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Serrice

Duiran has a fine tradition of boning Spireans. I'm sure they'll be alright.

Daskalos

Association laws are something that can be discussed in game, as they are very much a part of the game and no amount of forum campaigning will change -that- particular stance. If you want interaction, there are less offensive ways to do it (see: Kerryn's tavern in Delos), but that's all based on roleplay. Enorian probably won't ban it outright, but it's already been banned for Luminaries, but not because of the sex\raunchiness.

Haven

In all honesty, Lighters as players, ought to embrace this sort of establishment because it means there's now another place for drama/conflict. You can hold RP rallies outside of the place booing it down. You could wander in and hiss at the people there and try to usher them to more respectable places (like Enorian's Temple district or something). Hell, you can be a hypocrite and try to secretly(or openly) indulge in the place. The RP potential is nearly endless...

Just remember your actions have consequences.

Alee

Association laws are just that. They are city based, and if a player is caught there then the city can handle it. We all know people have broken the laws before and its handled case by case. I do like the idea of parking Alee outside the place and telling people they shouldn't go in

Haven

"Yes, @Alee! These people are wretched indeed. Guard this door and warn the good people. I will...*cough* enter and see that nothing too nefarious is going on. The Light must touch all darkness!"

xD Oh, this could be lots of fun.

Daskalos

I'm not opposed to a brothel (even if I think none of them belong in the game, players push limits further than a mob ever will like in Huanazedha). I don't like it being in such a public post that novices could run into it, as I think it sends entirely the wrong message forward. One of my newbies, who is promising and has stuck around and is really cool, had an incident almost immediately about being propositioned for mudsex. This person asked me 'is this that type of MUD?' and I told her it wasn't.

Fast forward, and I could be having that same conversation, but add in "then why is there a brothel in Delos?".  Huanazedha is out of the way, people have to seek it out. It's not one of the most frequently traveled places in the game, which is why I have a problem with it. Also, @Alee, fun fact, Enorian has never had Association laws. They've always been guild based.

Lim

Daskalos said:

I'm not opposed to a brothel (even if I think none of them belong in the game, players push limits further than a mob ever will like in Huanazedha). I don't like it being in such a public post that novices could run into it, as I think it sends entirely the wrong message forward. One of my newbies, who is promising and has stuck around and is really cool, had an incident almost immediately about being propositioned for mudsex. This person asked me 'is this that type of MUD?' and I told her it wasn't.

Fast forward, and I could be having that same conversation, but add in "then why is there a brothel in Delos?".  Huanazedha is out of the way, people have to seek it out. It's not one of the most frequently traveled places in the game, which is why I have a problem with it. Also, @Alee, fun fact, Enorian has never had Association laws. They've always been guild based.

The right answer would be to say, 'No, this is not that type of MUD, but we have the mechanics to allow quite a wide range of player-driven free play so long as it fits within the theme and lore of the Aetolian world. The brothel is player-run, but its owners and employees made the deliberate choice to make it more about the brothel roles (think performers, madams, prostitutes, clients) than it is about the sex and descriptive emotes and a place where people RL can get their wank off.'

It's a pretty fair question to ask 'is this that sort of MUD', given they'd been just propositioned crudely by some-dude. This is probably because there are cybersex MUDs out there, and it is an established sub-genre. However, just say 'No, it isn't. But we have pretty high aspirations and standards for RP, and the brothel is something that players came together to do in a mature way, with standards'. And then go on to talk about the amazing RP opportunities that arise from the brothel's context. Picketing, evangelising, corruption.. I agree with @haven that the opportunities are really rich! It's the perfect opportunity to sell and introduce a big part of Aetolian's attractiveness - the RP culture - to noobs.

Emelle

I don't think one player-monitored brothel in a game with an enforced PG-13 rating is going to suddenly turn Aetolia into "one of those games." If newbies have questions, give them honest answers. A reasonable person isn't going to quit the game over it.

Haven

Lim said:

Daskalos said:

I'm not opposed to a brothel (even if I think none of them belong in the game, players push limits further than a mob ever will like in Huanazedha). I don't like it being in such a public post that novices could run into it, as I think it sends entirely the wrong message forward. One of my newbies, who is promising and has stuck around and is really cool, had an incident almost immediately about being propositioned for mudsex. This person asked me 'is this that type of MUD?' and I told her it wasn't.

Fast forward, and I could be having that same conversation, but add in "then why is there a brothel in Delos?".  Huanazedha is out of the way, people have to seek it out. It's not one of the most frequently traveled places in the game, which is why I have a problem with it. Also, @Alee, fun fact, Enorian has never had Association laws. They've always been guild based.

It's the perfect opportunity to sell and introduce a big part of Aetolian's attractiveness - the RP culture - to noobs.

I completely agree with your post and wanted to highlight this. With this establishment in place, all 'good' aligned organizations are presented with a unique opportunity to counter this place and generate even more RP. Duiran has their campfire thing. Enorian has a Temple district that they can use this establishment to highlight and even a museum spot or something. Bloodloch has... Well the possibilities are all there!

Nalor

I think the point is WHERE its being held, DELOS is a newbie place where newbies go to join a new guild etc, If it was say in Hashan, or another place not so public no one would be saying anything.

But 60% of the time a novice, new player to the game, is going to wonder into it by mistake and think WTF....

Minarael

Newbies are asked to select a guild in the introduction and get shipped to their guild's city. 

There isn't a whole lot of reason for newbies to go wander Delos initially except for the quest to drop the crate off with Sethrin at the entrance. 

Newbies getting propositioned for sex is a lot more likely to happen outside of this particular brothel than in it. 

Overall, being upset about sexy things still amuses me in a game in which you have incredibly detailed, graphical mechanics for torture and violent murder.

Daskalos

Certimene... Kalinda.... shopping....

Iosyne

It seems @Minarael beat me to the punch, but yes. Newbies currently select their guild/city in the introduction (using the website client) and they are dropped into the city as opposed to the beach in the Eastern Wilderness. They are permitted to freely change classes while they are still in the Academy, without needing to visit Certimene. There is now also an NPC in Bloodloch's Alcazar who can perform Kelende's functions. 

Overall, the push we are making with the newbie experience is to make their storyline more closely-tied to their home city, as you will begin to see with the revamped newbie areas. This doesn't mean that Delos isn't a traffickway for newbies, but it is far less so now than it used to be.

Nalor

Minarael said:

Newbies are asked to select a guild in the introduction and get shipped to their guild's city. 

There isn't a whole lot of reason for newbies to go wander Delos initially except for the quest to drop the crate off with Sethrin at the entrance. 

THE PORTALS lead them to Delos .. .So since when don't novices go to delos @Minarael,

Point being is it shouldn't be in a 'City' of sorts it should be out of the way where only them WISHING to find it, will find it unless you ask around. Not a place you'll accidently stumble into while trying to shop.

Haven

@Iosyne: Please to make Delos be on a rise for a merchant empire! >> And allow player allegiance stuff if not outright join as a city.

Eleanor

I think you guys are all really overestimating how much people actually use Delos.

Also the creepy propositioning, in my experience (every now and then I alt and trip over a creeper accidentally) happens on a one-to-one, targeted basis. The presence or non-presence of a brothel isn't going to affect this at all.

Heck, it should also be noted that Moirean's doing this tastefully, she's not going to have signs everywhere saying XXX LIVE GIRLS, GET YOUR ROCKS OFF OVER HERE or anything. Let's consider the proportion of newbies who would be:
A: going to Delos and not shopping first in their home city (not an overwhelming proportion if we're talking about people who are really just starting out)
B: doing much else than just looking at WARES if they are shopping (are they there to shop or not? When you're shopping and you walk into a room that doesn't have that nice yellow WARES text, you walk straight out again.)
C: reading descriptions of rooms which will not be labeled "A blatantly slutty whorehouse" (and if they are reading descriptions, they are probably dedicated enough to understand that this RP will only be sleazy if they go looking for that)

Iosyne

Haven said:

Iosyne: Please to make Delos be on a rise for a merchant empire! >> And allow player allegiance stuff if not outright join as a city.

@Haven - Delos has seen a lot of improvements over the years. The Sect Hall (should it ever finish completion) will be a very fascinating and coveted addition. I also have a pet project in the distant future involving the Fellowship of the Unspoken which will have some ties into Delos and a few other villages.

Jensen

Nalor said:

Minarael said:

Newbies are asked to select a guild in the introduction and get shipped to their guild's city. 

There isn't a whole lot of reason for newbies to go wander Delos initially except for the quest to drop the crate off with Sethrin at the entrance. 

THE PORTALS lead them to Delos .. .So since when don't novices go to delos @Minarael,

Point being is it shouldn't be in a 'City' of sorts it should be out of the way where only them WISHING to find it, will find it unless you ask around. Not a place you'll accidently stumble into while trying to shop.

Who hasn't been propositioned for sex in the noob portals?  They're worse than the brothel could ever be because who cares about losing a newbie mudsex alt.

Daskalos

It's not the mudsex alts I worry about, it's the ones that aren't interested, or are underage, and are exposed to that right off the bat.

Rashar

Come on, people.

As long as newbies stay away from certain statuesque fellers in Duiran, they're -probably- safe from proposition.

Jensen

@Dask that's what I mean though.  I was like 14 when I was propositioned in the portals and it's happened quite a few times on many of my new characters

Minarael

Having made a ridiculous number of alts, I feel pretty confident in saying there is little reason for a true newb to end up in Delos and a lot more risk from random creepers than from a brothel existing in the game somewhere. Even if it's near Delos.

Lin

Daskalos said:

It's not the mudsex alts I worry about, it's the ones that aren't interested, or are underage, and are exposed to that right off the bat.

I could go shrivel a newbie a few times and then vivisect him and expose him to some pretty unsavory stuff right there on the spot. Should we rewrite our combat skills and things too?

That's what I love about vivisect - it's probably one of the worst things we have in the game.

Phoenecia

It's kind of amusing, and it's something that's a habit among moral guardians too. When it comes to violence, no one seems to bat an eye, or if they do, it pales in comparison to anything involving sex. I'd be more worried about the violence as that has more of an effect on other people as opposed to mudsex, which is usually kept private and out of the way. No one complains about depictions of slavery, or torture, or murder, or gore, or violence citing it as the atmosphere of the game. A brothel can be dark, gritty, and compelling in a world explicitly called the Midnight Age, and suddenly that's not okay?

Minarael

The graphic depiction of brutality is more disturbing than the sex that occurs in these games, to me. And we almost have a competition going for who can RP the most incredibly gruesome stuff. We have characters whose descriptions legit make my stomach churn. But god forbid we acknowledge folks occasionally get down somewhere. This has -always- baffled me. 

Anyway, since I was posting from my phone previously, I want to expand on the newbie-free zone that Delos is now. 

I have a stupid number of alts, most of them are young still. When you create a new character in the game right now, you are forced to pick a class and it automatically selects a city for you. When you leave the intro, you are pushed towards your home city, not to Delos. It's INCREDIBLY easy to find the local shopping center, not that most new characters need it because of the Academy which hands out all the essentials you need when you are just getting started. It's easier to get tattoos from guild/city mates than from Delos because the cost is prohibitive to newbs. Even then, our games are HUGE and can be intimidating to explore too deeply when you are just getting started, particularly with all the warnings when you step into non-newb areas you get under 30 right now. 

Moirean is doing something I've been planning on doing (and was about to release shortly) anyway, with the burlesque/performance end of it. My plans don't include a brothel, but will be situated near to Delos. The player I've been planning this with and I had discussions about how our shows would be perceived by the general playerbase. It's interesting to see the responses to this thread. Some of the knee-jerk I'd expected, but it is not as -much- as I expected. Kind of good to see, really.

Areka

Think the 'noobs might wander in' thing could be solved with a nifty special entrance with a password or handshake or something, which could also be neat. 

Covering your mouth with a hand to screen it from view, you lean in towards the brothel's large door and whisper, "Titular." With a creak of wood, the door swings open to allow you entrance, beckoned inward with the scents of musk and perfume. 

Setne

For anyone who hasn't seen Winter Soldier(which should be no one)[spoiler]

Areka said:

Covering your mouth with a hand to screen it from view, you lean in towards the brothel's large door and whisper, "Hail Hydra." With a creak of wood, the door swings open to allow you entrance, beckoned inward with the scents of musk and perfume. 

[/spoiler]

Daskalos

	TEEN Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.
	MATURE Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

We've always gone for teen is my thing -- if we're going for mature, then that's fine, it's just a shift. Language rules can be relaxed, et cetera.

Aarbrok

The ESRB ratings for "video' games also hold this disclaimer, under the ONLINE use of games.

"Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB" - Warns those who intend to play the game online about possible exposure to chat (text, audio, video) or other types of user-generated content (e.g., maps, skins) that have not been considered in the ESRB rating assignment

Aita

"May contain intense violence, blood and gore."

That's not teen. But that's what our combat skills are.