Shop ownership

Calipso

Within Aetolia, we have a certain limited amount of shops and rightfully so (for space/marketting reasons), yet it seems with such a restriction, we are becoming even more restricted with the monopoly placed upon shops. I've seen people owning from 3 to 6 shops alone (looking at you Elorin), and this really stunts any other new players attempting to get into the merchanting play of Aetolia. Additionally, many of these 'extra' owned shops are used for naught but storage, rather than actually selling items, thus further making it difficult for new marketters to have a place of their own.

Idea:

Place a limit of how many shops one may own. A maximum of 2 shops per player, reason being for those org leaders that must also be in control of their org's shop alongside their own. Doing so will open up avenues for players that are taking up trade skills to perhaps purchase a shop license and sell their wares.


Possible alternative/addition:

Allow players to open up a shop from their homes (at a price of course), where they may sell their wares. Same standards would apply in terms of tax.

Moirean

Limiting stuff more isn't a satisfying, fun or profitable answer at all.

Oleis

I may be out of line in asking this, but isn't this something that org leaders could very effectively police on their own? Obviously they can't increase the overall number of shops, but your criticisms and suggestions seem to be aimed at policies rather than specifically that hard cap.

Minarael

If we are going to have a conversation about shops, then I think it should really start with opening up more shops, not limiting the shops we have. In absolutely no way do I agree that there is any valid argument to be made about space or marketing being a good reason to limit the number of shops. As has been mentioned, it's hard to keep shops stocked with basic supplies because of how quickly they sell out. That suggests there is a market for more shops. Further, the fact that crafters who own shops aren't crafting because they simply don't have room suggests, once more, that we have room to increase the number of shops and to allow existing shops to expand. In terms of pricing pressures, things are already incredibly cheap, shops are incredibly valuable, and you aren't going to get a return on investment for awhile no matter what happens. 

Increasing the number of available shops is good for crafters because it expands their opportunity to showcase what they create and encourages them to create more. It's good for players, because there is a greater array of offerings (which is presently often limited to the same set of designs in a lot of shops because multiple people/groups are running sets of shops). It's good for roleplay because we can see more focused shops like pubs/sweet shops/tailor shops/etc without it being a detriment to necessary goods being available. It's good for the economy because gold sink. It's good for the company because more people buying trade skills, paying for shops/shop upgrades. Nobody should have to fight for nearly a year to participate in the game in this fashion. It's beyond silly.

How is it a bad thing? 

Daskalos

My issue is the hard cap. Enorian was over the cap for -years- and it was never an issue, but we got forced under the cap versus bringing everyone else up. With orgs wanting shops (orders, cities, guilds) that really limits shops available to players. Yes, I realize that's still 50ish shops, but shops are rare and once people have one, they never ever let them go. They'll meet the minimum requirements for shopkeeping to keep the shops, but I know if we started seizing shops for not selling XYZ that players sometimes paid credits to get, we'd get slapped down.

Why not, instead, up the cap to 30 shops per city and finish off the refugee camp because it's a terrible location anyways? If someone owns a shop in a refugee camp, make the cities give one of their new city shops to those people, cities can sell the rest for a chunk of gold, shops are more abundant, easier to do, et cetera. Especially with forging and concoctions being split up, and more to come in the form of enchantments, you're going to find less and less one-stop-shops.

Moirean

I posted this in the other thread, but I agree, and I'd say make the limit even higher. The cap is there partially to ensure the market isn't flooded with 30 shops all selling the exact same wares - but with how robust and expansive Aetolia's crafting system has become, that is not going to happen...unless you limit the number of shops/items people can sell, in which case cool crafted stuff isn't stocked in favor of...the same guaranteed profitable items everyone else is selling.

Building upgrades to have shops would also be an easy way to increase the number of shops available, and they'd be a good credit/gold sink, and let orgs have things like shops for newbie gear right within their own guildhall. 

Calipso

Daskalos said:

My issue is the hard cap. Enorian was over the cap for -years- and it was never an issue, but we got forced under the cap versus bringing everyone else up. With orgs wanting shops (orders, cities, guilds) that really limits shops available to players. Yes, I realize that's still 50ish shops, but shops are rare and once people have one, they never ever let them go. They'll meet the minimum requirements for shopkeeping to keep the shops, but I know if we started seizing shops for not selling XYZ that players sometimes paid credits to get, we'd get slapped down.

Why not, instead, up the cap to 30 shops per city and finish off the refugee camp because it's a terrible location anyways? If someone owns a shop in a refugee camp, make the cities give one of their new city shops to those people, cities can sell the rest for a chunk of gold, shops are more abundant, easier to do, et cetera. Especially with forging and concoctions being split up, and more to come in the form of enchantments, you're going to find less and less one-stop-shops.

Even if the cap for shops was upped, the same problem will still persist. Older, more established players, will seize more shops under their control for reasons of storage, new wares, and so forth. Sometimes I dont even understand why someone feels the need to have 3 shops in the same area...generally selling the same thing even! I've looked through every shop of each city and delos and it just baffles me why these people are allowed to own so many. Heavens know we have recently seen Aetolian players attempt to give arm and leg trying to purchase just a simple shop, yet finding none will give any of their 'extra storages' up.

@Oleis the only city I know of that placed a policy was Bloodloch, with something along the lines of "1 shop per person", which frankly is rather fair. I do wish the other players in orgs  would try to take this mentality up but frankly trying to depend upon a change of heart for fairness isnt exactly a good stance to take with a playerbase of any game.


Lastly, as for the refugee camp, let us remember that it contains the 'remnants' of Ashtan, as well as the shops of those that once had shops within Ashtan. To try and squash it out as if a meaningless area will not be taken so lightly. I personally rather enjoy the concept of the refugee camp, as it is not governed by a city (as like delos) and gives avenues for a more free feel in merchantdizing  wares.

Minarael

If someone has a shop where they are wasting space with junk, people will simply shop elsewhere -if- other, better shops are available. 

I'd vote for making shops more like housing. Have a shopping district. Keep taxes in place. Shops that don't pay taxes cease becoming accessible. Allow shop expansions for credit investment. Allow orgs to purchase shops with org credits, linking them to the org, not to an individual. Also allow orgs to purchase shop add-ons like casks, shelves, etc so there's no more issues like the one that recently happened in the Syssin. 

Edit - There is nothing 'fair' about limiting one shop to one person. That restricts a person doing the (rather tedious) work of shopkeeping for their org from owning their own -personal- shop if they wish. It also means if someone has a personal shop, despite their experience, they aren't allowed to run an org shop. That org has to find some other random schmuck to do the work.

Calipso

Minarael said:

Edit - There is nothing 'fair' about limiting one shop to one person. That restricts a person doing the (rather tedious) work of shopkeeping for their org from owning their own -personal- shop if they wish. It also means if someone has a personal shop, despite their experience, they aren't allowed to run an org shop. That org has to find some other random schmuck to do the work.

Which is why i stated a cap of 2, thus allowing those that felt the need to run an org shop to be able to on the side. Heck if it comes down to it, im sure there is always another high ranking member of said org that could have the shop under their name. We already have the mechanics in place  that allow allies with perms to access and utilize shops of friends/coworkers.

Daskalos

That's a rather socialistic point of view to take in an otherwise capitalistic marketplace, Calipso.

Xavin

I have some strong feelings regarding shops. On one hand, I understand the desire to make them a desirable commodity due to rareness. But what we are currently seeing is 1. an artificially difficult procedure for getting a shop, 2. shops staying in the same hands or groups of hands for very long periods of real life time and 3. a multitude of shops owned by the same individuals that all stock very similar wares.

I would support increasing the cap on city shops to something like 30 or 40 and eliminating the refugee camp. Why eliminate the camp? Because of the simple fact that no one goes there. The shops basically sit unused and it's exceptionally difficult to turn a profit. Beyond that, at this point in time pretty much every character who was an Ashtan citizen will have moved on unless for some reason they've been gone since before the city died back in what, 2010?

Moirean

My refugee camp shop got taken away from me. As did my Delos shop.

I really dislike the idea of a shop district. I don't really like BL's shop area and that's what I imagine a shop district would be - an anonymous maze of shops off somewhere else just cheek to jowl, instead of weaving them in to the layout of the city. I like them a bit more integrated into the city. The other ideas sound great - org upgrades would be lovely, for example.

Ishin

I had a shop on Resi once, like almost 10 RL years ago.


I sold action figures in it. I had Infernals and Paladins with real doubleslashing action. It was neato.



....I miss making those action figures

Calipso

Shopping districts are a natural phenomenon of civilization and meeting consumer needs. We already see now in aetolia how the limited avalability of shops is hurting the market and merchants that want to play their hand at..well the market.


I dont think placing shops only in the cities is a fair plan. We have to take into account that not all cities are accessible to all players, so rather than actually providing 'more shops' by deleting places like the refugee camp and possibly shops in delos, we'd infact be even more so restricting shops. The playerbase is divided down the line of 2 cities for life, 2 for undeath, thus limiting shop availability AND limiting the possible amount of people that could view their wares. Better to provide more 'neutral' locals, over politically influenced ones.

Daskalos

That's why neutral locations are worth so much. I say keep Delos, nuke the refugees, up the shopcount to 30

Moirean

And add 10 more to Delos and/or let people buy house upgrades.

Alternatively, instead of just increasing the city cap by x amount, you could have extra shop spaces be something you buy with ylem. *handwave sciencey reasoning* Byebye to all those stockpiles every city is chilling on.

Xavin

Every city has a shopping district. It's honestly better than how it used to be in placed like Enorian and Spinesreach, where shops were just all over the place. I feel like the polarization of the game isn't a big deal where shops are concerned, since being on either side only cuts you off from one shopping area by default.

Minarael

I agree with your general complaint, Moirean, but people seem to be oddly opposed to just...opening up more shops. I'd much rather see more shops woven through the city. I think raising the cap by 10 would just result in the same problem, but I'd rather than than nothing be done.. 

Given the investment in opening a shop and stocking it, there will always be a natural limit to how many we have. People who are interested in -doing- that work are a smaller percentage of people than who just want someone else to make stuff and sell it to them. Having a district allows for people to open a shop, -retain- that investment, and it not to impact the design of the city if that shop is pulled from the grid for not paying taxes or being understocked., If you can think of a clean way to handle that without a district, I'd be totally down.

Jensen

Last time I asked for extra shops for ylem upgrade I was told no.  I think we're just going to have to live with what we've got unfortunately.

Minarael

-Why- though? Makes no bloody sense to restrict shops from a business perspective. At all. I still have yet to hear one single, valid arguement for restricting them. 

EDIT - To complaints in the other thread discussing this.

On finding stuff in shops -

Create a shopping directory. One central location near the shops in each area that hosts shops. (IE - one in delos, one in spines, one in enorian, etc.) At this place you can do SHOP SEARCH <item> and it will search the inventory of all the shops and display the name and vnum of the shops that have that item. 

On the idea that more shops = more older players having shops = same problem -

Get rid of shop caps. Make them credit purchases. Attach them to someone's name permanently. If the person doesn't keep a certain # of items stocked, or if they fail to pay taxes, the shop closes down. I'd prefer if unopened shops were not visible. One way to do this and keep the -flavor- of having shops spread throughout a city is to have shop nodes. Each place there is a shop now in Spinereach could be the entrance to a sort of mini-market. Multiple shops could be attached to one node. If that shop closes down, there'd be no exit off of that node. Those rooms could be turned from shops into little market-flavored city rooms. 

On the idea that we'd still not have enough stock to go around - 

Most of the inventory of most of our shops is primarily crafted goods. There isn't really a limit here. We have a ton of different types of crafts and different crafters will have different spins on the multitude of available base patterns within each craft. We'll get a lot MORE options, rather than less, by opening up more shops. 

As others have mentioned, it's hard to keep utility stuff stocked. More shops will lessen demand and make a few people a little less wealthy, maybe, but also reduce the amount of time they have to spend picking herbs or forging and make it easier for players to find essentials. 

On the idea we'll ruin the market - 

Most people running shops will be shucking craft wares. The price on utility/commodity goods is already pretty darn low. I don't really think more shops is going to push prices down further. We'll just see more variety.

Jensen

I don't make decisions here, at least official ones

Minarael

:P Well. Get on that, Jensen. 

I may or may not have strong feelings about the shop situation. <.< I love having a shop, but I don't see the point in even -attempting- to get one. I have a ton invested in crafting skills I literally never use except to make one or two things for myself, basically because of the shop situation. 

It makes me a sad, sad kitten.

Toz

This is entirely off-topic, but I still think @Jensen has the best name ever. Any time you tell him to do something, it sounds like you're working in some fancy office. I need those reports by Haernos, Jensen. And make sure you've got the shop budget done before the end of the month.

Jensen

Works pretty well in the Syssin. "Jensen, I want him silenced.... for good."

Eleanor

Every time Jensen dies I think to myself, HE NEVER ASKED FOR THIS.

Actually I think part of the reason the admins are reluctant to add shops could be pure mechanics. More stockrooms means more infinitely-preserved items, which Aetolia has coming out its ears and it's a real problem. That's what I'd put my money on for why they'll likely never be a house upgrade.

As long as we're spitballing though, I have an idea. I played Aion for a while, right. It was pretty, but ultimately Yet Another Grindy MMO. One thing I found interesting though was that if you wanted, you could park your avatar and become a temporary shop, and people could come up and mechanically buy your things you wanted to sell.

Maybe instead of adding more market stalls (probably no because they're auction artis) or adding more shops (which I'm not against but I can see why mechanically it might be an issue), there could be some way to park and sell, if you wanted to have wares. It does limit you to selling only when you're online, but it's an idea that could have a little potential, perhaps? Cities and Delos could have a 'market square' where the park-and-sell syntax works, and you could come up and ASK MOIREAN WARES and get her list of things for the day.

Calipso

Minarael said:

-Why- though? Makes no bloody sense to restrict shops from a business perspective. At all. I still have yet to hear one single, valid arguement for restricting them. 

The general theory of limited shops in a city is for reasons of space taken and to offer friendly competition. Imagine if everyone could open up a shop in a city space, this including those players that either sign in once a week or remain in their havens for days on end. The city would be over flooded with nothing but shops and it would simply be unappealing.


- Now to take into account a sister IRE Mud, Lusternia provided a solution for the shop mechanic. Aside from city shops, people could create their own shop from within their 'haven' (similar to haven anyway). These shops can be accessed by other players by simply entering the dimensional hub and browsing for certain wares they are looking for, then entering these 'haven shops' to purchase them. It made for a clean, effective and orderly way of handling shopper needs and providing access to the market for all players.

Irruel

I'm all for making shops more available for players wanting to try that side of the game. And I like the shops in Lusternia.
BUT
In the other thread, when I mentioned 'wading through rubbish wares' I didn't mean overstocked shops.

I mean that of the sheer volume of shops that is Spinesreach, Duiran, Enorian, Delos and the camp, there's about 6 that I ever buy anything from. I've done the rounds multiple times in the last few months, searching for specific items, and I invariably end up back at my favourite shops, wishing I'd just gone there first. What a waste of time.

I don't know if it is actually possible to do something about that, without doing something like Lusternia's solution.

So I'm not really in favour of just increasing the shop count - I'd like to see more than just that.

Oleis

I think that regardless of what we do with shops, a directory like Imperian's would be a positive addition. Good call, @Minarael‌.

Calipso

Until shop changes could come, I'd really love if everyone could get on board with a general policy of letting others have a hand at shops and not allowing one person to own several. I have seen certain players with up to 5 shops and it just baffles me, as well as saddens me, that that much free space is being taken in an already limited availability mechanic.

Bloodloch has a policy upon shop ownership not exceeding 1. Perhaps other cities could take something like this up too?

Jensen

Most cities have that policy but its only for in that city. Spines multiples are from orgs (to my knowledge at least)

Erzsebet

a way to search for wares in a single place would be good.

Search shops vial:

Blahblahshopname: an ugly vial  50 gold
Blahblahothershop: a slender vial 100 gold
Blahblahshopshop: an analeptic serum (a purple vial) 500 gold

Or some such. Would be crazy cool/helpful to finding what you want.

Also. For obvious reasons, I am directly opposed to a limit on the number of shops one can run. Erz runs...three? At the moment, and only one of them is hers. I've run as many as four at once on one character that weren't my own (city, order, house, guild).

Allllso hugely supportive of anything that makes shops bigger/gives them more space. I effectively had two in Spinesreach at one point, though one was owned by someone else because I needed the space.

Re: scarcity. I can't say I've looked lately, but the last time I looked, shops were just falling like rain? And if you couldn't find one of your very own, it was hella easy to work out a deal with someone who did own one. Had an arrangement with Genocide for a couple real life years, where I stocked the shop and paid the taxes and it just technically still belonged to him (he was willing to sell, too, he just wanted something ridiculous). I've made arrangements with other people, as a shop owner, for like, a flat cost per year (similar to, but not as high as taxes) to let them stock their stuff in my shop.

I -like- Elea's park-and-sell idea. That's awesome. Might even encourage some RP.

Though. Re: think it was @Minarael who said said that they have a crafting skill and don't use it because no shop--you can make a -killing- at doing crafting commissions.