RP between cities

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Haven

Who is to say there can't be some sort of relationship between Enorian and Bloodloch too outside of ignoring each other until a lesser/World Event crops up? I'd love to see some creative ways for the two opposing sides to interact that didn't necessarily degenerate into outright violence.

Riluo

Family picnic perhaps!

Rashar

@haven I have always wondered why it's like that.

In my eyes if you're going to have this black and white hostility thing, you just need to be at war. I think it would be so much more exciting to go walk through Bloodloch and get all those hungry stares and stalkers. Sure, you fight elsewhere. You might even fight -in- the city, and face whatever civil consequences that might draw. Jail, fines, bounties, whatever. I think we're so quick to enemy people here, and that's such a destroyer of RP opportunity.

I look at it like current times. Sure, we might not be friends with certain groups or nations or cities, we might even be on the verge of / just finished with / wanting to go to war with them, but it's not always that your citizens would be outright banned from coming. There would be danger and suspicion and intrigue, but it's not like, 'Ok. Shot on sight if that mother fucker comes within spitting distance, got it?'

Just my two cents.

Haven

Rashar said:

@haven I have always wondered why it's like that.

In my eyes if you're going to have this black and white hostility thing, you just need to be at war. I think it would be so much more exciting to go walk through Bloodloch and get all those hungry stares and stalkers. Sure, you fight elsewhere. You might even fight -in- the city, and face whatever civil consequences that might draw. Jail, fines, bounties, whatever. I think we're so quick to enemy people here, and that's such a destroyer of RP opportunity.

I look at it like current times. Sure, we might not be friends with certain groups or nations or cities, we might even be on the verge of / just finished with / wanting to go to war with them, but it's not always that your citizens would be outright banned from coming. There would be danger and suspicion and intrigue, but it's not like, 'Ok. Shot on sight if that mother fucker comes within spitting distance, got it?'

Just my two cents.

Ehh... I don't think we should wander each other's cities whenever. I do agree that it does kill certain RP avenues with just enemying people from your city but it's not only logical to bar the gates to potential threats but necessary. Enemies or those who oppose your faction are real threats considering the amount of power a single player holds to city security.

That said, I would press that each faction venture out into the world more instead so that where city enemyship closes RP, they can counter it by making themselves available.

Unfortunately, I can't say I blame people for holing up in cities either considering there is really so little to do outside your own faction zone besides...bash or hunt for leylines.

Areka

I think the enemying culture is a product of people gaming the system - both gaming the system when it comes to hostilities and dropping pits at 4c or using novices as raiding points, as well as 'well when I honours them it doesn't say they're an enemy even though they're clearly of Ve'kahi so it shouldn't be an issue if I stick my willy in them.' Keeping a project with a list of all known names for people to reference is a bit onerus, and why I think having different levels of enemying would be helpful both to RP as well as the mechanic side (especially with Monuments and guards). Danger levels, so to speak. "Oh, he's a red level offender, kill on sight." "They're just a yellow level offender, the guards won't let them be hidden in the city and might follow them around." etc.

Edit: Continued thought, but could be interesting if at least Eno's guards had diff. parameters for how they kept people out automatically. Visibly undead would get barred at the get go, but visibly living people (giving mechanical purpose to masquerading and even possibly creating some conflict within the Undead - is it shameful to hide your state?), further limited by if Guards have been given your name directly for being an aggressive offender.

Rashar

That's not bad, @areka.

Here's the way I see it, and granted this is all my noob level what iffery, discounting game mechanics completely.

What purpose do militias serve? Security ministry, even? It's meh level involvement at best, from everything I've seen.

What if there was something for them to do, i.e. "Willie Joe just wandered into the city, the guards gave the alert." Now you can assign player guards, shadows. Gives them something to do, a reason for actually joining that particular (mini?) org, a reason for promotion other than, 'Hey I fought in enough lessers to accrue 5024 merit points, and I also offered 50k gold.' Both players get to RP.

Obviously, we're not letting @ezalor in. Not that we would anyway, he's a big ol' jerkface. And honestly, I can see a place like Eno being much stricter than, say, Bloodloch. Why would they -want- to keep what they consider prey out? Eno is the one worried about people being corrupted, or what have you. But until a proven -threat-, why not, as Areka said, let them in with observation? Ok, so there will be.. gasp, raids, maybe? Conflict, if someone comes in and starts some drama?

I feel like we do our best to avoid those things while also complaining that there aren't enough of them.

Areka

Raids in themselves aren't the issue, it's people making them about grief and lulz which then deters others from wanting to participate (when we had 14 people in the Templar GH that one time, before they changed how training rooms work in regards to enemies, or when there were 9-10 people camped at the Master Crystal draining it when like, one Ascendril and one or two combatants around, or taking advantage of a player's dormancy with camping in their house, etc - these are the majority in raids I've experienced, rather than the exception).

Rashar

It seems like with the number of times I've heard of master crystal issues being pure grief, that whole mechanic could just be removed. Not like any of the RP that involves it requires it to function that way.

But we're getting down specific rabbit holes now anyway. Ah, well. It'd be neat, anyway.

Haven

Good points all around. Unfortunately, the current format mechanically doesn't allow for much wiggle room.

Alice

@Damonicus - Though yes I'm aided to them, I haven't seen either except Ashmer briefly (think our times don't mesh) so its still kind of iffy to me but I'm hopeful it will slowly start coming to together in that way.

It's mostly a footing thing more than a refusal to do things outside the city though, I haven't really established Alice to a point where I'm secure enough to (i'm extremely shy usually, It might become awkward).

I can't really speak for everyone else on why most don't initiate some conflict/interesting RP between two orgs which consistently conflict; personally this would be hard to do, though, inside someone's city as everyone RPs differently. (While Tom might be okay with this RP, Dan isn't and will enemy on sight.) It would be very difficult for everyone to be on the same page without a sense of context from the get-go or a loophole in everyone's city laws enemies could work around without abusing it.

Omei

Shyness can be a problem for the discontented roleplayer, and unfortunately it's up to you to overcome it.

You have to remember that we're all regular ol' people behind our screens and keyboards, and that throwing an emote at someone is never an imposition. You have a character with motives, wants, and fears. Even if it's just a lame excuse like "oh sorry, I bumped into you", all you have to do is get your foot in the door, then let those motives/wants/fears take over.

Areka

I enjoy breaking the ice with flexing demonstrations.

Toz

Areka said:

Raids in themselves aren't the issue, it's people making them about grief and lulz which then deters others from wanting to participate (when we had 14 people in the Templar GH that one time, before they changed how training rooms work in regards to enemies, or when there were 9-10 people camped at the Master Crystal draining it when like, one Ascendril and one or two combatants around, or taking advantage of a player's dormancy with camping in their house, etc - these are the majority in raids I've experienced, rather than the exception).

I have fond memories of that Templar GH raid. I got yelled at for taking the target out of room until they realized what I actually did (pulled them out and KILLED THEM with damage from the pull so they actually died). And then there was no more yelling, only praise.

Haven

Alice said:

@Damonicus - Though yes I'm aided to them, I haven't seen either except Ashmer briefly (think our times don't mesh) so its still kind of iffy to me but I'm hopeful it will slowly start coming to together in that way.

It's mostly a footing thing more than a refusal to do things outside the city though, I haven't really established Alice to a point where I'm secure enough to (i'm extremely shy usually, It might become awkward).

I can't really speak for everyone else on why most don't initiate some conflict/interesting RP between two orgs which consistently conflict; personally this would be hard to do, though, inside someone's city as everyone RPs differently. (While Tom might be okay with this RP, Dan isn't and will enemy on sight.) It would be very difficult for everyone to be on the same page without a sense of context from the get-go or a loophole in everyone's city laws enemies could work around without abusing it.

Personally, I think it'd be better all around to come up with ways to venture and congregate OUTSIDE a city as opposed to luring people IN. But yeah, I agree.

Zsadist

So, let me start off by saying that yes, I agree with most of you that there is a severe lack of conflict within Aetolia, but its only because most people either idle, ignore, or completely disregard those who do try to start conflict. Me and a few others have tried to get some groups together to perform raids, but no one ever answers. There is no way to actually start a 'war' between the feuding cities of BL/Enorian. Sure, we can all posture and say stuff to incite each other, but even with shouts going, those "conflicts" only last for all of 30 minutes... if that.

Overall, there is no conflict because no one seems to want to be labeled as "that guy who started a war". Thats my perspective at least. Also, the reason no one seems to want that label, is because then you get griefed and slaughtered by roughly 5-10 people from the same city for the same reason of "insert war comment here".

EDIT: Personally, I'd have no problem going into Enorian and slaughtering a few guards, but if no one wants to join me in making some sort of chaos/conflict, why should I even bother?

Alice

I do think a lot of it is the idling/disregard for involvement in general (unless you have an ability/way to find people to get up in their face that is hehe) since I've tried dabbling (apprehensively!) in some parts w/o response. Conflict or no.

Haven

Zsadist said:

So, let me start off by saying that yes, I agree with most of you that there is a severe lack of conflict within Aetolia, but its only because most people either idle, ignore, or completely disregard those who do try to start conflict. Me and a few others have tried to get some groups together to perform raids, but no one ever answers. There is no way to actually start a 'war' between the feuding cities of BL/Enorian. Sure, we can all posture and say stuff to incite each other, but even with shouts going, those "conflicts" only last for all of 30 minutes... if that.

Overall, there is no conflict because no one seems to want to be labeled as "that guy who started a war". Thats my perspective at least. Also, the reason no one seems to want that label, is because then you get griefed and slaughtered by roughly 5-10 people from the same city for the same reason of "insert war comment here".

EDIT: Personally, I'd have no problem going into Enorian and slaughtering a few guards, but if no one wants to join me in making some sort of chaos/conflict, why should I even bother?

That's a symptom. The main issue is that should RP or whatever ever escalate to that level, it can ultimately be ignored by either side because there is no conflict resolution avenue for it.

The removal of the war system gutted all large scale conflict. Unfortunately, Ylem isn't the answer either because quite frankly, if a city really wanted to, they could sit out of it for at least a RL month since the stockpile is so high. And on top of that, they could theoretically just ignore ylem as a whole if they didn't care about the bashing and quality of life buffs.

I mean, I can only imagine how the villains must feel when they go to instigate something and the other side merely ignores them and doesn't even acknowledge them. And when they do, how do you measure success/failure in the resolution? Most deaths? I mean what can you really do...

The only large scale resolution left for organizations are between Orders and Ylem. >_> I must just be bitter though so take my words with a grain of salt. That's how I view things anyway.

Minarael

Haven said:

Who is to say there can't be some sort of relationship between Enorian and Bloodloch too outside of ignoring each other until a lesser/World Event crops up?

I'd love to see some creative ways for the two opposing sides to interact that didn't necessarily degenerate into outright violence.

Because literally every time anyone tries to have anything beyond violence, twelve people in Enorian throw a fit about it, regardless of the reason behind the interaction. Kind of hard to sway darkies back to the light if you can't do anything but shove a sword in their gullet.

Daskalos

Can you provide the names of these 12 Enorian people that throw a fit, or is that just rhetoric meant to disparage an entire swath of the playerbase?

Edit to clarify: If someone is trying to convert someone, or whatever, next to no one has a problem with it. We don't really police our own people, as there's no leg to stand on. Some of the guilds do, but that's up to the guild and its a 'you know what you signed up for' in that guild. If you want to go sleep with a vampire as a Luminary, we're going to have a problem with it. If you're just trying to convert someone? A lot less so. Go, talk to them, show them what we're about.

Enorian is pretty friendly towards novices, and the Luminaries in particular novices are a high priority and we work our asses off helping kids out, and it pays off in both novice retention and is reflected by our consistent topguild score. But, to say '12 Enorian people' throw a fit every time you try to RP is a bunch of malarkey, and it annoys me intensely to see someone throw out a statement like that, that ridicules what we do. Even Haven's comment about 'I'd like to see Enorian' irks me, because Haven's not in Enorian. Maybe we like the way our city is, maybe we -like- the way things are going and don't need you to tell us how to enjoy the game.

Minarael

I don't exactly keep a store of names. But there are a number of recent events I can point to. Are you really arguing that when someone is found 'consorting' with a Bloodlochian, everyone lets it go?

My character very recently was interacting with a Templar in Delos. The interaction was entirely what you'd expect from non-violent interaction between a Templar and a vampire. She was being challenged on her belief and trying to paint a picture for us of the benefits of being in the light. What happens? Orders to return back to the city promptly and stop interacting with dirty vampires.

Lets note that part of the Templar crede is to save people lost to the darkness, through either violence -OR- guidance. Conversion. You can't do that without non-violent RP.

As Ayaeva, I watched that happen numerous times. It's a large part of why I disliked playing in Enorian. One of the most notable examples was a little baby Syssin who was parked at Four Corners. We were interacting with the newb, conversion related RP. Newb was doing literally nothing threatening and was 18 -and- was clearly there to drum up RP. Instead of a thoughtful response, Enorian just enemied it and tossed it out the city. That's a clear opportunity for conversion RP wasted. Even if it went nowhere, we could have attempted.

I could keep going, and I am usually a hermit. I am absolutely positive that anyone who has interacted with Enorian has seen the same, repeatedly.

I even brought this up in character, that Enorian was stifling the opportunity to convert with its hardline stance and basically got told I didn't know what Enorian's purpose was and there was no reason we should be bothering.

This is a HUGE reason why I don't play Ayaeva anymore, because she was created for the purpose of conversion RP and it's really just not worth mucking about with it for the force of response that emerges from such things.

Daskalos

But that's Enorian's role. Just recently, the Syssin used a newbie to break into my house, that wasn't enemied (Hi, Liara!). People are enemied to Enorian because that is what's in our laws, and not once has a stance been taken by citizens to change the laws. Your orders to come back to the city might of come from the Templars, but they didn't come from Enorian. If you have a problem with the way a guild operates, then fine. But don't lump all of us in as 'Enorian' if one or two guilds does something you don't like. Enorian has no association laws, so if you were ordered back, that was your guild, not Enorian.

As for the enemying at 4C... that's a product of player behavior on -your- side of the game that lead to that attitude. One too many newbie alts that served as a portal point and now the stance is taken. I'd also like to point out that -Bloodloch- enemies everyone as well, but you're not bitching about them. Which is it?

Seir

Strange. Enorian did not used to be like that, but I've seen symptoms of this happening in other games. It actually happens when conflict becomes the mainstay behind such actions. People begin to loathe/dislike players on the other side for whatever reason and a divide occurs and creates the Team Red vs Team Blue mentality where interacting with the other side is viewed as a betrayal or worse. Granted, this isn't true for everyone I'm sure, but it happened on Achaea and Lusternia so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened here because of lesser conflicts or people just being bitter on both sides. Either that, or it's paranoia of someone possibly using that 18-year old to infiltrate and find a weakness in an organization in order to raid it. It was done, unfortunately, a few times to Duiran in the past where an 18-year old Sciomancer walked into old Duiran and found an unlocked home of a dormant player and then everyone exploited that and raided.

Speaking from personal experience, I had absolutely no qualms from interacting with players from Spinesreach and did on a regular basis. Probably still would despite the enemy status as my character does have some history with the organization. I've been completely soured from interacting with most from Bloodloch due to actions from characters like Cariv, Lyl, and Clouser. I'm aware that those three no longer play, but having dealt with a lot of harassment both on an IC/OOC level, it has pretty much made me never want to interact with some folks from those organizations. Enorian may feel the same in some regards towards certain people from Bloodloch and I'm sure the same is vice versa as I've heard from darkies that we have players who are guilty of just the same and it's the same names at that.

Point is, regardless of conflict, I think the most important thing for everyone to realize is that every player regardless of where they choose to play is just another person behind the monitor, like you, whose ultimate goal is to enjoy themselves and have a nice time when they play. When conflict begins to evolve into enmity, harassment, or outright rejection of roleplay with the other side because of paranoia or resentment, Aetolia begins to lose what sets it apart from the rest of IRE: Maturity and a rich role play environment.

Minarael

I've also listened to Enorian have multiple conversations about this same topic on CT. So yes, it is Enorian. Perhaps not every single individual in Enorian, but the culture of Enorian. I don't feel like debating it for the next five days though. You are welcome to believe what you like.

Daskalos

You find me the law in Enorian that says don't talk to the enemy, and I'll concede the point. And you completely ignored, once again, the fact that Bloodloch enemies everyone. Heck, I was originally enemied to Spinesreach as 'he might be a threat one day'.

Rashar

Not true. @daskalos was enemied to Spinesreach because he smelled so bad, even they couldn't stand him.

Omei

I'm not stopping you guys, but I'm reminding you that if this doesn't stay productive/meaningful, it'll be cut off.

Serrice

Laws aren't necessary when societal pressures dictate otherwise. It's kind of a bad argument to hide behind, really. For example, there is no law against adultery in several polities, but it's still something where there's cultural and society stigma against it all the same.

Minarael argues the same point, by claiming that the player/character culture of Enorian is one that shuns and rejects any sort of non-violent interaction with people of the other side, regardless of association laws or official sanction.

As for the point of enemy status, she ignores it because it's not relevant to her argument. 'Bloodloch enemies everyone' is a fallacy of relevance. So what if they do? It really has no bearings on what she's talking about, which is a perceived cultural bias amongst players of Enorian of interacting with the other side.

Finally, to commit a fallacy of relevance of my own, I've found Bloodloch and Spinesreach are rather good about interacting with members of the other side, enemy status or not. They don't seem to have anything against chumming with folks on the other side.

Ishin

Daskalos said:

But that's Enorian's role. Just recently, the Syssin used a newbie to break into my house, that wasn't enemied (Hi, Liara!). People are enemied to Enorian because that is what's in our laws, and not once has a stance been taken by citizens to change the laws. Your orders to come back to the city might of come from the Templars, but they didn't come from Enorian. If you have a problem with the way a guild operates, then fine. But don't lump all of us in as 'Enorian' if one or two guilds does something you don't like. Enorian has no association laws, so if you were ordered back, that was your guild, not Enorian.

As for the enemying at 4C... that's a product of player behavior on -your- side of the game that lead to that attitude. One too many newbie alts that served as a portal point and now the stance is taken. I'd also like to point out that -Bloodloch- enemies everyone as well, but you're not bitching about them. Which is it?

I just wanted to point out that we did not use an unenemied Syssin noob(@Liara) to break into your house, @Daskalos. We did it via another way.

Faerah

Ishin said:

I just wanted to point out that we did not use an unenemied Syssin noob(@Liara) to break into your house, @Daskalos. We did it via another way.

QFT.

Tina

While there is no law, it does seem to be the standard enforced by a lot of the ingrained leaders in Enorian. I can recall an incident not to long ago, but before you were vanguard @Daskalos where myself and Moirean met with the ruling council of Enorian. Spines was setting up a world embassy for all cities to meet at, express grievances, and have like an embassy in the darkness to preach and try and convert people from in our very heart. We were told by the entire council in pretty blunt terms, that people from Enorian will never associate with Spinesreach and the darkness for any reason, they aren't here to convert, they only exist to destroy and kill all of us misguided souls till we repent. Members of Enorian aren't allowed to hang out in Spinesreach, or with undead. Other typical lines and insults inserted here. Through violence alone. And this was the entire ruling council of the city telling us this.

Now granted this was right before you returned, and you may not have agreed with the stance they took. But this action is what led to the change in our policy to enemy all Enorian leadership to the city from this point on. And on @Minarael this apparently did bring up lots of discussions in Enorian about this. You can say you don't support the violence against all of the undead and nothing else, but you don't stand against members of the city who take that stance. In fact that stance is encourage and rewarded alot of the time, so it does send a message. Now we aren't here to tell you how to run the city, or how it should function. But I think we've all seen the problem being described in interactions when we've tried none violent resolutions with Enorian.