Org Leadership

Slyphe

This discussion was created from comments split from: Shop ownership.

Moirean

But that's my point - this game is about player relations. This is a more broad topic, but I admit to feeling rather frustrated when I put a lot of effort in to make my city or guild better and then I see admin helping out other orgs when they don't invest the same amount of energy. You should be able to make your org stand out and offer a better quality of life to the members - be that through shops or activities or recognition or whatever - if you devote time and energy to it. If you do a lot to improve your org and then see admin offer similar things to other orgs, without them even thinking to ask for it, it really takes the wind out of your sails and unfairly equalizes things. 

Haven

Moirean said:

But that's my point - this game is about player relations. This is a more broad topic, but I admit to feeling rather frustrated when I put a lot of effort in to make my city or guild better and then I see admin helping out other orgs when they don't invest the same amount of energy. You should be able to make your org stand out and offer a better quality of life to the members - be that through shops or activities or recognition or whatever - if you devote time and energy to it. If you do a lot to improve your org and then see admin offer similar things to other orgs, without them even thinking to ask for it, it really takes the wind out of your sails and unfairly equalizes things. 

Organizations should be about the ideals and the RP. Not who has the least broken mechanic.

Edit: The exception would be flavour mechanics. Like I thought it was really cool that the Carnifex got the whole gallows thing going on. A little sad that the Syssin are getting a copy of it as a class skill with noose. But meh, it's not an earthshattering or rolebreaking shift. Still plenty difference between the organizations thematically.

Moirean

Creating things for your orgs is a valid part of gameplay. Making your org a vibrant place with cool things is a valid part of gameplay. I don't see how one org spending effort where others don't is a broken mechanic - a large part of the game, especially for the leadership types, is building up your orgs and making them strong. Undercutting this by having admin/mechanics bolster the orgs that don't invest effort completely kills motivation for that sort of gameplay. Why bother knocking yourself out if the admin will give weaker orgs the same stuff anyways?

Anyways, this is all tangential. Suffice it to say, I don't think mechanics are needed to completely monitor/cover stuff. Give players more tools and we'll handle a lot of things - and many of us play Aetolia for the enjoyment that comes from doing that. Give us more shops and let us build org shops on org property and if orgs still don't offer a lot of range of supply, that's an IC, RP issue about how an org isn't supporting their members or encouraging their merchants.

In the same vein, really, why should shopkeepers who bust their butts to ensure their shops are stocked be knocked in their business by NPC merchants? I spend a lot of time ensuring that stuff remains consistently stocked - one big aspect of running an active, profitable shop is ensuring that stuff is there, often. If I slack off and don't keep vital stuff stocked, people stop coming there. I was gone for a few days and I instantly saw a dip in business. You have to basically earn customers through consistent service until they associate your shop in their mind as the go-to spot for certain stuff. I don't think it would be fun or fair to offer NPCs that do the same thing.

Haven

Moirean said:

Creating things for your orgs is a valid part of gameplay. Making your org a vibrant place with cool things is a valid part of gameplay. I don't see how one org spending effort where others don't is a broken mechanic - a large part of the game, especially for the leadership types, is building up your orgs and making them strong. Undercutting this by having admin/mechanics bolster the orgs that don't invest effort completely kills motivation for that sort of gameplay. Why bother knocking yourself out if the admin will give weaker orgs the same stuff anyways?

Anyways, this is all tangential. Suffice it to say, I don't think mechanics are needed to completely monitor/cover stuff. Give players more tools and we'll handle a lot of things - and many of us play Aetolia for the enjoyment that comes from doing that. Give us more shops and let us build org shops on org property and if orgs still don't offer a lot of range of supply, that's an IC, RP issue about how an org isn't supporting their members or encouraging their merchants.

There is a difference between flavor/cosmetic mechanics that help highlight an organization and a quality of life mechanic that makes gameplay better and more manageable. Making essential supplies available to everyone at all times is a good game design decision.

Oi...this is the class dispensing thread all over again. I'm bowing out of this discussion.

Edit to address your edit:

Moirean said:

In the same vein, really, why should shopkeepers who bust their butts to ensure their shops are stocked be knocked in their business by NPC merchants? I spend a lot of time ensuring that stuff remains consistently stocked - one big aspect of running an active, profitable shop is ensuring that stuff is there, often. If I slack off and don't keep vital stuff stocked, people stop coming there. I was gone for a few days and I instantly saw a dip in business. You have to basically earn customers through consistent service until they associate your shop in their mind as the go-to spot for certain stuff. I don't think it would be fun or fair to offer NPCs that do the same thing.

That is precisely why I said the NPC versions would have to be higher priced than player standard AND OR have poorer quality (decay time) of wares. This way there is incentive to choose player wares but should none be available for whatever reason there is still a means to get what you need. Relying on players 100% of the time for essential things is crap.

Daskalos

Moirean said:

But that's my point - this game is about player relations. This is a more broad topic, but I admit to feeling rather frustrated when I put a lot of effort in to make my city or guild better and then I see admin helping out other orgs when they don't invest the same amount of energy. You should be able to make your org stand out and offer a better quality of life to the members - be that through shops or activities or recognition or whatever - if you devote time and energy to it. If you do a lot to improve your org and then see admin offer similar things to other orgs, without them even thinking to ask for it, it really takes the wind out of your sails and unfairly equalizes things. 

I would counter and say that the administration's duty is to make the game as a whole the best for everyone, regardless of where the idea originated. Their loyalty is to the game, not to one specific org.

Moirean

I agree, but there needs to be some balance, or else you alienate players who put in effort to improve their orgs. IRE games are built heavily around player and org interaction and org leadership is a draw, a source of conflict and a source of engaging gameplay. Strong leaders create communities others want to be part of. If everything is made the same and you can't actually stand apart through bettering your org, that's really offputting.

For example, I was searching for a way to really highlight org members who were an asset and involved and after a flurry of planning and writing up CHELPs, I finally I started doing a citizen recognition program in Spinesreach. I begged and poked and wrote up all the lines to get a plaque I could add names to, to recognize people permanently for their service. I thought it was a great way to celebrate citizens who went above and beyond, and the city seemed pleased with it as well. A month later? Dhar implements his paragons program where people get a freaking HONORS LINE for service to Duiran, without anyone in Duiran even asking for or anything. I'm sorry, but gods swooping in to give another org something very similar and one-upping us in the same breath, that's REALLY REALLY dispiriting. 

Anyways, this is really tangential and should probably be in its own thread.

Moirean

@Areka - similar ideas are fine. It's when the gods offer superlative versions of the ones players work to implement. Orgs are a competition. It's like one org works super hard to train a runner, while the other org gets a lift via car for half the race.

Dhar

I had no idea you were doing anything even remotely similar to what I was, Moirean. I'm sorry if your patron or whatever is inactive and can't do cool stuff but it hardly seems fair to blame me. Also I'm doing it for Enorian and Duiran, and have been for the past over a month now.

Heck, if you really want something like that you can always poke me, you know I've already helped the Carnifex out a lot.

Calipso

Dhar said:

Heck, if you really want something like that you can always poke me, you know I've already helped the Carnifex out a lot.

True. You've given them your souls!

mwhahaha.

Okay end of pun.

Moirean

Dhar said:

I had no idea you were doing anything even remotely similar to what I was, Moirean. I'm sorry if your patron or whatever is inactive and can't do cool stuff but it hardly seems fair to blame me. Also I'm doing it for Enorian and Duiran, and have been for the past over a month now.

Heck, if you really want something like that you can always poke me, you know I've already helped the Carnifex out a lot.

Maghak is our patron and we're very happy with him. My point is more that us players only have so many tools we can use to add stuff to our orgs. Gods have more (obviously) and we can't expect to compete with the sort of things Gods can bring to orgs, so it feels futile at times to try to do stuff for an org if a God can just do it better, especially if the weaker orgs are the ones who get that divine attention to help them out.

Again, this conversation should probably be split into a different thread. I don't mind continuing it, but it's derailing this one a lot. Then again, I might be the only one who feels like this, so I can just let the topic drop.

Daskalos

On one hand you say Maghak is your patron and you're happy with him, and then you follow it up and say 'we can't expect to compete with the sort of things Gods can bring to orgs'. Maghak can do this for you, I'm sure if you just asked him... or you can  slam a volunteer for doing something cool for his orgs.

Also, I wouldn't call us the weaker orgs. I'd take Spinesreach versus Enorian 1 on 1 any day. It's Loch that causes the issues :P

Toz

When it comes to activity, which is what she's talking about, every city loses hands-down to Spinesreach. Admittedly, I might be a little biased - but it seems to me that there's consistently more chatter, more activities, more contests and rewards and things done there than anywhere else.

Moirean

Can we please get this topic split.

Moirean

@gods - @dhar, spines started our program  back in January. While employee of the month is hardly unusual, I doubt you can blame for me for being suspect for a program that is exactly similar emerging a month after ours.

@lifer gods - it's really frustrating when you bolster the lifer leadership to be stronger than it is via divine crap. Us players want to contest but suddendly so and so is part of x scheme to do y great thing - come off the BS, it was nothing of the sort and you just extended a regime for another 2 months.

@everyone - I'm not being nice, but I'm pissy about this stuff. Leading others is a viable and core part of gameplay, I thought?

Jensen

Deep breath Moi

Xavin

If this is over the "paragon of the cycle" thing, that Dhar started doing with Duiran, it's not something that just happened a few days ago. It actually happened before the only person who currently has it was a Duiran leader.

Also, don't you think that maybe the weaker orgs need a bit of attention from admin too?

Slyphe

Thread has been split. Keep it civil. This is your only warning.

Jensen

Somewhat unrelated, sometimes I worry @moirean gets upset that spinesreach doesn't have enough going on and ill wake up to a message from her saying "built a 600 room spire, could you do the guard layout tonight?"

Minarael

Moirean - I understand your frustration. You work really hard to create an awesome environment. Let me raise a counter argument.

We want the -whole game- to be fun. It's hard to keep excellent leadership across the board in these games. There are always going to be orgs that have an upper hand with the right combination of leadership prowess and player engagement. Unfortunately, that leaves players who can't afford to side hop or who are devoted to their character's RP boned if they don't have the time, inclination, or skill to step in and run things. So should the admin simply ignore those parts of the game that the best leadership isn't flocking to and let them drift in a sea of fail? 

Gods can only do so much. No amount of shiny mechanical goodies is going to be a replacement for good leadership. No amount of incentive is going to entice people to engage who are not already doing so, honestly. Instead of being angry that another part of the game got something cool, be glad that more of the game is an enjoyable place to be. 

The more parts of this game that are truly enjoyable, the more likely we'll be to retain actually new people, the more people you'll have to interact with in the long run. If the idea seems similar to one you've come up with, if it seems like they 'stolen' your idea to improve another part of the game, be glad -your- efforts are helping to improve the game. Spinesreach is always going to be more alluring. It allows people the most freedom out of any org in the game. 

Toz

There are finite resources. Admin attention is one of these. If an admin is helping a 'weaker' org, then that means they are not helping a 'stronger' org. The idea is, there is only so much a God-character can do - but there is also only so much any player can do. The frustration arises when a player pours their heart and soul into an org, and then the admin see this and go help another org - it seems almost not worth working hard for your org, to make your org an interesting place, because why bother? If you work hard, you get some people involved, but you also don't get to play in any plots yourself. Speaking from experience, RUNNING a plot and PLAYING in a plot are two entirely separate entities, the latter tending to be more fun (at least for me). So the player who works hard isn't getting any real fun out of it save what they create for themselves. Meanwhile, players on the flipside of things are all having fun because an admin is present. So in a way, it almost punishes strong org leaders to focus heavily on orgs that aren't as active.

To make a different comparison, if I spend 200 hours coding a system/sparring/working hard to learn to pk, and then I go to duel a noncomm and an admin shows up to kill me mid-fight, why bother spending hours coding when I can just wait for the admin to do it? I wasn't rewarded for my efforts, they went wasted.

I'm not sure what the balance is, or if one can even be achieved, but just saying 'you do a good job *headpat*' and then boosting another org, in a game that is about competition between players (pvp, bashing ranks, great hunts, elections, order wars, etc. etc. etc.), kind of detracts from any drive to make an org stand out. Like, you can almost look at it as HURTING your org if admin go out of their way to focus on less active organizations, because you're ensuring your guys won't get divine attention by trying to make things fun yourself.

Rashar

I feel like Spinesreach probably gets its fair share of divine attention.

Going only off the example given earlier, which is the whole Paragon thing.. eh. I was there for that conversation, and the vote. It went something like this:

Dhar: Hey, we're going to do this thing. Pick somebody.

Bens: Alright. How often?

Dhar: This often.

Bens: OK. We pick Boogles.

.. I mean, nothing against Dhar. I've heard nothing but great things about him (Even though I can't seem to get a poke. Poke.). But I'm fairly certain that little bit of attention didn't detract from -anything- else he was doing. 

Nalor

I find this topic pretty funny as reading through the Teradrims news Ivoln stepped in and told the old GM To change or hes leaving as the Divine.. so he got overthrown and nothing has changed.

So as much as the Admin try and help a guild, its the people running the guild who has to put in the effort.

So as stated above

"Gods can only do so much. No amount of shiny mechanical goodies is going to be a replacement for good leadership."

(I know moirean does a good job in both spines and Carnifex so not a dig at her but more of the other orgs who have good RP but dont do nothing with it but scare away the people who join.)

Haven

It's really amazing how often this topic gets brought up and argued on.

Toz

The Teradrim leadership got that way because of a massive metagame campaign that was extremely embarrassing, to say the least. I tend to avoid bringing anything to do with that guild up in polite company because there are a few topics that I cannot speak politely about (see: Carnifex class, raids on Christmas morning/eve, etc.) - and so in the interest of not driving people absolutely insane, I don't touch 'em. I say all that to say this: Teradrim is a highly atypical example.

Nalor

Toz said:

The Teradrim leadership got that way because of a massive metagame campaign that was extremely embarrassing, to say the least. I tend to avoid bringing anything to do with that guild up in polite company because there are a few topics that I cannot speak politely about (see: Carnifex class, raids on Christmas morning/eve, etc.) - and so in the interest of not driving people absolutely insane, I don't touch 'em. I say all that to say this: Teradrim is a highly atypical example.

@Toz im talking about recently.. not the metagaming stuff.. Ivoln stepped in saying the guild needed to change but only thing thats happened is, its had a new GM but thats it, nothing else has happened or Ivolns post just really got dismissed after the new gm was approved.

Xavin

Here's the thing regarding admin attention,though. Orgs have patrons to do that sort of stuff for them. You would expect an admin who has a godrole to do more things for an org that supports their godrole as a general rule because, using a dated example, if Lleis is seen actively helping Bloodloch or Spinesreach in a visible, in-role way, that's going to create problems due to inconsistency with their in-role duties.

Honestly, if -anyone- has the attitude that by helping org X, an admin is harming org Y, then there's something wrong with that person's attitude. This is a game. Small orgs need attention just as much, if not -more- than orgs that are thriving. Why do I say this? Because unhealthy orgs are not healthy for the game as a whole.

Toz

@Xavin: I didn't say that by helping org x that they're hurting org y (orgy?) - just that by helping org x, they're giving an advantage that org y doesn't necessarily have. The fairness is, obviously, up for debate - though I tend to be of the mind that if an admin is helping an org simply because that org currently sucks, I wish they'd make a point to go throw a bone to the orgs doing well as a reward for doing well. Naturally, I don't have much control (any, or we'd be in year 3 of Carnifex revamp and the class isn't even 3 years old) of what people do, but I do have my preferences.

Xavin

Toz said:

@Xavin: I didn't say that by helping org x that they're hurting org y (orgy?) - just that by helping org x, they're giving an advantage that org y doesn't necessarily have. The fairness is, obviously, up for debate - though I tend to be of the mind that if an admin is helping an org simply because that org currently sucks, I wish they'd make a point to go throw a bone to the orgs doing well as a reward for doing well. Naturally, I don't have much control (any, or we'd be in year 3 of Carnifex revamp and the class isn't even 3 years old) of what people do, but I do have my preferences.

It seems to me that this whole issue started because an admin gave two orgs something special that bears a superficial resemblance to something that spinesreach had recently started doing. The fact that you spinesreach got something neat that they can add names to and record them for posterity means that at least some progging/coding went into their thing, which to me sounds like spinesreach got thrown a bone.

I really don't think that anyone is neglecting orgs that are doing well. If anything, this game has a history of neglecting orgs that are already struggling.

Minarael

I'm just going to be blunt here.

I find it at least somewhat baffling that some people appear to essentially restrict administrators from improving organizations across the whole game. If your organization has an active and devoted leadership, that's freaking awesome. You are already doing much better than everyone else. If the admin then take time out of their workload to implement shiny cool things for you, that's also fantastic. Lucky you. 

Coming here to complain that an administrator did something shiny for an organization -already struggling- and helping them improve in some way is...well, you are encouraging a really lopsided game. That's not fun. 

Moirean - you have stated more than once that you intentionally went to the Carnifex to revive a struggling guild. I assume part of that is because you enjoy playing leadership. You like watching the org beneath you flourish and people in it having a good time. The administrators are doing -exactly that- on a game-wide scale. Don't complain when -they- do their jobs well, they want to see the whole game become as vibrant as the corner you lead. Don't take it personally, its not. Obviously the administrators appreciate what you are doing, they've involved you in a lot of plots. You've gotten a lot of coded shinies implemented. 

I've run a lot of organizations. I've run a lot of events. I've been behind the scenes and right up front. I know the frustration and struggles and stress that comes from juggling twenty things at once. I have run orgs that were dead and built them up to some of the best in the game, I've been a leader in orgs that were already great and orgs that no amount of leadership will fix. All of the above both with and without divine support. Divine support is cool, it's helpful, but it is -not at all- vital to the job of being a leader. It's a nice perk when you can get it, not a necessity, not an expectation, and not an unfair advantage. Honestly, I'd -rather- see divine support in places where the game struggles. It can help generate the sort of player engagement that can make it possible for leaders to do really cool things, and maybe inspire leaders who are currently lax in their job because of -insert a million reasons people get fatigued from leadership here- to kick things up and work harder. The Carnifex & Spinesreach absolutely do not need divine intervention to be cool, happening places. There's -always- stuff going on. There are a ton of active, engaged people. There are always contests and RP opportunities and storyline arcs. That's not the same for pretty much the rest of the game. It's pretty much crickets elsewhere. 

Ideally - divine support and fantastic leadership will combine with engaged players in organizations all over the game. People will magically become adults and we will all play in a wonderland of creepy, horrible RP and lots of conflict to keep the PKers happy while crafting approvals will become swift and painless and new shops spring up all over Sapience. Meanwhile, we make do with what we've got and should be collectively joyful when -any- part of this game gets an improvement. 

Edit - I was less blunt than I was planning on being. I decided sick me should probably still have a heavy filter. Ahem.

Benedicto

Extremely well said.