Spiritshields

Lin

I pulled an @Arbre!

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Daskalos

You bid your angel strip a defence from Ishin.
His earth spiritshield defence is stripped.

Why do these still exist?!

Veovis

Daskalos said:

You bid your angel strip a defence from Ishin.
His earth spiritshield defence is stripped.

Why do these still exist?!

To annoy you.

Lin

Defence      : earth_spiritshield
Def Message  : You are protected by an Earth Spiritshield.
Description  : This defence exists to annoy Daskalos.

Daskalos

We need a HATE button. Just for you, @Lin.

Ishin

@Daskalos

[spoiler]
You are regenerating willpower at an increased rate.
You are regenerating endurance at an increased rate.
You are protected by the power of a Thermal Spiritshield.
You are protected by the power of a Frost Spiritshield.
You are protected by the power of a Earth Spiritshield.
[/spoiler]

Also, rage at drama. Good grief, go home.

Trager

Agree x10

Daskalos

I just have don't like it, on the basis that Spirituality\Healing\et al are life-aligned skills, there's few and far between, and it gives you access to defenses that aren't taken into account when balancing is done, but when a random priest wakes up suddenly they can be had. I wish they'd just make them applicable to the priest only and not bestowable on others. Especially spiritshields working on Undead.

I understand how it works mechanically, just don't like it from an RP standpoint, I've never liked the Lochian Priests and had hoped with tethering they would go away\be made not to work.

Ezalor

-Technically- they don't work, this Priest(ess) is just a rogue who happens to like Spinesreach I guess. The same sort of thing can be done (and has been done) with other opposite-side-tethered classes to generate an imbalance among side-vs-side PK. It's a meh loophole but I'm not sure anything mechanical can be done about it, up to the players to police that.

Xiuhcoatl

IIRC spiritshield is just a different form of miasma/warmth or should I say became basicly miasma and doesn't stack withe each other. That might have changed with the introduction of shell and the like. I'm also trying to remember something from an awfully long time ago and there's been a lot of changes since then. So my accuracy can not be the usual 100%. I'd suggest testing it. 

Xavin

Spiritshields are not just a different form of miasma/warmth and they've always stacked with miasma/warmth. Spiritshields are this:

Thermal 5% fire audit
Frost 5% cold audit
Earth 5% cutting/blunt audit

It's a relatively minor buff but it does add up and is largely unaccounted elsewhere.

Edit: The difficulty is the fact that previous admin teams allowed legacy classes that were removed from the active game to stay viable. Thus they always remain a factor even if they aren't supported like our current class sets. If they were to just outright nerf spiritshields, it could alienate very long time players of the game.

Riluo

This debate comes back every few years (over the last 10 years) and it always goes like this:

Join Spines  > Certain groups gets mad

Join Enorian > Nothing happens unless they give out a shield to random "non-Enorian"

Join Bloodloch > World flips a table, and they quit the game due to threats and OOC abuse. (I clearly remember this, it was full on and the perpetrator(s) know(s) without me pointing fingers.)

But at the end of the day they can rp/join where they want, it has no impact in my game experience so I am fine with it (I never once have ask for a "shield either) So if people want to harass them, then they need to think long and hard about their actions, as it is childish and only forces players to leave our community again. A little empathy goes a very long way!

Now my personal rage. Lag when I am fighting/hunting

Calipso

Daskalos said:

You bid your angel strip a defence from Ishin.
His earth spiritshield defence is stripped.

Why do these still exist?!

And so it begins...

Farewell Ayshireia.

Calipso

Daskalos said:

I just have don't like it, on the basis that Spirituality\Healing\et al are life-aligned skills, there's few and far between, and it gives you access to defenses that aren't taken into account when balancing is done, but when a random priest wakes up suddenly they can be had. I wish they'd just make them applicable to the priest only and not bestowable on others. Especially spiritshields working on Undead.

I understand how it works mechanically, just don't like it from an RP standpoint, I've never liked the Lochian Priests and had hoped with tethering they would go away\be made not to work.

What you should be asking is: -Why- does she feel more comfortable in Spines than she would in Enorian? Just my 2 cents.

Daskalos

The game is divided into Spirit\Shadow. In any form of RP, why would a buff that literally  requires you to CHANNEL SPIRIT work for Undead? Let healing continue to work on people, but Bloodloch threw a -fit- that we could bliss other people and give them the toughness defense if it wasn't something they had access to, because it was 'an extra damage reducing buff'. And Loch complained loud enough that bliss no longer gives defs to anyone but the owner.

This is the exact same thing, and should be treated as such, IMO.

Calipso

Daskalos said:

The game is divided into Spirit\Shadow. In any form of RP, why would a buff that literally  requires you to CHANNEL SPIRIT work for Undead? Let healing continue to work on people, but Bloodloch threw a -fit- that we could bliss other people and give them the toughness defense if it wasn't something they had access to, because it was 'an extra damage reducing buff'. And Loch complained loud enough that bliss no longer gives defs to anyone but the owner.

This is the exact same thing, and should be treated as such, IMO.

Well technically she isnt undead, thus she is able to channel spirit. Placing a defense on another, however, is a different matter.

Daskalos

My issue is not with her using the class on herself. Priest combat is gimmicky and ineffective (unless she's been getting Luminary Spirituality upgrades). The issue is her giving the shield defenses to others.

Ezalor

The effect of all spiritshields is less than the effect of the Epicurus statue. Only one city can have the Epicurus statue at a time and it hardly breaks game balance. It's really not as big a deal as it's being made out to be.

Daskalos

And yet bliss was made not to give defenses to the non-caster because Loch made a big deal out of it years ago. My thing is it's either all or nothing -- either defenses for a class stay with the class, or they don't. Un-nerf Bliss, or nerf spiritshields, from where I'm sitting. 

Ezalor

Bliss is a much bigger effect than spriitshields. I don't disagree that all these small combat imbalances should be removed (and that includes vampire sun maluses in non-vampire classes) but I think I'm in the minority there, and at the end of the day unless there are tons of them together they won't tip the scales of a fight.

Calipso

It's a very touchy subject.

The Healing skill itself is built around the idea of "caring for others". It has the general theme embedded in it of "The nurturing of the light". Making shields only affect caster may be a bit too much, since there are currently 5 types of shields, whereas I believe only toughness of bliss was affected. Could always make it that shields have no effect in combat, only against NPCs, if it is that much of a big deal.

Daskalos

The healing skillset -- that part of it  -- I don't have an issue with. My issue is that it was made a huge deal that toughness and fitness and what not from Bliss was too powerful to give to allies, because the argument was that 10% blunt was too  much for already tanky classes to get.  The spiritshields give already tanky classes extra tank. Toss out all the bad RP that goes along with Undead being layered with a 'spirit channel' fueled defense, it's the same argument.

If one was removed, the other should be to. Loch\Reach hated that classes could get toughness that didn't have it. They're suddenly OK with getting Spiritshields though (because the only priest is in Reach?).

It feels hypocritical for anyone to say 'bliss shouldn't give defs to the others' while defending SPIRITshields. All I'm asking is for equality. With the upcoming change to miasma\warmth\divine favors, these spiritshields make up the difference for one group, while the other side becomes squishier.

Xavin

Daskalos said:

My issue is not with her using the class on herself. Priest combat is gimmicky and ineffective (unless she's been getting Luminary Spirituality upgrades). The issue is her giving the shield defenses to others.

Priests get hit by every devotion and spirituality change unless it is specifically made to be a luminary-only change.

See, the reason people are getting ticked off at a priest in bloodloch/spines is that due to the class' spirituality skillset there is very little reason why a priest -should- be in spines or bloodloch. Now, I'm not saying that she shouldn't do what she wants because that's fine. Ultimately this game is about doing just that. However, I feel like it's an oversight that a class with spirituality and devotion isn't a spirit-tether class.

Alexina

Hitlershields?

...what is this I don't even.

EDIT:
To clarify: Randomly using Hitler to create a compound noun in a title might be meant in a humorous manner, but it's not exactly the sort of things I'd want my friends to see if I asked them to come over to try out a mud for the first time.

Ezalor

Teradrim are anti-Duiran by nature yet I seem to remember a rogue one helping out Duiran at lessers. There is very little reason why a Teradrim -should- be in Duiran. There's no one side that's solely guilty of metagamey stuff to help them out.

Ayshireia is not actually a citizen of BL or Spinesreach, just a rogue who hangs out with Spinesreach, so I'm inclined to believe that it is indeed tethered.

Daskalos

And the issue you brought up, Ezalor, was addressed. It wasn't just Duiran. At the exact same time that that was going on, Loch had a couple of Druids. Both sides were guilty of it, and it was all fixed with tethers.

She's not a citizen of Loch or Reach, which is the loophole. Ays was in Enorian until she kept giving out shields to undead\vampires ("I believe in the good of all people") and was kicked out. The Priest guild was -dissolved- because of this sort of behavior, and again, my biggest issue is that Bliss was changed to -remove- basically the exact same thing and everyone is saying 'oh, it's fine, she's a Priest, one of the last blah blah blah'.

Spirituality. Spiritshields. Devotion. There is no reason, whatsoever, in this tethered world that this should work with Undead.

And quite frankly, I think it's terrible RP on the part of anyone that takes them on that side. You are, literally, the antithesis to Spirit. Why would you want Spirit power coursing through you? And please don't give me the 'we use anything we can to our advantage' line. It's a flimsy justification for bad RP to give yourself a mechanical edge in combat. (note: the you in this last part wasn't address  to Eza, but a general 'You' to the shadow side).

Also: don't lump me in with Duiran. Enorian has generally held  ourselves to higher standards when it comes to letting classes in. Duiran has always been more gray, as has Reach. (though Loch has let in Druids, Priests, Paladins, as well).

Nalor

Ezalor said:

Teradrim are anti-Duiran by nature yet I seem to remember a rogue one helping out Duiran at lessers. There is very little reason why a Teradrim -should- be in Duiran. There's no one side that's solely guilty of metagamey stuff to help them out.

Ayshireia is not actually a citizen of BL or Spinesreach, just a rogue who hangs out with Spinesreach, so I'm inclined to believe that it is indeed tethered.

Think people are trying to put across make spiritshields only work on the person able to give them, EG only work on the priest! .. Like bliss works only on the giver etc @Ezalor .. Not the fact shes a rogue

Calipso

Ezalor said:

Teradrim are anti-Duiran by nature yet I seem to remember a rogue one helping out Duiran at lessers. There is very little reason why a Teradrim -should- be in Duiran. There's no one side that's solely guilty of metagamey stuff to help them out.

Ayshireia is not actually a citizen of BL or Spinesreach, just a rogue who hangs out with Spinesreach, so I'm inclined to believe that it is indeed tethered.

I have to agree, he has a point here. I specifically recall a Teradrim rogue assisting Duiran forces not very long ago, and it was considered norm, what with Teradrim also giving some significant 'bonuses' shall we say, to duiran combat.

Yes, she is not a citizen. Perhaps this could be solved IC by simply forces of light contacting her and attempting to persuade her to 'the light'. Dont resort to threats please >>.

Toz

@Daskalos, you use Syssin class.

'They are elite soldiers who wield the gifts of the God of Artifice Himself, trained in the arts of guile and deception.'

So you're rocking the gifts of Severn as a class skill. Teradrim in Duiran, Druids in BL, and now a Priest in Spines - this just keeps happening, and it seems like there's always another case of it popping up every once in awhile. Chasing it down and putting in a work-around for it doesn't seem to be stopping it, nor does ignoring it. So really, I have no idea what to do about it, but I do think it's such a minor event (at least in this case) that it's probably not worth bothering with. Admin could be focusing on other stuff. Like Carnifex revamps.

...Or fishing.

EDIT: Distracted by the thought of fish, no. Toz isn't the antithesis of Spirit, Toz just thinks you're all silly for clinging to rules. Ishin is a Syssin, he's gonna do whatever he wants. Shadow-alignment doesn't have any weird morals or strong belief systems that are built in like the zealotry of Enorian - we're the bad guys. We aren't, for the most part, lawful evil.

Daskalos

I have Syssin but don't use it. It's also considered a neutral tether class. Priests are not. Druids are not. Teradrim are not. Your argument doesn't make sense bro.

Toz

My argument makes perfect sense. There is a history of people (Druid in BL, Teradrim in Duiran, Priests/Paladins in Spinesreach, vamps in Enorian, you guys using an Indorani to raid the Carnifex GH, leader of Enorian having a 'neutral' class that specializes in Artifice) using things that they probably 'shouldn't'. They have tried to polarize this by enforcing more and more limitations, which does nothing but have people get more creative in getting around it to do what they feel like doing. You can chase down every single instance of this and run yourself ragged, or you can try to minimize it and accept that there'll sometimes be oddities. I'm not necessarily agreeing with you, or disagreeing, just noting that this isn't a one-time thing. There's a long history of these things happening, and the solution of 'patch it as they show up' seems to not be stopping it, so maybe other options could be looked at.

Summary:

- Just because you can do it doesn't necessarily mean you should (which is the case you seem to be making, at least partially, here).

- Mechanics trumps RP always

- People are going to do things that you don't agree with

- I'm a bad guy I can do what I want

- Put in fishing please