Org Leadership

Eleanor

I think Moi's frustration stems from a feeling of unfairness. DISCLAIMER: I agree that it's in the administration's best interest to make the game fun all over, so helping struggling orgs is a no-brainer.

The feeling of unfairness though, I think, is coming from the way that the stuff that goes on with Spines, the Carnifex, etc, takes work. People are spending gold and credits, and spending hours writing new things without any promise of pay or reward beyond 'hey you made a cool thing'. They are busting their arses to make the coolness. And it pays off! Spinesreach is really cool and we did it with our own hands.

Then we look over at Org X, who seem to be mostly full of apathetic people, or people who aren't willing to go to the lengths and stresses (and it is stress, nobody here can say that putting all that effort into a pretendy funtime game as an org leader, just to make it a bit more fun, mostly for others, is not a stress when we all have lives and etc) that people in our org are, and we see them getting cool things which either look suspiciously like the cool things we busted arse to make, or are cool things that don't seem to really have been worked for and are dropped on them to make their org better.

Is is unreasonable to improve weaker parts of the game? No. Does it feel unfair that the hard-workers get less attention because what they're doing is working and there's more critical zones to pay attention to? Yes.

That's what I get out of Moi's arguments, anyway.

Maghak

To be blunt, the purpose of administrative patronage is not to reward players for choosing to take up org leadership. Doing so is entirely up to the individual player, and as has been established earlier in the thread and the one before this one, having an ear to talk into to receive unique things for your org is a bonus. 

The only way it would be unfair for us to give struggling orgs our time would be if our time was something to be earned or rewarded with. It isn't an entitlement you get for choosing to pursue a post as head of an org. Ultimately the goal of both administrators and hopefully player leaders is to make the game fun for everyone involved, which means groups that cannot maintain player interest by themselves need other incentives. That's the long and the short of it.

Raeche

I'm thinking of in terms of meritocracy and welfare. (Disclaimer: this analogy does not represent real life.)

Person A works ass off, becomes super duper rich and successful, but the Government spends most of its time and money giving handouts to poor people who could have been just as successful as person A if they had just put in the effort. 

Of course Person A is pissed. But of course, the Government should be helping the poor.

At the same time, Person A is saying that by helping the weaker ones, it disincentivises him to work hard.

[We can also think of it in terms of socialism and why it leads to inefficiencies (the disenfranchisement of the hardworking).]

All I'm saying it's a conundrum, and each has its valid points. What matters though, is that we all understand each side and empathise that everyone's trying to make the game a bit better.

Maghak

I didn't know Ayn Rand was an Aetolian org leader! Our player standards have really slipped.

Daskalos

And yet, I find that very viewpoint to be incredibly insulting. Moirean is not the only leader that works. I work, Ezalor works, Xavin works. The Luminaries and Enorian are rocking pretty hard right now (check topguilds, we've been in the top 3 every day for almost a month now --above-- the Carnifex).

I certainly don't get upset when Spinesreach gets cool things like a fountain that gives out alcohol or whatever.  I don't take it as some sort of personal sleight, but I do take it as a personal sleight that because we got some divine attention someone else feels it's unfair. Step off your high horse, every org thinks they're the best, every org has people that work, and no one org deserves more attention than another. 

Aarbrok

I can only attest to specific facts from the Organizations I have been in, and I think from a volunteers standpoint, having an engaging reaction to things taking place, positive and with minimal interference to the flow of whatever Roleplay it may be.

I cant fathom being a volunteer in this community, I would tear my hair out personally, and I think some of our Volunteers could potentially feel that at times, I think we should always consider these are players as well, working to help us out, they feel just as we feel...

If anything lets be happy they want to do anything at all.

..and thank you to those who do.

Toz

...Because beating Carnifex class' natural allure is a difficult challenge. If half (actually well over half) of the people who played the guild/bought credits/pk'd hadn't quit the guild or the game, I'm pretty sure we'd be doing alright ourselves on topguilds, for whatever that measures.

@Eleanor has the right of it, though. Is it 'fair'? Maybe. Is it frustrating? Probably so. Is there something that can be done? Just keeping in mind the awesome orgs sometimes like to play with shiny stuff too. From my own perspective, it doesn't matter much. I don't get out much anyway - but there's something undeniably *better* about an admin-run event complete with shiny stuff (honors lines, some new mob, whatever) than anything a player can do, because it's going to happen, going to have 100% support, etc. I've been a part of 2-3 player-run things that fell apart because admin couldn't be there to support or whatever, and that kinda sucks. And 1 of those things was a massive, several month-long build up that apparently got forgotten about/nobody else knew/who knows what that resulted in a rather abrupt, unfortunate puff of 'surprise you failed' smoke instead of anything meaningful. So all this rambling to say this: shiny stuff's nice sometimes, even if things are shiny anyway.

Daskalos

But you're ignoring the fact that you -have- gotten shinies before. You -have- gotten divine attention. Spinesreach got cool guards before anyone else, you have FRED, you've had numerous big cultural events that the mobs participated in, you've still got the only booze fountain I've heard of. But, hey, someone else got something and that's not OK, because Spinesreach is the cool kids and everyone else shouldn't get what the cool kids have. No Nikes for  you, kiddo, go shop at Wal-mart.

Because, deep down, it doesn't feel like you're saying 'you gave them our idea' it feels like you're saying 'you're inferior players and you don't DESERVE what we get'. And I find that incredibly insulting.

Oleis

To borrow a phrase from my students, I am "LITERALLY OVER" this thread.

Here's the deal. Just like every other concept in Aetolia, org leadership comes with its own inherent set of biases and tendencies. We have to filter out the stuff that irritates us, temper the things that we know are overblown, and dig for the nugget of value and sincerity. Moirean is very much a self-starter. She winds things up in her organizations and we get a message along the lines of "Can you support this thing we did/are doing?" Very often the answer is yes! That's neat! Sometimes it's a little presumptuous. But it works because she works, and she doesn't take offense if we can't run with something she's done.

Other orgs fall in the middle. "Can you help us do this thing [in the future]?" Sometimes it needs fleshing out, sometimes it's awesome, sometimes it's really not something we can do.

Other orgs run great but are helpless when it comes to interacting with a Divine. "DO SOMETHING FOR ME". A reasonable request, in theory, but far less likely to get the original, collaborative results that the first two examples get.

And, unfortunately, all of this can be doomed if an Immortal volunteer has to vanish. Or a player doesn't deliver on their part of the bargain. Or new, gamewide plans materialize that supersede whatever the org is trying to do. But my point is that you can't get both sides of the coin. You either steer the conversation or you get what you get.

Eleanor

Y'know I think between the explanations of THE FEELS and the admin response, this thread's pretty much neatly bumped into its conclusion! Happy ending.

Xavin

I still feel like there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on somewhere. I'm sorry if people feel like their toes are being stepped on. But honestly, can you really say that you know for a fact that leaders of other orgs don't put themselves through stress trying to improve their orgs and do things for them? Because let me tell you right now - I and the other benandanti of duiran do put ourselves through a lot of stress trying to make our players happy, trying to find things to do that are engaging. It's bad enough that the majority of our players don't seem to respond all that well. But the worst thing? The worst thing is finding out that players in orgs that are doing better for one reason or another are getting upset because the admin have the audacity to do something for your struggling organization, that they think that you're apathetic and not doing anything.

Calipso

Daskalos said:

And yet, I find that very viewpoint to be incredibly insulting. Moirean is not the only leader that works. I work, Ezalor works, Xavin works. The Luminaries and Enorian are rocking pretty hard right now (check topguilds, we've been in the top 3 every day for almost a month now --above-- the Carnifex).

I certainly don't get upset when Spinesreach gets cool things like a fountain that gives out alcohol or whatever.  I don't take it as some sort of personal sleight, but I do take it as a personal sleight that because we got some divine attention someone else feels it's unfair. Step off your high horse, every org thinks they're the best, every org has people that work, and no one org deserves more attention than another. 

Oh god, dont remind me about that fountain...just such a bad idea and makes spines seem like a joke and its theme straight out the window. Sometimes I wonder who comes up with this stuff.

Also agreed, I have no idea why people are complaining as if they deserve some form of first class treatment in relation to other players. We are all (supposedly) on an equal basis as players. The whole basis of this thread seems silly and rather childish.

Aarbrok

I suppose remodeling it into a steampunk factory is right on theme?

Toz

I was going to be nice and not say anything, but I did kind of laugh hard.

Ingram

Shots fired.

Bigguns

Calipso

Aarbrok said:

I suppose remodeling it into a steampunk factory is right on theme?

Gee...what was that again about Sciomancers being remodeled into a more techno-mancer theme...

oh and Albedos introducing concepts of airships, constructs, and specialized bombs..

Nah I guess that is all just made of clay .


Oh and besides, why in the world would a 'City of Progress' ever want to go into a manufacturing field. That's just so off the rails. Introducing a fountain containing alcohol is right on the mark..

Personal attack removed. Play nice. ~ Maghak.

Alexina

I just wanted to chime in before this thread gets locked.

@Moirean:
You're awesome. You've done more for this game than most (if not all) other players ever have in terms of creating a fun, enjoyable atmosphere. I have nothing but respect and admiration for what you've done for the Carnifex and Spinesreach. While I do not really agree or sympathize with the general mindset you've seen to have taken in this thread, I still hope that you deep down realize that all the hard work and soul you pour into the game is far from meaningless. Because it really, really isn't.

In regards to leadership, admins, the Divines, etcetera:
Aetolia is the most vibrant and changeable mud I've ever had the pleasure to immerse myself in. While I am not playing as actively as I used to, I still feel qualified to say that players have huge, huge influence in regards to the game world when compared to pretty much any other adventuring/roleplaying game (MUDs or otherwise). To me, every little thing that an administrator or volunteer does to enhance the gaming experience - whether for just a single person or one of our many in-game communities - is a good and wonderful thing. I genuinely can not overstate this; we are really spoiled here, be super happy for the tools you've been given and cheer when something goods happen to someone else. Doesn't matter if they've done anything to deserve it or not because whatever they received probably made them really, really happy and happy players makes for a great foundation for these sort of games. Essentially, everyone wins, even if the other group won a bit more (because they received the shiny thing and you didn't).

Also: positive feedback should be given more often when you notice something good in the game. People generally only take the time to speak up when something bad happens. This is only natural. After all, we don't want the game to deteriorate. But. Telling people they've done a good job or that a particular thing made you enjoy Aetolia for the few hours you logged on today is also important. Not only does it let the other part know their efforts were succesful, but it also encourages them to continue doing good things for yourself and other people.

Maghak

Regarding the side topic that has sprung up, questions about relative tech levels are welcome in the lore thread. There are good reasons for the disparity to exist and people do not seem to quite grasp what Sapience-dwellers do and do not have access to.

Oleis

I agree with everything in @Alexina's post and I appreciate it very much. Especially the part about the thread being locked.