issue) or a -bedroom- for several hours combined with other behaviour, etc).
It's one of the reasons why if I'm RPing with darkies, I do it in public spaces and neutral grounds because it both invites others to participate, and if anyone -has- concerns, they can stop by or send someone to eavesdrop or what-have-you and see what's actually going on.
One thing I've noticed is that there's a lot of issues with moderation/middle ground with Aetolia, and unfortunately, the lack of self control or consideration for the larger/entangled pictures results in blanket policies/stigmas that take the fun/potential away from everyone. There isn't a consistent handling of the problem children as a playerbase which in turn puts orgs in a bind.
Unfortunately, I must admit that over the course of playing several alts, my experience has been very similar to what Minarael and Serrice describes. I'd also like to see more interaction between sides. It doesn't have to be conflict, or an explosion into all-out war. Interaction doesn't necessarily have to be about making friends or getting swayed to the other side. If I'm standing around, and someone throws me a dirty glance, or say something nasty, I get a hell of a kick out of it because I know that the -player- bothered to reach out, rather than just flat out ignored me.
1) Why should the players in Enorian who believe in the RP as it is change because someone on the other side doesn't like it? Someone asked me the city's stance on Moirean's brothel, and my response was 'we have no stance'. Generally, our stance on anything is 'it's up to your guild'.
2) While the culture of Enorian might be as such, there aren't any laws against it. Enorian is doing fairly well as a city, and rocking and rolling. Why would I want to change that?
3) Too often people say 'I got slapped on the wrist' and 9 times out of 10, the person in question was a disrespectful brat about a situation and that's going to get you slapped on the wrist no matter what. If, when questions 'what are you doing with XYZ' you respond with 'none of your business' then it's going to go bad for you instead of you saying 'oh, I'm talking to them because I'm trying to convert them.'. A Luminary recently came to me and said 'hey, I'm trying to convert XYZ' and I said 'hey, no problem'.
4) A large basis of Enorian is based around the Revelation, which is IG doctrine, and since I've refocused the guild on it a bit more, the guild has a purpose again and suddenly hello topguilds #1. The Revelation states 'do not seek to befriend the enemy, for you will find only yourself as the convert'.
5) In addition to the Revelation is a book written by Auresae known as the Bestowment, which further re-iterates this stance.
6) (e-- Come on dude.) If you want something to change, change it IG. Our people don't all idle in Enorian, I can think of at least one Luminary that idles in a forest. Many citizens hang out at Black Flagon. Black Flagon is -owned by an Enorian Herald-.
For all the talk of Forum RP, I think this thread is turning into one reallllly fast. But then, things don't change IG because of what is said on these forums, so keep talking. We'll keep growing as an organization, and rocking out with each other. I'm not going to change a growing culture because some people on the forums who don't even play characters in Enorian are telling us we're doing it wrong.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Questioning the relationships and ideals between Orgs can change the way that particular orgs are being run, or the direction they're heading in. It doesn't have to be something huge, game-changing, or an OOCly oriented ordeal to have your character take a step in a particular direction. I believe that everyone has the potential, ICly, to question the people around them and opposite of them.
Just a very vague Example/Idea:
HELP ENORIAN claims, "..Daru, Enorian's citizens considered to be the most zealous in all the realm." - This is making a public statement, in the form of a fluffed help file. You could easily question the Daru now, and question their Zealotry with the ferocity of Bloodloch's own zealotry for tradition in Undeath/Vampirism, with high-stake confrontations and relatively Minimal PvP. If there's PVP, oh well, learn and move on with the RP, based on that angle.
Maintaining a "kill them because they are evil/good" works if we demonize the other side through shallow RP encounters, RP encounters based around really over the top caricatures and/or RP encounters centered only around conflict - more intense and in-depth encounters make it quite clear that the "enemy" is not a faceless demon, but thinking, sentient targets. Imo, the root of the issue is that we're still clinging to a very outdated reason for conflict, and for that to work, we have to promote some odd and clunky RP outlooks.
This may just be an inherent problem with fantasy RP in general - how do you play a believeable good or bad guy without being either boring or insane? I find it a bit absurd sometimes that I go off and lead my followers around just slaughtering villages. It's over-the-top and I try to couch it in justification about making them stronger and fighting for bigger goals, kinda a Ghengis Khan sort of territorial thing, but in the end we're committing mass genocide (pretty much all of us) daily because of the mechanics of the game itself. Is it even possible to play nuanced and subtle characters when it comes to conflict?
You clearly don't see this issue, I don't have the energy to debate it into the ground, so I'll happily agree to disagree with your perspective on the matter.
Edit - Also, it is not -my- side of the game. I play both sides. I have an equal number of characters on the light side and the dark. That entire attitude is the problem here.
As for the beliefs -- the Age of Dawn is an analog to the Bible's Rapture. It'll probably never happen in any of our lifetimes, but that's where faith and such come in. Just because you don't enjoy it being on the other side doesn't mean we don't. If you cut down mechanical walls, and you start saying 'be friends with everyone' then you will further kill conflict. Conflict for money in a game where OOC money can play such a huge role is impossible. Once upon a time, Enorian had a plan to beat Loch by bleeding Loch dry of resources. It almost worked, and right before the howling that would of caused their entire militia to quit, Shoimoro showed up out of nowhere and gave 'em 5 million gold. Sorry, but economical pressure doesn't exist in this system. Oh, you cost Enorian a million gold? Let me grab my credit card, I can fix that. Territorial motivations are ok, and maybe things will play a bigger part in that when factions come out, but on that basis we used to do massive treaties involving areas and it worked. And then someone would say 'I want the X' and war would break out. Good and evil can very much be political. There are people I know who believe the pres is the devil himself because of his stances.
Either way, no one can point to examples or name names. Some faceless Templar yelled at Minarael and others keep saying 'it happened', yet the Templar GM doesn't know about it. And, @Serrice, I brought up Loch enemying everyone because it was brought up that 'enemying everyone stifles RP'. Isn't that a two-way street? Name names, Mina. As for the Syssin that was enemied, he probably could have been handled differently, but I had nothing to do with that and don't even know the situation you're speaking of.
I'm just sick and tired of people coming on the forums and going 'Enorian does this bad Enorian does that bad'. There are those of us busting our ass to make our org the best it can be, and when people who don't contribute, who don't bring actions up in game, throw a fit on the forums, it sucks. You want change? Then man up and bring it up in game and stop trying to change the culture of a player run organization through things said on the forums. Saying 'Enorian doesn't allow XYZ' with mysterious, faceless Templars and incidents that you can't provide names in is ridiculous and a waste of my time. You want to talk about this further, then bring it up in game.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Re ideology - individual citizens may be heavily driven by religious or philosophical motivations, but that's more of an internal organizational thing unless we get to the level of human rights atrocities. Abortion, health-care and gay rights are huge hot button topics in America and are very ideological, but you don't see our foreign affairs dictated by whether X nation allows gay marriage or not. I am not saying that ideology itself is unbelievable or unrealistic, I'm saying that for orgs to dictate foreign policy (versus internal politics) based on it - that's where things become unrealistic.
@Areka - It wasn't a big enough deal for your attention to be called to it. The Templar I've been RPing with still has interactions with Mina. I don't think it was a Templar thing, more of a particular individuals in the Templar issue.
I do not believe enemy status, a mechanical thing, is directly related to potential conflict RP. The only reason I brought up the enemy status of the newb at Four Corners was because it was done -reflexively-. Without thought and over the objections of Enorians there at the time.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
It does not have to be encoded into law for it to be Enorian's culture.
It does not have to only come from city leadership for it to be Enorian's culture.
It does not have to be the belief or action of every member of the city for it to be Enorian's culture.
Edit - The politics in Enorian do not greatly encourage participation in the politics of Enorian. Don't assume, however, that people don't make an effort to improve the city just because you see critique about it on the forums.
Edit: To be productive - what would you guys like to see change (keeping in mind the org's overall role/motivations/RP integrity that Shadow and Undeath is bad and the fact that polarity IS an in-game thing that isn't going away any time soon)? Specific tangible things/examples of where things COULD have gone differently/better, not ephemeral 'just change' because that doesn't give me much to work with.
It doesn't come from Enorian law.
Yet it happens. Because the players put peer pressure on others? Seems to me the players have decided how they want to play. You want to be more neutral, go to Duiran. You probably shouldn't of had a char here in the first place. With multiclassing, it's not even about skills anymore.
I'm sorry, but it really irks me, knowing the work that I put into the guild and city, to hear someone disparaging our hard work as if we're doing something wrong, because you don't like it. It particularly irks me that you don't have the courage to challenge it in game, and instead try to summon a forum mob to shit on the work that I, and others, have done. Change happens through interaction, through discussion, through RP. Association laws, even for the guilds that have them, are nothing like they were in the past. I was recently pushed to have -stricter- Association laws and I said no. If enough players don't like the culture, the culture -can- change, but it's going to be done through in game, in character discussion and roleplay. It's not going to be done because a handful of people who have alts in Enorian want to be able to hang out with their alts Lochian friends without people questioning why they're there.
Edit: I'd also like to note that one of our full-guild-membership tasks in the Luminaries involves giving out a copy of the Revelation to someone else (anyone else) as an attempt to spur interaction with others. But, hey, our culture is one that says don't interact with anyone outside our group.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."
Edit: I'm just going to stay out of the discussion as we're reopening cans of worms that have been rehashed a thousand times before. If people wanted to change they would change and that's perfectly in their right to do so. I'll leave it at that.
Althought I do agree with you on the whole Order/Ylem part being the only large scale resolution for conflict, though judging off recent activity, I'd say its only Ylem. I haven't seen any Order conflicts for a good couple months.
I was working on an entire path that described ideas for conflict oriented RP. I did most of my work within my guild. Don't make assumptions about what I do IG.
I was responding to Haven's post asking why that sort of thing doesn't happen more. For me, it's -directly related- to the culture. Yes, culture can change. I seriously considered making changing Enorian's culture in this regard the focus of Ayaeva. Instead, I decided it was genuinely not worth the stress such a push would cause me so I decided to do something else. Above all, this is a recreational activity for me. Not a job. I don't find banging my head into a wall repeatedly to be fun, so I decided to focus elsewhere. I am sorry if you find this frustrating. I've played these games long enough to know what I find enjoyable, what I don't, and to know that it's really not worth doing anything that's going to cause -me- RL stress.
That said, it's a LOT easier to push changes to the culture of a place -from- a position of leadership. So, since I see this particular issue and I have heard it echoed from others -and- I know leadership there reads the forums, I think it's worthwhile to make a critique of it on the forums. Do with it what you will.
Areka has some idea of what I find engaging in terms of conflict RP, or should, because we've discussed it a few times. Enemy status doesn't have anything to do with it. I'm not pushing for snuggle time with darkies. With Ayaeva, I had wanted to push for public lectures, debates, conversion RP, bringing art to public places with light themes, literally anything that pushes the agenda forward without violence is fair game. Right down to papering the other side with Jack Chick style leaflets (letters?). Yes, Aya probably would have gotten attacked for it. That creates opportunity for PKers to have at each other. Aya could have gathered guards for those who wanted to attempt more aggressive conversion activities (like the lectures/debates/sermons).
One on one stuff is like Mina was doing with the templar she ran across. Discussions challenging the worldview and perspective of the other, making them defend their beliefs, suggesting how their world could improve if only they embraced -thing A-. The tension between players who are on opposite sides of a fence but still have something to learn from one another is enjoyable. Further, challenge helps cement someone's position. It's good all around.
There's a whole world of opportunity in a game which seems to actually embrace RP -and- conflict that I don't see happening as often as it should because of the hard line stances being taken in some areas of the game. That disappoints me. Some players (Moirean's pregnancy being a recent notable event) are obviously finding ways. I'd enjoy seeing it become more common place because that sort of RP opens up more doors for player-driven RP events and for player-driven conflict that leads to PK outside of resource management (ylem presently). All around good.
Players who are abusing quasi open-door policies that allow for this sort of RP so they can have sexy times can just be dealt with. Actions have consequences. This isn't even worthy of mentioning, but since someone inevitably uses it as justification to lock down doors...
Don't think there's much more constructive I can add to this discussion.
1) You don't want to handle it in game, and so you know leadership reads the forums and you hoped by posting here it would change how they play their characters. This just seems like metagaming, and while I see your point, to me, it's bad RP to try to influence the way people play their characters via forum critique. I mean, if it was a self-affirmation, sure, but as an organization, we didn't really ask for one. I've had 2 members of the council in Enorian hit me up on aim going 'man, she must hate Enorian' and it makes them not enjoy doing -their- jobs. I don't want good people getting bummed out because they work hard and their hard work is being trivialized on the forums. That sets me wrong.
2) Leaflets, sermons, et al. - There is absolutely nothing wrong with -any- of that and I don't think I've ever heard of a situation where someone has been told 'don't have a sermon'. As for the Templar Mina ran across, it is possible that they have a rule similar to the Luminaries -- wait until you're a full member. We do that so we know our people are well indoctrinated so they know the stance to take when confronted with questions and challenges to their beliefs.
3) I hope by your comment about Moirean's pregnancy you're not advocating more intimate relationships between Enorian citizens and others. Ask @Hadoryu how that works out. (Hi Had!)
4) Players -do- abuse open door policies, and have, time and again. It unfortunate, but when you can't trust the players to be mature enough about it (remember what got the war system as it was years ago deleted was an alt of a Lochian abusing the occupation ministry) it's what it is.
5) Again, why would we push for something that's already alive and thriving? I mean, these aren't bad ideas and we're looking at holding some stuff, but we're not going to hold a ball and invite everyone. Not our style. Leadership could push for change, but what you're wanting is what Enorian did for years, and the city wasn't doing so hot. Now, the Age of Dawn and all that is back at the forefront, and the city is doing well. Highest numbers I've seen in years. The GWHO for the Luminaries is bigger than I saw CWHO at for a long time. Why would I want to change something, right now, that's working?
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."