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Spiritshields
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Comments
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Everyone's up in arms about the possibility of some PK, but RP was attempted years ago when she was still in Enorian and wouldn't stop handing them out to Shadow. Her solution was to -move- to Loch\Reach. The next application is, of course, through force.
Unless, of course, we want to all stop pretending that this isn't about RP at all and is simply getting something you shouldn't have and wanting to keep it because 'YAY ADVANTAGE', however small. The -fact- is that Bliss was changed because shadow side combatants didn't like that extra buffs could be handed out to allies from Paladins\Luminaries, so it was changed. Now, suddenly it's ok because it benefits Bloodloch.
If you're all ok with it, I trust everyone is ok with Bliss being changed back so we can give toughness to every class again?
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Just because 1 person feels privileged and wants to bully her way around, doesnt mean we should all follow suit.
That's extremely specious logic. That would be like saying that I could PK half the Bloodborn leadership every time they use Hematurgy because I disagree with what they've done with the guild since I stopped playing. Maybe, technically, I could, but if I did it every single day to the point that someone wanted to quit playing, I have a feeling that the admin would be having a talk with me. There are limits to RP-PK and they're in place for good reason.
Well, it seems to me, I have no other option left. Bloodloch and Spirean players are perfectly fine with accepting Spirit-labeled buffs, so the only way to fix it since Loch\Reach continue to play on the grounds of 'I can do anything possible' versus life side going 'we have standards and rules' that if I can't change the organization, change the person.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
It's justifiable to attack her in this instance, she's aiding the enemy and hurting the cause. Just leave the door open for RP resolution and don't crush her back to nothingness.
Actions have consequences.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
PK is part of RP and vice versa. Veovis runs his mouth, the solution isn't always to run your mouth back, it's to punch Veovis in said mouth. You're right I don't like it. I don't like that a -Spirit- based attack (she does CHANNEL SPIRIT to be able to do this, remember?) is being used to give Undead a buff. But I also understand that if she were giving them out to our side, the complaining would be the same (and it was, with bliss). Bliss got neutered, I'm simply advocating neutering spiritshields the exact same way.
Right now, everyone is at a set standard of tankiness. There is a liaison report that is going to remove some tankiness, but this removes it from one side of the game. Also of note, while Epicurus is on our side right now, I wish it did something else. I do not understand how it is possible to balance a game with variables such as tankiness in flux based on old priests coming back or a statue being built. Without that statue, and orbs, Templars lose a bit of tank. But, you can't buff Templars because with it, they're just fine. Vampires are just fine without the Spiritshields, is it too much with it? Who knows. Does that 5% turn a lesser battle ever so slightly? Who knows.
What I do know is that they weren't taken into account for balancing, they don't make sense RP wise other than by people who are justifying them using the lame excuse of 'we're bad and do whatever we want'. It is -easy- to roleplay being an evil character, and far harder to roleplay being a good one. Evil lives by no rules, and can play as such. Good cannot, and good handicaps itself for it. It is then up to the administration, of which I have full faith in, to rectify these situations as they come up. Not one person has offered a single refuting point of why bliss should be neutered but Spiritshields shouldn't. Not one person has offered a comparable skill in the game anywhere. Aishia came out and straight up said 'this is a bad idea'. Ilyon says he'd support making it caster only, which is what I'd like to see.
I, personally, wish you got auto-enemied to organizations based off of tethered classes, but that's a pipe dream. I -love- the tethering system, because it eliminates gray. I hate gray.
Justification for IC actions.Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
Obviously, griefing people until they quit is -not- the solution to this problem but I still think it's worth discussing without patronizing people who are of a different opinion.
I would like to summarize, lest everyone keeps saying the same thing, someone says something about someone's mother or face and bam, locked. So to conclude and lay everything together, maybe this helps everyone see things a bit more clearly.
Let's try to lay down some facts:
Bliss: Grants Toughness, Fitness, and Resistance Defenses.
-> Toughness 10% cutting(? - quoted from Sotere on old forums: Tue, 2007-09-11 02:24 #358 in 'Level 100 Races')
-> Fitness - Prevents an application of asthma(/kalmia) or cures it. (Think that's it no asphyx % resist right?)
-> Resistance - Reduces magical damage by 10% (right?)
vs.
Spiritshields:
-> 5% fire resistance
-> 5% cold resistance
-> 5% cutting/blunt resistance
Daskalos said, quoting Ilyon: "[I've no problem with making them user-only,] - I believe this has been what I've been advocating all along."
Quotes from Daskalos in this thread:
"The issue is her giving the shield defenses to others."
"I wish they'd just make them applicable to the priest only and not bestowable on others. Especially spiritshields working on Undead."
"Spirituality. Spiritshields. Devotion. There is no reason, whatsoever, in this tethered world that this should work with Undead."
"In any form of RP, why would a buff that literally requires you to CHANNEL SPIRIT work for Undead?"
"Toss out all the bad RP that goes along with Undead being layered with a 'spirit channel' fueled defense, it's the same argument."
"Actually, my issue is that I want the same standards applied to Spiritshields that were put on Bliss"
"My thing is it's either all or nothing -- either defenses for a class stay with the class, or they don't."
" I just want Spiritshields given the Bliss treatment, something that Loch and Spirean players threw a fit about until they got a couple of years ago"
"Bloodloch threw a -fit- that we could bliss other people and give them the toughness defense if it wasn't something they had access to, because it was 'an extra damage reducing buff'. And Loch complained loud enough that bliss no longer gives defs to anyone but the owner. This is the exact same thing, and should be treated as such, IMO."
"It feels hypocritical for anyone to say 'bliss shouldn't give defs to the others' while defending SPIRITshields. All I'm asking is for equality."
"This is a defense, that once activated, lasts until death. You are comparing apples and oranges, again. "
> I'm sorry but I got to make one joke here: "It's not griefing. Every time Kerryn restocks her shops it's a 'new' offense and pkillable by Moirean because the designs she uses used to belong to Moirean (who gave them away) and she wants them back (Kerryn has refused). What's to say every time she casts it on an undead it's not a 'new' offense?" - You said apples and oranges?
Daskalos said in reponse to Toz' calling out his Syssin skills: "I have Syssin but don't use it. It's also considered a neutral tether class. Priests are not. Druids are not. Teradrim are not. Your argument doesn't make sense bro. "
> Priests are technically not listed in the Tether table.
Sidenote: "Why would you want Spirit power coursing through you? And please don't give me the 'we use anything we can to our advantage' line."
HELP HEALING - 9.23 HEALING
Healing is a relatively straightforward, though useful, skill. By opening channels to the five Elemental Realms, you will be able to heal various afflictions in yourself and eventually others who are with you.
vs.
HELP DEVOTION - 9.2.2.8 DEVOTION
The skill of Devotion is based around the life essence of devotion.
Daskalos said: "Also: don't lump me in with Duiran. Enorian has generally held ourselves to higher standards"
> Don't lump Spinesreach in with Bloodloch either then. Spinesreach is not 100% undead. Bloodloch is. They have their own extreme standards like Enorian by own RP choice.
As you said: "Duiran has always been more gray, as has Reach"
Ezalor said: "The effect of all spiritshields is less than the effect of the Epicurus statue. Only one city can have the Epicurus statue at a time and it hardly breaks game balance."
> There is also only one active Priest. Who may be convinced to move elsewhere or may disappear again. Just like the statue can be moved.
Haven said: "Unless her buffs are breaking combat balance now, I find changing the skills just cause he doesn't agree with her RP to be extremely unfair. The issue primarily seems to be an RP one rather than a class issue."
To which Daskalos said: "The fact that RP backs up the mechanical complaint is just an added bonus/"
So the two key things raised here is that 1. You don't want Spiritshields applied to Undead (you flip-flop from that to 'others', but let's stick with undead since you mention:) because Spirit side. 2. Bliss got nerfed, therefore this should too.
1. As is established, Priests are not tethered. Technically healing draws upon all elements. One of which is the -element- Spirit. All 'Mage/Science-type' people RP-wise would say they use/investigate the Spirit element too (Sup Cabalists!)
Edit: I mean to say. I think in this case Spirit element =! Spirit side.
2. Bliss and Spiritshields are two quite different fruits! Given the fact that they have different impacts. Daskalos wants equality. Bliss changes would affect all devotion users, Spiritshield changes would affect one person (or the one other person who reads this and thinks 'Oi maybe I should log in and troll too!'). Tone down bliss to grant lower percentages of resistances too or move it to monk neutral class? Or spiritshield and bliss will only affect living. (Still unequal because more bliss users than spiritshield)
By no means am I trying to attack anyone in particular here, I know I am quoting Daskalos a lot but he seems to be an adamant and loud voice in this discussion. It seems a few people are rather strongly and possibly emotionally invested in this.
Okay I'm done now! Sorry if I messed something up, got a fact wrong or derped up English. Now proceed to rage at me and pick it all apart again because "Oh no you spelled/got something wrong or something! You suck!"
"All 'Mage/Science-type' people RP-wise would say they use/investigate the Spirit element too."
The 'Sup Cabalists' was just because I said Science.
Also. Either way, this is not the topic of discussion necessarily right now. (Which is also OOC by the way! I hope that's clear.)
To clarify my remarks:
I have a problem with Undead\Vampires getting them, however, others would be everyone else because the same complaining has happened in the past when we had a Priest that would give us Spiritshields.
On what basis do you believe Spirit is an Element? The Spirit Channel used by the Priests is the same one used by the Magi originally and now the Ascendril. This has been defined as a link to the Spirit plane, which is why Damariel acted when Meltas let Zynti (a Necromancer) in the guild and made him a secretary, because it was a threat to Spirit and the Spirit Plane (also of note, Damariel at the time claimed dominion over Spirit).
If the Priestess in question were to go Undead, her skills would quit functioning. Under the original polarization, Devotion\Spirituality\Healing\Illumination were made to have racechecks and not work with Undead.
The point about bliss (which would affect a wider ranger of people) is that bliss was nerfed because of basically the same argument -- that it gave class defenses to people who otherwise wouldn't have them. Shadow side complained about it and thus, it was changed. I bring it up, because the very logic people are applying to Spiritshields CAN be applied to bliss. So which is it? A lot of people were upset when bliss was changed because it removed one of the guilds last 'help others' abilities, moving us further from the Priest days.
Two liaisons have chimed in on this conversation (Ilyon and Aishia) and both have said, basically, the same thing. Ilyon (I don't think it would be a problem to make it caster only) and Aishia (anything that affects combat for other classes shouldn't be possible [both paraphrased]).
Others, seeking to circumvent the mechanical construction came in with their stereotypical 'you can't RP you should handle this through RP lolol' crap. That is when PK was brought up as a resolution, as PK = mechanical RP = RP. They are integral parts of the game, and both are acceptable. I am, overall, amused at the fact that people are defending keeping a skill that in no way, shape, or form, should A) still be in existence but since it is
work on most of the classes using it. She was a citizen of Bloodloch until they put in tethering. The class -is- tethered.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
However, Daskalos just said: "I have a problem with Undead\Vampires getting them, however, others would be everyone else because the same complaining has happened in the past when we had a Priest that would give us Spiritshields."
> My question is to you and others: What is more important, Undead and Vampires no longer receiving these spiritshields or would you prefer no one ever getting them but the user? And how would you feel about the artifact, granting the exact same, not getting this restriction? By extent, what should be done with the artifact?
Seir said: "Easiest solution here is to remove the outlier. It really doesn't make sense for either side to be going up in arms about one person."
> It may look to be the easiest, however I feel that could not be done without input from the affect person(s). By that same measure, hey an easy solution is to give every city the Epicurus statue, right? Since the artifact is also still there.
As an addendum, not a dig here but is Haven not an outlier as well now? Since he is not of a City he is also not tethered, technically. On the note of tethering I did not want to paste this because it's a wall but:
<br><br><br>SPIRIT UNTETHERED SHADOW<br>--------------------------------------------<br>Ascendril Lycanthrope Bloodborn<br>Shaman Monk Cabalist<br>Luminary Syssin Indorani<br>Templar Carnifex<br>Sentinel Sciomancer<br>Zealot Teradrim<br> Praenomen<br><br>City organizations are also considered tethered, and an individual may<br>not join a city if he or she has classes which are tethered to the<br>opposing realm.Also: "PvP'ers will always look to what gives them a mechanical advantage, roleplay be damned." + disadvantages. - I like this point.
In conclusion, we are never going to really find a way out of this without leaving some people upset, hit a snag or loophole (artifact) until we get some kind of input from the Administration.