Shop ownership

Areka

Could do park and sell kind of like the refugee booths but as market stalls/lemonade stands/snake oil vendors.

Sarita

Bloodloch sets a limit of one per individual, but of the 20 shops, 9 are owned by organizations (all city guilds, houses, and the city itself.) Then there's the fact that even if every city put a similar limit in place, there's nothing to stop one person from owning a shop in two different cities plus Delos and the refugee camp.

Areka

Part of the solution could be to change how org-owned shops work and tie them more to their organization, which could then free those up for other people. Bloodloch probably has it worst due to the Houses, but Enorian's are also diminished with an org shop for each guild, at least two Order shops, as well as the city shop (which leaves 13 for other people). 

I think what having more shops (could be more smaller shops) could create neat 'districts' like in RL cities. Jeweler's row, fabric district, a carpentry area, and allow for more thematic shops (which I always like), cities could have contracts/laws stating the primary volume of wares for each area must remain within that theme, then the hodgepodge shops along a general market. ./ramble

Raeche

Xavin

Sarita said:

Bloodloch sets a limit of one per individual, but of the 20 shops, 9 are owned by organizations (all city guilds, houses, and the city itself.) Then there's the fact that even if every city put a similar limit in place, there's nothing to stop one person from owning a shop in two different cities plus Delos and the refugee camp.

Duiran has a similar policy regarding shops, but again - organizations want to own shops. We allow no more than two to be privately owned by an individual. Of our twenty shops, four are owned by guilds and one is owned by Duiran. That leaves 15 shops. Only two are owned and operated by the same individual but there are a couple that are owned by individuals that do have shops in other locations and some who are owned in name by people who I'm not certain even play anymore but who have someone keeping shop for them.

Haven

Honestly, if you own a shop, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with it provided you do the minimum to keep it running. After all, it's 'yours'. It just sucks for other players since there is a small and hard limit to the shops in the world. Plus there's the fact that there really isn't a consequence for running a non-profitable shop at all so long as you're capable of paying the taxes or whatever. I don't think there ought to be a limit at all but who knows what kind of strains that sort of thing would put on the game.

While I do like the idea of adding consequence to shopkeeping, I think it'd be impossible to enforce because of the many ways to get around it (give friends gold to buy wares for you, etc). I'm also reluctant to do something like that because of the fact that there are only so many things that -are- profitable and practical in the game currently that it'd probably make every shop basically the same and all the flavor stuff would turn into custom orders... Not sure how that'd pan out. It'd be one thing if all the Mercantile things were ready right now but eh... Hard to really gauge.

A solution that'd work regardless of what gets done now or later, I think, would be to make the refugee camp more attractive by adding fun and or essential things in/nearby the camp. An example would be a task master of sorts to fit the theme of the place that gives various rewards from honors lines to special mounts and more. Add quests to the place that are worth while to old and new players alike. Stuff like the Big Game Hunter that's in Delos. In addition, move (or create new) neutral NPCs that sell combat essentials at a higher than standard price and perhaps a poorer quality (decay time) than player created goods to the refugee camp. Plus it'd be a solid gold sink!

Seasone, the Industrious

Elixirs and salves (and undead equivalent)

Refills as well.

Morty, the sign maker becomes Morty, the Tinkerer

Makes signs

Empty vials and pipes (and undead equivalent)

Trinkets/Jewelry (necklaces, pendants, rings, earrings, etc)

Tinderbox

Haag, the Swamp Witch

Herbs & Slices

Enchantments

A shifty thug

Venoms & refills.

Moirean

My shop alone sells everything above. If we had more shops, I'd have one in Delos and your issues....wouldn't be issues, Haven. I also wrote up and got Severn to implement a lot of those basic supplies for sale from the Winterbreeze - the decay is super short, but the goal was to provide a stop-gap merchant for newbs/if shops were out, so this stuff is sold by NPCs already (at least to Spireans, teehee).

Haven

Another thing you could do with the refugee camp to make it more attractive and popular is to incorporate all the above ideas into just that specific area. That way you won't have to really increase city shop capacity or anything.

To clarify, make a selection of 5-10 special rooms in addition to the current shops there. These special rooms, however, are cleared each howling. You pay the 'mayor' of the camp to rent out the space to sell your wares there for the day (or maybe a few days but I'm preferring one or two tops). If everything is not sold by the next howling or when time is up, all the items are mailed back to you packaged in a box so you're not spammed to hell. Throw on a cooldown to the rent queue too so that if you've rented one recently 'because of the volume of applicants before you' you cannot rent another one so soon. Should be a short cooldown of maybe a day or two.

Limit the rent to one room per character. Yeah, sure. Someone could try to make multiple characters to own them all but considering that available shops are such a rarity that lots of people would jump at the opportunity, I'd wish them good luck. It'd make the place a revolving door of sorts and give people reason to frequent the area in case something new is being sold there. It'd be a nice gold sink too and it'd give more people a chance to try their hands at shopkeeping. Plus it'd give more value to actual perm shops too, I think. Maybe. I dunno.

Moirean

Or just move the refugeee camp to be adjacent to Delos, or heading off from NoT. I have no idea why it got put in the Liruma. you don't need more stuff there...just a better location.

Haven

Moirean said:

My shop alone sells everything above. If we had more shops, I'd have one in Delos and your issues....wouldn't be issues, Haven. I also wrote up and got Severn to implement a lot of those basic supplies for sale from the Winterbreeze - the decay is super short, but the goal was to provide a stop-gap merchant for newbs/if shops were out, so this stuff is sold by NPCs already (at least to Spireans, teehee).

Even so, it requires that you play the game and actively maintain those shops. :-P If those NPCs exist already, they ought to be moved to a neutral zone and added to help famousmobiles or something. Relying on other players suck.

Moirean

I disagree. I put in the effort and time to design the basic items and work with the city patron to have them stocked as backup merchandise for citizens to be able to get in a pinch - why should other cities benefit from something I did to help mine out and make my city more attractive and friendly to its citizens?

Haven

Moirean said:

I disagree. I put in the effort and time to design the basic items and work with the city patron to have them stocked as backup merchandise for citizens to be able to get in a pinch - why should other cities benefit from something I did to help mine out and make my city more attractive and friendly to its citizens?

Fine. Keep them.

But another set ought be created for general public use. History has proven time and time and again that relying on players for anything essential is bad.

Jensen

Add a develop ministry function that allows rooms to be set as stands,stalls,taverns,restaurants, smithys, ect.. For a credit price that scales up with how many the city has. The rooms have a cache for components that you can only add to and not remove from, working like a crafting shelf. You put designs out that only represent the crafting skill that stall was meant for and the cache only allows items in those designs to be added. Proceeds go directly to city bank accounts of the player. You'd be able to have wards, districts, or sectors of like tradesmen and theme city sections accordingly.

Xavin

Haven said:

Moirean said:

I disagree. I put in the effort and time to design the basic items and work with the city patron to have them stocked as backup merchandise for citizens to be able to get in a pinch - why should other cities benefit from something I did to help mine out and make my city more attractive and friendly to its citizens?

Fine. Keep them.

But another set ought be created for general public use. History has proven time and time and again that relying on players for anything essential is bad.

I'm just going to point out here that having everyone be able to make everything is what put the game's gold economy into the toilet in the first place. It's the reason forging wasn't profitable, the reason venoms and concoctions and reanimative cures are all simply unprofitable. Because there are so many people that can 1. make their own and 2. sell them at dirt cheap prices. I mean, are there even plants that sell higher than 1-2 gold a piece? It's impossible to price them higher and stay competitive but selling them at that rate just isn't going to cut it because of how long it takes to restock. Even with the pending increase to harvesting amounts it's still going to be worse than reanimation price wise. Trouble with reanimation is that there's no cap on what you can harvest in a day, so there's that to deal with on that side, too.

The only reason I turn a profit on enchantments is because I advertise my shop and it's one of the few shops that sells enchantments.

But all this is why the mercantile system is being put into place. So you -have- to rely on other people for various wares. It'll make a more robust economy.

Ishin

Haven said:

Moirean said:

But that's my point - this game is about player relations. This is a more broad topic, but I admit to feeling rather frustrated when I put a lot of effort in to make my city or guild better and then I see admin helping out other orgs when they don't invest the same amount of energy. You should be able to make your org stand out and offer a better quality of life to the members - be that through shops or activities or recognition or whatever - if you devote time and energy to it. If you do a lot to improve your org and then see admin offer similar things to other orgs, without them even thinking to ask for it, it really takes the wind out of your sails and unfairly equalizes things. 

Organizations should be about the ideals and the RP. Not who has the least broken mechanic.

Edit: The exception would be flavour mechanics. Like I thought it was really cool that the Carnifex got the whole gallows thing going on. A little sad that the Syssin are getting a copy of it as a class skill with noose. But meh, it's not an earthshattering or rolebreaking shift. Still plenty difference between the organizations thematically.

Bro we've had noose since before you were born. Come up off my noose.

Jensen

Shops, guys. Shops

Haven

Ishin said:

Haven said:

Moirean said:

But that's my point - this game is about player relations. This is a more broad topic, but I admit to feeling rather frustrated when I put a lot of effort in to make my city or guild better and then I see admin helping out other orgs when they don't invest the same amount of energy. You should be able to make your org stand out and offer a better quality of life to the members - be that through shops or activities or recognition or whatever - if you devote time and energy to it. If you do a lot to improve your org and then see admin offer similar things to other orgs, without them even thinking to ask for it, it really takes the wind out of your sails and unfairly equalizes things. 

Organizations should be about the ideals and the RP. Not who has the least broken mechanic.

Edit: The exception would be flavour mechanics. Like I thought it was really cool that the Carnifex got the whole gallows thing going on. A little sad that the Syssin are getting a copy of it as a class skill with noose. But meh, it's not an earthshattering or rolebreaking shift. Still plenty difference between the organizations thematically.

Bro we've had noose since before you were born. Come up off my noose.

Report 1401 is what I was referring to homeslice. It's not terrible or nothing. Just an "aw man" moment.

Minarael

The only valid point I have seen made about limiting the number of shops was made by Eleanor. Item storage being a detriment to the game itself. It seems to me that if that is the primary issue why the administration has avoided increasing shops - I'd other like to know this and think about possible solutions. That seems a problem that could be resolved and there seems to be definite interest in expansion and it opens new doors for us to give IRE our hard earned cash.

Areka

That seems a bit much, Moi. Should I feel you've stolen my idea for recognizing people because I have the shield wall in Templar where I can add shields on display for folks' achievements? 

As for shops: 

I think having a broader array of types of shops could be interesting, in turn. Small booths with 1 shelf (Yak's meat, hot wine!) to form something of a co-op, to full shops with 10-15 shelves. 

Though now I have the urge to see what we could do for an Aetolian CSA  for people who want to share their wares but don't do/want to do a whole shop. 

Moirean

With the introduction of crafting shelves and the expansion of cacheable items, I'd guess that physical items in stockrooms has actually drastically reduced in the past year. Toss in a few more things like Imperian's forging template options and a way for crafting boon arties to be used via crafting shelves, and you'd see even fewer physical items.

Eleanor

I dunno, do people actually use crafting shelves that much? I know I don't, myself, because it means I can't use my craft arties and more than half the stuff I need for cooking would need to be sitting on the stockroom floor anyway because you can't cache mobs and stuff.

Minarael

When I ran a shop, I've designed some things especially for crafting shelves, keeping in mind that oddball commodities couldn't be included. I love crafting shelves, especially for basic stuff like bags, vials, pipes, guild-required items (like uniforms). 

Moirean

The only crafting arti I have is the knife. The rest don't seem like a good bang for buck, except for the cooking one - but the convenience of craft shelves has discouraged me from getting that one. I stock pretty much everything I can on craft shelves. Even woodcrafts - I stock my double versions of those via normal stocking and then have backups on craft shelves for a higher price, as craft shelves ensure my shop always has stock of as many things as I can.

Areka

I use crafting shelves for tailoring, since the materials are so inexpensive anyway and it's less of a hassle than cooking. Cooking I'd probably use it for, even without the crafting artie, if we had an expanded 'materials dump' for shops for things that can't be cached. 

Minarael

This is a valid conversation that should be split into its own thread. Get out of here with your non-shop related goodness. :P

Erzsebet

I use crafting shelves, personally. Though I need to reset them up, since they clear entirely when you transfer a shop to someone if you haven't allowed them access to every single design. ;.;

I really wish, though I understand why we don't, we had a command to set ALL designs to a shelf. It'd be much faster.

Moirean

I have scripts that do it super easy, complete with mxp clicking, but nobody uses CMUD so I can't share.

Erzsebet

>.> I have a CMUD key that I acquired when I got zmud. It's almost worth it to download/install for that, simply given the sheer nuuumber of designs I have to put on shelves. >.>

Slyphe

I've split the thread - this is to remain for shop ownership discussion only. Organization leadership discussion can be had here.

Periluna

I'm a bit late to the discussion. Been working crazy hours again.

ANYWAY

Everyone who voted to nuke the camp shops - I curse you. Took me forever to just -find- a shop. My camp shop does -very- well. And @Haven, it has everything you need. If nuking the camp shops is still a thought, at least move our shops to Delos (although I really like the cheap taxes )