Punishment

Haven

I agree with you Jensen but what I've found is that the situation is severely skewed against Duiran in a very unfair manner. This is why I suggested a while back that the skills be removed from each class and instead be linked to each city  so that the options can be toyed with on an even footing.

Spinesreach ought get some cold themed thing that alters room description and spreads.

Enorian keeps Firestorm.

Bloodloch keeps exterminate.

Duiran gets some nature/vine thing.

As is there's only Firestorm and Extermination. What can Duiran honestly do back with the same severity of those skills? The only thing really at their disposal is just PKing people and death is a joke so it's not really that effective of a counter. They used to be able to do some forest skill that made walking through forests a real hassle but that got taken away or nerfed into the ground I think.

Jensen

@haven Once I started pking I really enjoyed exterminations.  It gave me a reason for duty and vigilance plus forced me to get really creative against offenders that would hide behind guards.  

Haven

Jensen said:

@haven Once I started pking I really enjoyed exterminations.  It gave me a reason for duty and vigilance plus forced me to get really creative against offenders that would hide behind guards.  

Oh, no doubt. I wouldn't advise anyone not to pursue that route if they wanted to. I just think the Admin should even the playing field across all the cities somehow.

I think it'd be pretty awesome if Duiran could plantbomb Bloodloch and various areas as punishment or whatever arc they wanted to pursue. Same with Spinesreach opening up a void or something for science if they wanted to stick to the whole magic theme or maybe a creeping frost, I dunno.

Xavin

Haven said:

the situation is severely skewed against Duiran in a very unfair manner.

This is a big point of contention, too, because on on hand we're being told that at the most it should be one death per two rooms rounding up and even that is too much in many cases, but then another org can say thirteen deaths for one offense. I just want to know where the line is drawn, and what justification could possibly call for thirteen deaths for something as small as bashing. Remember, with something like extermination, it requires something for the players to undo. Where as bashing really doesn't require anything to be undone.

Jensen

Xavin said:

Haven said:

the situation is severely skewed against Duiran in a very unfair manner.

This is a big point of contention, too, because on on hand we're being told that at the most it should be one death per two rooms rounding up and even that is too much in many cases, but then another org can say thirteen deaths for one offense. I just want to know where the line is drawn, and what justification could possibly call for thirteen deaths for something as small as bashing. Remember, with something like extermination, it requires something for the players to undo. Where as bashing really doesn't require anything to be undone.

I'm pretty sure the 13 deaths is against their own org which they voluntarily signed up for.  That is the difference

It is skewed against duiran, but protecting things you care about always leaves you vulnerable.  It's hard to fight evil/dark/shadow alignment if they care about little to nothing.  There's no game mechanic that can fix that.  

Keep killing them to drive the point home or target things they belong to.  In the example I gave to Aishia for why someone might exterminate, I mentioned targeting things they care about.  Kill families, hunt their protected areas, target their guilds, figure out an RP line to pursue, have Haern back you up, break into their houses, rp kidnap their children, talk to the leaders of their guild or city and tell them they're responsible for the actions of their members, ect ect ect

Duiran has a -really- important responsibility to protecting the wilds from unnatural influences, it's why you're unique, why you're not a city, and also why you're a larger target.  You can remove mechanics that impact the wilds, but in doing so you no longer will have any purpose what so ever and might as well become a civilization.

Xavin

@Jensen: Are you sure it's just for their own? Because Rowena's statement was this:

The Indorani do RP protecting Hazuenda though, the punishment for hunting there is actually pretty severe (thirteen deaths, the Indorani like that number).

Nowhere does she say that it's only if you're hunting there and a member of the Indorani. That implies that if you or I or anyone else goes in there and decides to bash that area, the Indorani would then decide to try and kill the offender thirteen times.

Jensen

I'm assuming because people hunt there all the time and I've never heard it being carried out before.

Xavin

Jensen said:

I'm assuming because people hunt there all the time and I've never heard it being carried out before.

Are you sure people hunt in Hazuenda? That's the nazheda settlement where ashtan used to be.

Calipso

Haven said:

the situation is severely skewed against Duiran in a very unfair manner.

Actually, from my experience, it is severely skewed against the Exterminator.

Exterminating forest rooms no longer really does any major effect. I've exterminated 10 rooms in a day only to find them restored in 2 minutes. It takes nothing to restore these rooms and the mechanic of plants needing to be replanted was removed ages ago. So in the end, what are we left with? Forest rooms restored, and 5 bounties placed on the exterminator whom is then hunted down by the combatants of the 'eastern coalition'. Just not worth it.

Xavin

But what does exterminating gain you? What's the point? The mechanic was griefy to begin with, really, since it only really ever hurt Duiran and its child orgs.

You got the brunt of it when you were out doing it because, frankly, you were doing tons of rooms. And it does take elemental ice which is a bit pricy.

Moirean

Rooms automatically restore at new year. You don't need to rejuvenate.

Jensen

@calipso

It's the RP consequence that's skewed.  Their sacred charge is to prevent exterminations (and other influences) from harming the wilds so failure to prevent them and worse failure to rejuvinate them is a failure of that charge. 

 -Anyone- can decide to be a troll and burn the world down in about an hours time because they're bored.  Then they can claim griefing to admins when Duiran decides to punish the person.  The person can also decide to hide behind guards forever, or maybe it was just a troll alt and they wont log in again for a long time.

Exterminations are an extremely severe thing to Sentinel, Shamans, and Duiran Councilors so every single death from them is warranted.  You exterminated 10 rooms and died 5 times?  Did you really have a reason or were you just doing it because you could?

Moirean

But that's my point. Rooms mechanically fix themselves at the new year, so if you want to ignore the griefing (and thus deny the griefers any power), you can. I would just be like "Yo, the Wilds defend themselves" unless I was in the mood to go PK the person or the room was somewhere significant/tactical.

Arbre

Jensen said:

I disagree, I play Jensen to view that action as significant.  Picking and choosing when to make exterminations significant defeats the entire point of immersion.  Didn't matter if they wanted to burn down the woods and immediately hide in Loch's portals room, I was going to find you, and you were going to die.

Calipso said:

Jensen said:

It's the RP consequence that's skewed.  Their sacred charge is to prevent exterminations (and other influences) from harming the wilds so failure to prevent them and worse failure to rejuvinate them is a failure of that charge. 

 -Anyone- can decide to be a troll and burn the world down in about an hours time because they're bored.  Then they can claim griefing to admins when Duiran decides to punish the person.  The person can also decide to hide behind guards forever, or maybe it was just a troll alt and they wont log in again for a long time.

Exterminations are an extremely severe thing to Sentinel, Shamans, and Duiran Councilors so every single death from them is warranted.  You exterminated 10 rooms and died 5 times?  Did you really have a reason or were you just doing it because you could?

At the time, the reason why I had begun my exterminations stemmed from a long feud I had with Duiran about harbering what I termed 'thugs' and not keeping them leashed (at the time alot of trolls resided in Duiran). I was replied with "Well we need fighters, so we arent going to tell them anything". So since 'duiranites' were always striking at me, I would strike back by attacking what they held precious.

Story aside.

Duiran shouldnt be placing bounties on rooms exterminated outside of its borders to begin with. I have always held a strong stance against the use of bounties on reasons corresponding to actions outside of a city, because I find it frankly unfair, especially when in this case, no real harm was done. Rooms -automatically- rejuvenate, -and- plants are no longer destroyed, why couldnt Duiran respond back with an RP mechanic rather than tossing tons of bounties and laughing?

Additionally, the slaying of Rangers in the forests...I dont even know why Duiran gets a log of these. I would get a bounty also placed on me for each ranger I slew...this just shows how messed up and abusable the bounty system is.

Arbre

Jensen said:

You're comparing them to cities, they operate differently through the same design.  You were messing with their only intended purpose for existing hence being hunted.  You can ignore anything that automatically resets, but then you wouldn't be RPing.  

Xavin

Duiran gets a log of them because the rangers are loyal to Duiran. The Rangers announce fires that they come across over ct (or at least they used to, been a while).

Calipso

Xavin said:

Duiran gets a log of them because the rangers are loyal to Duiran. The Rangers announce fires that they come across over ct (or at least they used to, been a while).

Right, and therein lies another problem. Natural fires were removed from the game because members of Duiran complained about the work. That added with Extermination becoming a pretty room message shows no real conflict anymore in forests. It's become too passive.

Xavin

The thing is, forests shouldn't -be- a conflict mechanic. Especially when it's a one-sided thing, i.e, everyone but duiran can attack the forests and duiran can't do anything to fight back aside from defend.

Edit: To elaborate, Bloodloch and Spinesreach both have guilds with access to extermination in necromancy, so they both have a way to attack forests. Enorian has two guilds that can cause rapidly spreading fires, so they can attack duiran via that method as well. The thing to keep in mind is that plants only come back if another room nearby has those plants, or that's my understanding anyway. So there're some nasty implications there, unless the plants actually come back on their own, too.

Moirean

While the old conflict mechanics for forestals don't exist anymore, that's not necessarily a bad thing. They were grindy and tiring and not engaging. Yes, new conflict mechanics to enhance and highlight Duiran's role would be nice - but new ones, ones that are immersive and compelling, not just a return to stuff that got phased out or an expansion of the current extermination/forest fire mehness. Patrols are incredibly dull and they are fun maybe 1% of the time when you can RP it out or write a book - the rest of the time, it's just "area search for bad stuff" and yawn.

Jensen

Calipso said:

Xavin said:

Duiran gets a log of them because the rangers are loyal to Duiran. The Rangers announce fires that they come across over ct (or at least they used to, been a while).

Right, and therein lies another problem. Natural fires were removed from the game because members of Duiran complained about the work. That added with Extermination becoming a pretty room message shows no real conflict anymore in forests. It's become too passive.

I feel like you're missing the point.  They are the ones making exterminations important through their role play.  Every single one that happens they view as important.  It doesn't matter that mechanically they aren't a big deal, they still view it as a loss.

The rangers themselves are also still rp important.  I had to rp losing my men to undead warriors not because they needed to die, but because the warriors happened to see them and thought they should die.  

If you're not viewing exterminations or duiran rangers as important then don't do them or kill them.  But don't says its stupid, then grief do them to spite duiran, and then bitch about the results

Rivas

I'd just like to point out that it doesn't matter if you signed up for the org or not, there NO reason that any offense should warrant 13 deaths. To have that in any organization's (city, order, guild, clan) laws is against admin PK laws. The only time you should be killed 13 times in one day is if you've committed 13 offenses to warrant the 13 deaths/bounties.

If it's just RP deaths, the laws need to state that. Otherwise you could get a PKwhore in the Indorani (haha I know, try to keep reading through your laughter-tears) who, following the letter of their laws, would say "well I didn't know it was a RP death, the laws say the person has to die" and then they potentially grief someone out of the game. That's not cool. That's never cool.


13 deaths for one offense, no matter what the offense, is illegal. It shouldn't be in the laws.

Toz

I saw this thread and was like 'Yeah I mean the skill's kinda op in a group but not worth 2 pages of thread in the less than an hour I was gone for...'

Then I realized it was this. Hnngh, thread splits drive me nuts.

On topic: I always laugh when someone cries about dying over an extermination. 'Oh God I did something I know people don't like and they *KILLED ME FOR IT*. Oh the humanity'. Don't want to get pk'd? It's really hard to do, but like. If you don't type in EXTERMINATE or whatever in a forest room, you won't get killed for exterminating.

So now that we've concluded there's a real easy way to avoid being pk'd over exterminating, let's say you do exterminate. How many times should you die? The Achaean in me says one death per offense, because that's how things work there - you exterm 10 rooms? See you with my buddies 10 times. Don't wanna see me any more? Well, quit exterminating. Death's a poor way to discourage anything, but it's the ONLY way to discourage things, esp. for some org like Duiran - I'd rather not see it lose whatever teeth it still has because people sympathize with the person picking the fights.

Haven

Totally not what I thought this thread was about. xD CHANGE THE TITLE.

Arbre

Sorry.  Sometimes it's hard to guess a name for a thread.

Jensen

NEXT WEEK ON RETRIBUTION AND PUNISHMENT

Will @Haern force @Haven to wear a title for his crimes?  Tune in and find out

Arbre

;;

Rowena

I doubt they'd actually get killed thirteen times. It's basically just a, "don't do it," sign. 

It's just the most severe punishment the Indorani can doll out (both the number and the significance).

An admin might get upset over it if it was acted on, but it fits with the kind of sacrifice for a grave offense a cult of dark priests with an obsession with the number thirteen might use. It's for guild members as well, not the public. 

Calipso

Toz said:

On topic: I always laugh when someone cries about dying over an extermination. 'Oh God I did something I know people don't like and they *KILLED ME FOR IT*. Oh the humanity'. Don't want to get pk'd? It's really hard to do, but like. If you don't type in EXTERMINATE or whatever in a forest room, you won't get killed for exterminating.

That wasnt the point of it. Death is fine...but a bounty for each was pretty overkill and just suffocated any chance for a forest conflict mechanic through that avenue. Open PK status really isnt a soft mechanic, it makes you highlighted as killable by anyone allied to that org, and worst part is, with the 'Bounty piling', it means you'll be killed over and over by reasons and standards other players deem are acceptable (meaning those that placed the bounty) until it is enough.

The concept behind exterminating is not to just do 1 room. A forest is not 1 room, it's a pretty large mass of rooms, and to make a bounty for every 2 or so rooms is just...frankly, abusive.

Toz said:

So now that we've concluded there's a real easy way to avoid being pk'd over exterminating, let's say you do exterminate. How many times should you die? The Achaean in me says one death per offense, because that's how things work there - you exterm 10 rooms? See you with my buddies 10 times. Don't wanna see me any more? Well, quit exterminating. Death's a poor way to discourage anything, but it's the ONLY way to discourage things, esp. for some org like Duiran - I'd rather not see it lose whatever teeth it still has because people sympathize with the person picking the fights.

Isnt the same way in Achaea, and I would know since i've been part of extermination squads there. Exterminating there has some real feel of significance behind it, and also is used to negate the effects of "forest attacking enemies of nature".

Moirean

I've had an open bounty on me from Enorian for like a RL year. Nobody ever claims it and that's cool. I'm a troublemaker, I'm loud, I'm a big name. If you're going to play as a big force in the game, that's just how it goes. I think a lot of us more powerful players just assume we're going to be open PK most of the time, and that's just how it goes - I know Ezalor and Daskalos both are in similar situations. I don't always enjoy it (I'd prefer to be able to idle or wander randomly to pick up RP) but there are consequences to playing a character that creates conflict.

Tina

Ok, to clarify, our law on Huzaendha is this.

C. The Indoron protect those who reside in Huanazehda, and are loyal to it.  No 

Indoron should make any aggressive decisions against these citizens, and should 

fight on their behalf to ensure their safety.

We won't grief someone if they kill things in Huanazehda, but if an Indorani sees someone doing it, they'll likely report it, or attack the offender.  We also in the past made a public statement that it was under our protection.

We do have a punishment that calls for 13 deaths on the offender.  13 was chosen obviously for the rp significance to the guild, it has never been used yet.  It's the number of death, embodies the guild, and fits for crimes that need killing.  The crime this applies to is if you attack and kill the chaos lords on the chaos plane.  Which I guess closest comparison would be going to Nirvanna and killing the trinity, or going to Dendara and killing all the nature spirits.  Except these have exited for far longer, and are more ingrained.  Also, as really only those with domination can get into the plane now, it is a punishment reserved mainly for a guildmember, or someone we apprenticed doing it.  They can avoid the punishment by giving up the skills, thus being unable to return to the chaos plane.

This protection is part of the deals and treaties we brokered with Golgotha in the past.  The only time this might become problematic is if a cabalist does it, but that's never happened either.  It's more there for flavor, it's not likely to be one that is done anymore since only Indorani and Cabalists can even get to the chaos plane really.

On the matter of claiming an area, I don't think anyone should claim a real bashing area and try to prevent people from hunting there.  Including Aurer Haven, if it shows up on AREAS, as far as I'm concerned no one has a claim to the place, they protect themselves.  And players shouldn't be able to make bashing areas open pk to try and force everyone not them out.