Holy Wars

Moirean

Just to cut off any bad feelings before they form, I wasn't trying to accuse Slyphe of griefing unnecessarily. His order - not just him - has been pushing for conflict, with things like shrines being erected inside Spinesreach. I do think that the holy war system is supposed to help us "fight" a god, however, as part of its intent. It's just not fun for anyone involved.

Daskalos

Toz said:

Which is exactly my point - there is no in between option, @Daskalos. Gods don't have a downside, it is the Order that has to deal with any consequences. It is like you getting pk'd for Plato doing something. It isn't 'wanting to always win', it is a frustration at only being able to lose.

There's on similarity there at all. If I got PK'ed because Plato did something, I'd PK Plato and the person that PK'd me, not whine and scream about it instead of trying IC resolution. I wouldn't go declare war on a city because I was wrong, or on an order. The Gods are the Gods, and perhaps some mortals, who have peeked behind the curtain a bit too much, forget that they are powerful beings. You can't win against them, all you can do is try to fight as best you can. Holy Wars aren't the reason for that. If you Holy War, it should be thought out, planned, and RP'd. Not a spur of the moment I'm angry rawr I'm gonna go PK a bunch of people by making them open PK, ruining the rest of their week because Holy Wars take a ton of time and I want to SHOW THEM WHOS IN CHARGE. I AM IN CHARGE UNICORN IT ALL AND I WILL FLOUT MY ABILITY TO NEVER SLEEP TO PROVE THAT I AM.

This is why I think Holy Wars should have a divine check on them, to make sure proper RP was put in place.

Daskalos

Moirean said:

Just to cut off any bad feelings before they form, I wasn't trying to accuse Slyphe of griefing unnecessarily. His order - not just him - has been pushing for conflict, with things like shrines being erected inside Spinesreach. I do think that the holy war system is supposed to help us "fight" a god, however, as part of its intent. It's just not fun for anyone involved.

Then why didn't your own order, or Slyphes, have any idea it was coming? 

Alexina

That's just one of the drawbacks of the holywar system, which I (and others) have been trying to point out. Even the holywars declared with a legit reason are generally speaking not fun. The whole surrender mechanism is just one part of it; sitting defiling/sanctifying for hours and hours on end is also really, really lame. This last war is not the source of the problem we're discussing. Or that's my opinion, at least.

EDIT:
I got ninja-posted. I was replying to Dask's post on the last page.

EDIT2:
Specifically this:
@Daskalos said: My problem with this is, it seems, like it was a -person- abusing their position to carry out a personal vendetta, reading the comments from both sides having no idea -why- it was declared, except a post that targets Dhar.

Moirean

Nevermind. Yes, Daskalos, I get it. You think I'm a horrible person. Whatever.

Toz

That was from the Order's perspective Dask, but glad you agree with me!

Essentially, if a god does something you dislike, you can only fight back by pking the Order or breaking shrines - both of which (as has been noted) doesn't actually discourage the god themselves - but it does piss off the Order. Which in turn creates a somewhat toxic situation where 2 sides can only really compete by trying to out-do one another with shrine grinding or, more likely, one side gets stomped into oblivion. And then we start over.

Teani

Still, @Toz, the main issue with that war was that no one was really involved in it other than the declaring part. No build-up for the entire Orders, no planning, no discussing, nothing. Just a declaration that left everyone saying: 'Huh, seems like we're at war. Do you know why? Me neither. Anything happen when I was sleeping? No? Post sounds a bit like it's personal, let's ask the other side what's going on. Huh, they don't know either, saying they are just following orders.'
Where is the fun in this, I wonder? At least if a Divine initiates the war, there is bound to be some kind of event prior to the declaration, even if it's just a few shouts between the two involved deities. Also, you have two active Divine fighting, so you can ask them for reasons.

Toz

Find me one instance of an Order War that wasn't entirely stupid. Was it when Haern went and declared on every darkie order one at a time? Or Iosyne declaring to strip monuments? What about Slyphe rocking an Order war before anyone could even log in to fight back?

But yeah, let's keep talking about the last war and how it was for silly/lame reasons as an excuse to not note the giant, glaring flaws of the system. That's cool too.

Amberlea

@Moirean I think you misunderstood what I meant with my statement. I meant it was clearly one sided in the way that we were going to get roflstomped. Our surrender achieved exactly the same result the war would have achieved if fought, except without the order members being killed 100+ times in the process.

I think part of the problem is that holywars are one of the only available conflict mechanics to begin with. It's the only conflict mechanic that I'm aware of that actually compels people to fight. Nobody has any skin in the game for Ciem raids. Cities in general do well enough with ylem that lessers seem to really be more pk for the sake of pk. There are no wars between cities, no wars between guilds. Holywars are the only thing in the game where you can throw down the gauntlet and say "I'm attacking the enemies of my ideals!", and that's the reason why it is so disappointing when they get shrugged off. They may be a unicorned grind, but they should be. Starting a war, or surrendering one, shouldn't be something to do lightly. If we had other ways to actually exercise the supposed tensions and conflicts between orgs we would maybe be able to live with an insta-surrendered war and say, welp, at least we gave em a good kick in the shin.

Periluna

Starting to think this thread has run its course...

Daskalos

I don't think anyone is saying they like the system as it is, Toz. I think what most people are pointing to is the most recent war as an example of WHY the war system was bad. 

And people want a war system back. Don't you people know it's just this cranked to 11?

Amberlea

My point was that right now, ylem is the only thing worth fighting over, and it isn't particularly flavorful. We don't fight over ylem because vampires are bad, or shadow is bad, or fire is bad, or spirit is bad, etc. There is no righteousness, there is no grand plan, there is no motivation. Lessers are a great mechanic for occasional skirmishes for those who feel like skirmishing, but they are totally bland as far as interorg interaction is concerned. Holywars have the flavor part, but the disparity between the activity and fitness of the different orders make holywars less than ideal for acting out the devotion our characters are supposed to have for our causes.

Rashar

@toz I think the problem here is that there are two separate arguments being made. The original argument was that the Holy War system is flawed, and I don't think -anybody- has disagreed with that, from what I've seen. 

The issue of whether or not the latest, or any wars really, were justified is a separate matter entirely, though it is obviously being argued here. 

Toz

War at least had potential for a more even fight. And was strategy in some degree instead of afk at a shrine for 30 min, and repeat.

Objectives should be flexible, conveying advantages and having an opportunity cost. Go raze a village loyal to a god or convert NPCs by preaching. Psycombat-style debates over a village, or persecute heretics by bashing them and defend against your loyalists being slain - just, something. May brainstorm more when not at work, but order war is the only way to handle a god doing something without spending a month planning some event that may get forgotten about/end up fizzling.


Edit: also? Last holy war had reasons behind it. Were not Iosyne-related reasons, but there aren't any other options.

Edit 2: didn't like it happening either. But bitching about it is whining at a symptom, not the root cause.

Elwyn

I think Periluna is right.

But I did want to say there was a lot of back and forth in Slyphe's order on whether we if should do it or not. In the end we didn't. I have been apart of a few order wars and usually some real reason was given as to why we were doing this and as far as I know there wasn't one.

I would be okay with it being changed to only.the actual God being able to make holy war happen. We are there to help our divine and then it we would always have reason.

Rashar

Edit: also? Last holy war had reasons behind it. Were not Iosyne-related reasons, but there aren't any other options.

...

So the Iosyne's Order declared a Holy War... but there weren't any Iosyne-related reasons.

Anyway. I'm done, before I get yelled at.

Ezalor

I hate the victim-playing here. I got chewed out by this very person for declaring a war to destroy monuments because I was using the Order as my personal weapon (despite there being several Order members who were affected and who very much wanted to destroy the monuments). And then there's a war for entirely personal reasons that aren't Order-related at all (a war the person didn't even show up for) which you are now trying to justify as fine. You can't have it both ways. Don't be a hypocrite.

Xavin

That's the thing. If you're going to declare a holy war, you better be sure that the reasons for doing it are related to your order. In the case of Haern declaring on Chakrasul and then Niuri, that was done because Haern said to Xavin 'Hey, I want you to back Dhar's order in their crusade. Declare on Chakrasul and Niuri'.

Edit: I get that some of Slyphe's former followers have a problem with his decision to push out the darkies from his order. I get the feeling that -that- is what this war was over, and to me that just...well, that's so unrelated that it just seems wrong.

Omei

Periluna said:

Starting to think this thread has run its course...

I agree entirely. For the record, we're aware that Holy Wars are lame. The best I can promise is an inevitably infuriating Soon™ on when we plan to address it, but rest assured, it will be addressed.