Punishment

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Daskalos

Enorian's protection of areas is based on RP that has been established for well over 10 years. This has been held up time and again -- we don't bounty over it anymore, but we will enemy and if we catch you, run you out. (because I think bountying over it is silly).

To then claim 'well, we protect Tiyen and Xaanhal when you yourself also hunt in these areas isn't RP to me, it's 'oh I'm going to be a unicorn'. If you want to fight against it, bring a big (or bigger than we can handle) group and bash Torston. The fight is over Torston\Tainhelm\Arbothia whatever (all villages that sent troops to Enorian in the Demonblade War) and an RP that has been super protected.

If you want PK, it's there in those villages, which are historically aligned to Enorian. But don't be a hypocritical douchebag just to step on RP because you're feeling like a bully tonight.

Ezalor

@Daskalos I can totally understand Torston/Tainhelm/Arbothia. You got legit RP connection to that through the war. But when someone is protecting Arurer, where the only connection is "priests/angels" that's about as flimsy as protecting Tiyen because Chakrasul is on the Divine Advisory and the Nazetu are her peeps.

Not to mention your person only targets noncoms/newbies and tries to provoke them into attacking first by blocking all exits, spamming barge, etc which I would guess is a flimsy way to get around being told he wasn't allowed to infinite PK. Just a dude being a griefer because he can kill some people.

Haven

Daskalos said:

Enorian's protection of areas is based on RP that has been established for well over 10 years. This has been held up time and again -- we don't bounty over it anymore, but we will enemy and if we catch you, run you out. (because I think bountying over it is silly).

To then claim 'well, we protect Tiyen and Xaanhal when you yourself also hunt in these areas isn't RP to me, it's 'oh I'm going to be a unicorn'. If you want to fight against it, bring a big (or bigger than we can handle) group and bash Torston. The fight is over Torston\Tainhelm\Arbothia whatever (all villages that sent troops to Enorian in the Demonblade War) and an RP that has been super protected.

If you want PK, it's there in those villages, which are historically aligned to Enorian. But don't be a hypocritical douchebag just to step on RP because you're feeling like a bully tonight.

Why wouldn't it be RP just because they hunt there? o.o I don't think they've claimed to 'protect' the area or at least not in the same sense Enorian protects their areas. Consider a pack of wolves controlling an area and defending it from another pack. They don't do it because the poor elks need saving. They do it because they wanna eat the elk without contention and see their supply protected for their benefit.

I'm not saying I like their stance or anything but I'm not sure why anyone would consider it nonRP.

Daskalos

While Arurer Haven isn't on our official list, you do know that all the head priest types in there moved from Jaru, right? That they moved up there...? Also, Arurer Haven is literally -Angels-. How can you not expect Enorian to protect it -- I would expect you guys to protect your Undead brethren in Mor if you wished it.

Ezalor

Well, that just opens up similar lines of reasoning for BL. Maybe we want to protect "our" hunting grounds and PK anyone who goes in there. If we're going to use stretch reasoning to try to block off bashing areas, hell Ezalor used to be a Xorani, maybe he starts really wanting to protect Xaanhal.

Daskalos

As a player, do you not see the hypocrisy in that stance? Enorian players are RP'ing what has been done for literally a RL decade, and they don't hunt it. There's no double standard of 'we hunt here and protect here'. None. If you wanted to not hunt, say, Mor ever and then protect it, I say go for it. I'll warn my citizens to be careful when they go in there. It makes sense. To protect places you -also- hunt just reeks of 'I don't like something so I'm going to try to be a bully and get my way'.

Yes, you can kill everyone under the sun as a BB. Congratulations. I'm less and less impressed, considering you told me it was you and not the class that gave you the ability, then I watched Ashmer beat up your Templar time after time after time because even you couldn't beat a BB in Templar unless Ashmer did something stupid like forget rebounding.

Teani

Bloodloch have their own areas of protection, no? When the Festering wastes opened up and Kornar and Vilimo were added there was this whole "This is where we breed our cattle for feeding"-thing. If Enorian's people go hunting there it would create a similar conflict as for Bloodlochians hunting in Torston and Tainhelm (similar levels as well, I believe).

Exerting control over high-end bashing areas is just a bit too much if you ask me, and there are few ways for a place like Enorian to claim to defend such areas as most of them are seen as corrupt in one way or another (nazetu, evil Marcello, cultist kelki, etc.) Not that I prefer to push for something like this, but if the game is supposed to be based that much around Shadow versus Spirit, perhaps a few high-end bashing areas aligned with Spirit should be added, and then those who are hardcore players won't go off bashing their own supposed "allies". Never made much sense for me seeing Chakrasul's followers go around bashing in Tiyen, but hey, it's profitable and there are few other places to bash!

Just my thoughts.

Rashar

Its been traditionally easier to be 'evil' in just about every game known to man since like.. Forever. Bad guys don't usually have qualms about killing people.

Rowena

Novices always ask me is it okay to bash "x" and "y," as Indorani and I just RP it with the whole evil, their vitality is forfeit for your benefit, if they're too weak to stop you, prey on them etc. Like, we're not the sort to coddle. 

The Indorani do RP protecting Hazuenda though, the punishment for hunting there is actually pretty severe (thirteen deaths, the Indorani like that number). 

Calipso

Teani said:

Exerting control over high-end bashing areas is just a bit too much if you ask me, and there are few ways for a place like Enorian to claim to defend such areas as most of them are seen as corrupt in one way or another (nazetu, evil Marcello, cultist kelki, etc.) Not that I prefer to push for something like this, but if the game is supposed to be based that much around Shadow versus Spirit, perhaps a few high-end bashing areas aligned with Spirit should be added, and then those who are hardcore players won't go off bashing their own supposed "allies". Never made much sense for me seeing Chakrasul's followers go around bashing in Tiyen, but hey, it's profitable and there are few other places to bash!

Just my thoughts.

For the highlighted part, I once had the same thought and inquired about it personally to Chak's high priestess. I was informed that She cares not for the Nazetu of Tiyen and considers them to have gone off her true path (or some such). In the end, they hold no special part to her.

Now the Nazedha tribes...that's a different story. For those that remember, we would even see Chakrasul giving blessings to the nazedha tribes.

Xavin

Rowena said:

Novices always ask me is it okay to bash "x" and "y," as Indorani and I just RP it with the whole evil, their vitality is forfeit for your benefit, if they're too weak to stop you, prey on them etc. Like, we're not the sort to coddle. 

The Indorani do RP protecting Hazuenda though, the punishment for hunting there is actually pretty severe (thirteen deaths, the Indorani like that number). 

I'd love to see the indorani try and defend thirteen deaths for bashing an area to an admin in an issue. That just wouldn't fly. At all.

Ishin

You're assuming the person would issue, Xavin. There are some of us who like, you know. Take our lickins and keep on tickins. Not all of us are whiney babies.

Hadoryu

Ishin said:

You're assuming the person would issue, Xavin. There are some of us who like, you know. Take our lickins and keep on tickins. Not all of us are whiney babies.

lol nice potshot

But having guild policy that won't stand up to an issue is a bad idea.

Maghak

I strongly advise that everyone takes a step back from the keyboard before posting further in this vein. Thank you.

Xavin

Ishin said:

You're assuming the person would issue, Xavin. There are some of us who like, you know. Take our lickins and keep on tickins. Not all of us are whiney babies.

Generally a policy like that amounts to griefing, which was my point. A policy like that is pretty much the guild -asking- for administrative punishment the second they act on it.

Edit: My point is this. Duiran has been told in the past that we can't bounty on a one to one ratio for exterminations. We've been told, in fact, that we can't exact more than a handful of pk's for even moderately sized exterminations. Why then would an org be allowed to exact thirteen deaths over someone bashing an area that, quite likely, has strong enough mobs that they can defend themselves?

Ishin

...lol. @Hadoryu I can -assure- you I was not calling XAVIN, or all people, a whiney baby. It was more of a general statement, quite honestly, but I see what you did there, my old liaison nemesis.

And really, @Xavin, 13 deaths is -absolutely- ridiculous. It's not there because OMG YOU DID US WRONG WE KEEL YOU 13 TIMES. It's there for RP significance, I doubt you'd see them pwn someone more than once per bashing trip, if that. I mean, I used to PK people for hunting 3-rock(you could turn in the bandits to the guy in Spines for some pretty decent capital) since I considered it a mainly Spirean area, but eventually I got told to knock it off 'cause it wasn't fair to the other people who wanted to bash there.

Jensen

Ishin said:

...lol. @Hadoryu I can -assure- you I was not calling XAVIN, or all people, a whiney baby. It was more of a general statement, quite honestly, but I see what you did there, my old liaison nemesis.

And really, @Xavin, 13 deaths is -absolutely- ridiculous. It's not there because OMG YOU DID US WRONG WE KEEL YOU 13 TIMES. It's there for RP significance, I doubt you'd see them pwn someone more than once per bashing trip, if that. I mean, I used to PK people for hunting 3-rock(you could turn in the bandits to the guy in Spines for some pretty decent capital) since I considered it a mainly Spirean area, but eventually I got told to knock it off 'cause it wasn't fair to the other people who wanted to bash there.

I don't think 13 deaths is too far from an RP standpoint where it's against the fundamentals of the guild.  If they did issue so that you weren't allowed to carry out that punishment, then I'd change it to a death, perma-enemy, and outguilding.

Point being, if you can't handle the punishment then don't do it

Xavin

That's the thing, though, @Jensen. We got told we're not allowed to go after people who exterminate on a one to one basis. How is thirteen kills for bashing in an area any more reasonable when bashing an area doesn't require any expenditures to fix?

Damonicus

You know, they may be rping the death 13 times....just saying........

Jensen

Xavin said:

That's the thing, though, @Jensen. We got told we're not allowed to go after people who exterminate on a one to one basis. How is thirteen kills for bashing in an area any more reasonable when bashing an area doesn't require any expenditures to fix?

I always went for the maximum punishment on that too, as I'm sure you know. The key difference being the exterminators arent part of the council, the hunters of that area are part of the guild.  They agreed to the law by being a member.  

How severely would you punish a duiran council member who exterminated the recovering aalen for fun?  The rate I remember the admins setting was 1 per 2 rooms rounding up.  I'd have pushed for that or more in a heartbeat.

I don't like griefing players at all, but I don't like people hiding behind that to protect them from being a troll, especially if my rp mandates action.

Sarita

Without getting into the specific details about numbers of deaths and issues, and all of that, there is one point I did want to mention that I think has been glossed over a bit.

I don't know the extent of the RP that went on the guild to get that number and punishment, but I think the key difference between than and extermination is that you're dealing with someone in the org as opposed to someone who isn't. I feel like there is (or should be?) a bit more creativity allowed with in-org punishments since you joined voluntarily, effectively agreeing to be part of that line of RP, and if you really want to change it, there are avenues available to you that aren't there for people outside of the org.

Calipso

Xavin said:

That's the thing, though, Jensen. We got told we're not allowed to go after people who exterminate on a one to one basis. How is thirteen kills for bashing in an area any more reasonable when bashing an area doesn't require any expenditures to fix?

not to throw fuel on the fire here, but I recall when I would even touch 1 forest room, I was hunted down pretty aggressively, which only spurred my actions back then more for the overkill that occurred.

Elwyn

Well, we are going to go after you if you exterminate a single room.

Jensen

Calipso said:

Xavin said:

That's the thing, though, Jensen. We got told we're not allowed to go after people who exterminate on a one to one basis. How is thirteen kills for bashing in an area any more reasonable when bashing an area doesn't require any expenditures to fix?

not to throw fuel on the fire here, but I recall when I would even touch 1 forest room, I was hunted down pretty aggressively, which only spurred my actions back then more for the overkill that occurred.

As MoS I used to keep a running spreadsheet for offenses and particularly exterminations.  There was a project for multiple bounties and you would frequently re-up your quota on that before it ever reached zero.

Aishia

There's no real reason to exterminate beyond trying to drum up conflict.

Jensen

Aishia said:

There's no real reason to exterminate beyond trying to drum up conflict.

Madness(insanity), chaotic rituals, RP destruction of something important to an enemy, retribution or intimidation against Duiran, ect...

Unfortunately I rarely see any of those used.  If I had indo, I would probably do those things

Aishia

to be fair all of those are kinda "drumming up conflict"

Jensen

Not really, it can be done in response to it.  Unless you're giving it a blanket statement, to which I'd reply any pk mechanic is only there to drum up conflict.  We could all just be crafters

Aishia

As a blanket statement, I don't think RP or mechanics that involve destroying/corrupting forests can exist without antagonizing Duiran, yes.

Jensen

I agree that it will antagonize Duiran plus the orgs that make up Duiran, but that's not what you wrote.  I'm just disagreeing that there's no real reason to exterminate other than drum up conflict.  

From a player standpoint I liked Haven burning down the world when he saw Duiran working with enemies of the light.

As an example (which involves duiran).  If there are characters of the Council who are antagonizing the Syssin by killing our weaker members, harassing us, robbing or attempting to rob our shops; and killing them doesn't make them stop.  I would resort to telling the Council that if their councilors don't knock it off that we will burn down a forest for each continuing offense.  They clearly don't care about their own lives, so lets see if they care about the wilds and their home.

That is a lot different than "Hey it's a boring tuesday, lets worldburn."