Bloodborn \ Liaisons

Daskalos

@Oleis, @Razmael, @Valdus -- I'm pointing this log out to you because I just don't get it. I know a liaison round is coming, but after looking at this log, none of the changes to Bloodborn addresses the crazy affliction rate and -stackability- of attacks they have. Plenty of nerfs were suggested by others on light side classes, but

http://hastebin.com/fevexiseqo.xml

A few notes: every time the BB takes damage, I received Haemophilia. He didn't even have to use his ritual that could of randomized my health and mana to give me uncurable recklessness. I also received passive afflictions from the wisp, which now being trackable, lets them track healing better, had insane hinders on me slowing down balance time, and had a ritual giving me -even more- passive afflictions in the form of rune flaring.

They can layer asthma on every attack, comboing it with two other affs. No other class in the game can do that by choice (Luminary slam has a hard locked second affliction because it was decided it was too OP for us to be able to combo slam with anything other than haemophilia... which BB get to do -passively).

Now, in looking through the approved liaison reports, I see:

A buff on whispers to no longer require ritual fade.

A cooldown on their vitality skill (what, this didn't exist?!)

A reduction of the cooldown on mindburrow (which he didn't even have to use, and is just as effective in team combat when multiple BB use it on you... yet Templar retribution is getting a nerf because of -its- team capability).

A shadowblow cooldown (will help -slightly-, but with a passive health\mana drain in the form of temptations, plus health and mana damage on every attack via slash\dwhisper, is all of that even needed? Again, no other class in the game can actively give you 3 afflictions, health, and mana at the same time.)

A ritual to bypass silence vibe (ok, so... one of the -few- defenses to bloodborn just got blown up).

Removal of pacifism as an affliction (could create a passivelock, but it's not even -needed-. Needed nerf, but a token one).

---

Don't get me wrong, other classes are getting buffs, but I played Templar solely because at the time it was the only class that could compete with BB. The tactics I used, such as maingauche, are being nerfed this round after it was attempted -last- round to nerf them. A rampage against passive curing was waged, as was nerfs to skills no one used as curing (bliss, anyone?).

It's an affliction overload and stacking scheme that is near impossible to handle without severe turtling (which does no one good, as it just makes it a 'who runs out of end\wp first).

I feel that the liaison system right now puts far too much stock in letting whoever can posture as the brightest to be the deciding factor. Ezalor is a brilliant fighter, and I'm taking nothing away from that. I respect the hell out of him, and he's beaten me in several classes. But when anyone can pick up BB, write an AI, and suddenly dominate -everyone- when they only ever had mediocre success in any other class, then I believe that's a tell that the class might be too powerful.

Ezalor

EDIT: Making this less aggressive, that was uncalled for on my part.

Eldritch, the recklessness thing, only fires for a few seconds every minute or so, so while annoying it's hardly permanent recklessness. I also didn't actually use it in that fight. What got you locked was Bloodmeld ticking, which is indeed OP and is also due for a change this round.

As far as someone randomly picking up the class and having great success with it, I'm not sure who qualifies there. Ashmer is the only other very successful 1v1 BB fighter I can think of and he does pretty well on his Luminary too. 

If anything this log confirms that the substantial health/mana damage BB can output against non-artied people is entirely manageable by artied people. Which is an unfortunate disparity between artifacted/non-artifacted, as a fully artied BB will indeed wipe the floor just with pure damage pressure against an unartied person.

Paralysis, stupidity, and confusion were all huge changes to BB going in this round as well.

I've also been going into my fights (not the one in that log though, in that one I was full throttle) without even really using the BB kill route - no mindsurge, lowering my strength by 7, not using epilepsy, etc and I've still been killing nearly everyone like that via truelock. That's an issue on the curing side of systems, as I'm essentially using only Weaponry and Mentis. I would actually have vastly more success doing what I am currently doing on Praenomen as that's more or less the same thing but adding a ghast onto it.

Daskalos

It's being reduced from 7s to 10s. That's a token nerf, as are most of the other nerfs. And I'm sorry, but -any- form of recklessness that lasts for 5 minutes before fading and randomizes health and mana is insanity. If I even suggested something for Luminaries I would get slammed, bashed, and insulted.

Ezalor

Again, it's not 5 minute recklessness. It lasts 5 minutes but only comes into effect for maybe 10 seconds every minute. Most of the time it's just there dormant. It's a very annoying skill that's a pain in the ass to code around but I really don't believe it's OP.

As far as Bloodmeld, I realize you can't see comments, but I did add this:

Ezalor: Also going to say that if solution 1 stays it probably should be slowed beyond 10s IMO.

I would guess it's going to be scaled up to 12s, same as Angel Care was.

Aishia

I think the biggest problem with Bloodborn is the overwhelming pressure from every angle. Huge damage and mana pressure, while pushing brutal afflictions. Top class active curing/healing: mend/fitness/purify/vitality. Extra escape skills via fade/mistform. Not to mention their far above average audit. For their raw offensive power they really do sacrifice nothing in terms of defense or curing. There's no real caveat of a weak point or hole in their armor. They get their cake and eat it too.

Daskalos

I've had it go active repeatedly on me. Is it random? How does it fire? When it does it makes you lose1-2 rounds of sipping because unlike recklessness, it will still trip curing. When you're playing at an edge against the big bleeding you guys can do. I maintain:  No other class can do the damage, afflictions, and mana attacks -active- that you guys can do. No one certainly gets that PLUS multiple passive drains as well... and don't seduction\temptation -also- work as -passive- healing for you, giving you some of the health\mana siphoned away? Also, care cures the affliction, but unless I'm misunderstanding, yours give it -back- to us?

Xavin

Aishia said:

I think the biggest problem with Bloodborn is the overwhelming pressure from every angle. Huge damage and mana pressure, while pushing brutal afflictions. Top class active curing/healing: mend/fitness/purify/vitality. Extra escape skills via fade/mistform. Not to mention their far above average audit. For their raw offensive power they really do sacrifice nothing in terms of defense or curing. There's no real caveat of a weak point or hole in their armor. They get their cake and eat it too.

I feel like maybe weakening some of this would be a good move game-wise, though I know it will be unpopular with a specific set of people and, unfortunately, will seem rather partisan.

Daskalos

Ezalor said:

EDIT: Making this less aggressive, that was uncalled for on my part.

Eldritch, the recklessness thing, only fires for a few seconds every minute or so, so while annoying it's hardly permanent recklessness. I also didn't actually use it in that fight. What got you locked was Bloodmeld ticking, which is indeed OP and is also due for a change this round.

As far as someone randomly picking up the class and having great success with it, I'm not sure who qualifies there. Ashmer is the only other very successful 1v1 BB fighter I can think of and he does pretty well on his Luminary too. 

If anything this log confirms that the substantial health/mana damage BB can output against non-artied people is entirely manageable by artied people. Which is an unfortunate disparity between artifacted/non-artifacted, as a fully artied BB will indeed wipe the floor just with pure damage pressure against an unartied person.

Paralysis, stupidity, and confusion were all huge changes to BB going in this round as well.

I've also been going into my fights (not the one in that log though, in that one I was full throttle) without even really using the BB kill route - no mindsurge, lowering my strength by 7, not using epilepsy, etc and I've still been killing nearly everyone like that via truelock. That's an issue on the curing side of systems, as I'm essentially using only Weaponry and Mentis. I would actually have vastly more success doing what I am currently doing on Praenomen as that's more or less the same thing but adding a ghast onto it.

So, basically, you wiped the floor with me using the -exact- same system you run without even having to use half your BB skills. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that you're not even having to try.... and I get that Ashmer is good at combat. You are too. I'm -not- saying that you aren't. But you're not a god... you couldn't beat Ashmer as a Templar. Does it not strike you as odd that neither of you can be killed yet both of you run the same class?

Your class gets to do things NO other class can do... and man, look, I get it. I -was- the best in this game years ago (a title I haven't claimed in a long time). I know you feel like you're being attacked, and that people are attacking your own ability when they attack the class... but we're really not. Everyone considers BB to be insane, save those that either don't have to fight BB often -or- who have the class themselves. You used to say 'do this mod, that mod, et cetera' to systems and you'll be fine. So I did that. Still got wiped. Then you fought Ashmer as a non BB and -you- got wiped. You and Ashmer can't beat each other, possibly, but class v class fights are almost always a stalemate. Edain and I have done the same thing multiple times lately.

Ezalor

Bloodborn is actually the squishest class I have, out of Templar/Praenomen/Teradrim. Tied with Syssin I guess. Not sure how it compares to other classes outside that. Purify blood is a 15s cooldown which is laughable compared to most of the other aff cures which have no cooldowns at all (although it does bypass paralysis). Mistform is garbage compared to lightform/darkwind, if you do use it you've taken yourself out for about a minute while you wait to earthmeld.

I don't mean to sound -too- full of myself but I am 100% sure if I was maining Templar or Praenomen or Syssin these threads would crop up all the time about those classes as well (actually I've only ever 1v1ed you in Praenomen Aishia. You've never seen my actual BB offense in a solo setting). Again, I've been handicapping myself to pretty much Weaponry + Mentis just to see what would happen and I still haven't lost yet. I don't really see any BB having success far above their ability either. Not to say there aren't issues with the class, but I do believe most are addressed in this liaison round.

As far as the Templar vs BB thing, you've seen my combat log in that class. It is full of inefficiencies in how I handle my commands and secrets procs was the main reason I was losing. I still managed to win a few fights against him, and I'm sure if I bothered to streamline it I could find much more success. I would actually say Ashmer's AI is better than my Templar one by quite a bit.

Daskalos

But that's what bugs me -- you're beating everyone because you're giving impossible choices. Do I cure asthma and let them vlock me, or do I cure impatience so I can focus? Do I cure epilepsy? Epilepsy + Stupidity is beyond insanity, combine it with anything else like berserking and it gets even worse.  You're not using only Mentis, though. You're still using Bloodmeld, your wisp is still firing, your other attacks are still firing.

New players flock to classes they believe are strong:

Guild               Novice Score       Member Score
------------------------------------------------------------
Syssin               0                    731
Indorani             1                    550
Luminaries           2                    535
Bloodborn            18                   502
Atabahi              0                    487
Carnifex             1                    442
Sentinels            0                    393
Sciomancers          0                    344
Teradrim             0                    329
Cabalists            1                    326
Daru                 0                    312
Sentaari             0                    262
Shamans              0                    192
Ascendril            0                    192
Templars             13                   85
Bahkatu              0                    77
------------------------------------------------------------

Those numbers sort of show it off there. You have people that want to be prototypical knights (but, perhaps also because Templar are good though the nerf stick keeps hitting them over and over again while BB are largely given token nerfs. This is, perhaps, what bugs me the most).

Aishia

I'm just referring to other Bloodborn @Ezalor! If I think they're OP imagine how I feel about you.

Alexina

Ezalor said:

Which is an unfortunate disparity between artifacted/non-artifacted, as a fully artied BB will indeed wipe the floor just with pure damage pressure against an unartied person.

If you are running full artifacts in a class that is supposed to deal at least a decent amount of health damage, should you not be able to outpace people with no artifacts at all? If you have no artifacts vs no artifacts and they outheal your damage and then upgrade to full artifacts vs no artifacts and they still outheal your damage, why would you be getting artifacts in the first place? If we are going to move combat to a state where you will never outdamage a person's sipping unless they have recklessness/anorexia, then a lot of artifacts should be removed or changed into bashing only. I might have misunderstood the point of your comment, but it seems to me like a decent balance that full artifacts vs full artifacts will deal with damage easily whereas full artifacts vs no artifacts at all should get damage pressured. There is a wide range going from nil to maxed out when it comes to artifacts, but these two extremes should function as described. Or am I missing something?



Re: Bloodborn

Just listening to more experienced combatants, Bloodborn seems to be one of the most powerful classes in the game. If the top combatants (Ezalor and Ashmer were mentioned in this thread) decided to main mage, monk, indorani or even teradrim, they would not have the same level of success as Bloodborn (or possibly even Templar/Syssin/Praenomen). In the hierarchy of classes (as in not taking peoples' skill into account), Bloodborn has a huge top potential that most classes simply do not reach. There are a lot liaison changes going in this round. I am not a combatant. I have no idea whether these changes will make combat more balanced or not at all. However, I can sympathize with the frustration some people must be feeling at the thought of fighting a class that, as Aishia so aptly put it, gets to have the cake and eat it. And have it.

Basically, the top tier potential of Bloodborn seems to exceed that of other classes. When people willingly nerf themselves by not using a class to its full potential or by fighting multiple people at once and winning, the class is either too strong or the person playing it has outmatched the entirety of Aetolia's combatant community. The former would constitute a problem. Or at least that is my opinion.


EDIT:
I would like to add that Templar nerfs are not relevant to this conversation at all. Bloodborns' capacity at murdering people are not in proportion to the amount of nerfs the Templar class has received.

Ezalor

@Daskalos I was full throttle, 100% in that fight against you since I was expecting to get teamed. You still ate my damage/mana pressure just fine, which is how it should be as I never fired off Mindburrow. It was a lock that killed you, though you did get out of it near the end right before you died. 

The choices thing you mentioned is not really a choice; Mentis affs (beyond confusion) are not going to kill you and you do not have to cure them. Confusion is a bit tricky, and I've always said vampires have a pretty big advantage over eq classes. I regret not putting in a report to nerf confusion/lethargy to something like 20% as they're really game changing affs that cannot be absolute priority cures.

Yeah I won a 1v2 but that was because they were both doing stupid stuff like trying to get channeled instakills on me. Daskalos and Dwodin handled me with no problems at all (and it wasn't close), so I wouldn't read too much into that one incident.

As far as my handicaps, the only reason I am able to kill anyone doing what I am doing is because of severe mistakes in their curing. I've reviewed each of my handicapped fights and in all of them I could pinpoint the exact moment someone lost because of a mistake they made in their curing. Fighting like this, I've actually found the specifics of how to break each of the common systems I fight against. The point of doing what I'm doing (beyond giving myself a challenge) is to prove that the core BB skills aren't the reason I've been killing people (if I didn't have my custom deathsight, you'd see that almost all of them are feed kills, not annihilate). The way I'm fighting is closer to Praenomen-without-a-minion than BB. I'm also not able to lock Feichin at all even going fully affing Praenomen, so it's definitely not an issue of just Weaponry + Mentis being too strong.

I do agree that paralysis/stupidity/epilepsy/pacifism can become way too hindery, but 3/4 of those are getting severely nerfed in the upcoming round and dodge upsets is getting hugely buffed against the only one that didn't get nerfed. I do think Bloodmeld is OP and it too is getting nerfed in the round. I do think that unartied people have a real tough time with BB, and I would ideally like to see it evened out more, but it should also be kept in mind that any fighting BB you see has spent at least 1550 credits to be able to fight in the class. Put that same investment in defensive artifacts and the damage should be handled just fine.

All of this is not to say I think BB aren't a top tier class, they definitely are, and some things currently on them are indeed OP, but they are hardly in a class of their own. I would put Templars and Syssin right on par with them (IMO both have better offenses than BB, however both are screwed by things like shed which BB don't care about).

I do get that these aren't personal attacks, I just get incredibly annoyed when misconceptions float around and never seem to die out. I've lost count of how many times I've had to explain stuff like why dwhispering while prone and Mentis biles aren't at all powerful, how to handle Praenomen, why vampires aren't super tanks, etc. I won't claim that my opinion is absolute fact, but I think I have a far more complete understanding of the class's strengths and weaknesses than most of the stuff getting posted. Just a year ago, with a version of Bloodborn FAR more powerful than the current one, I was getting destroyed by people (especially by another class everyone claimed as super OP at the time, Shaman). I've spent a loooooooooooot of time learning the ins and outs of the class and exploring just how far it can be pushed. My Templar is pretty successful and I've put in maybe 1/20 the amount of work into him as I have into Bloodborn. While I can't claim I have no bias at all, I do know the class quite intimately!

The only other two consistently successful 1v1 BB players I've seen are Rammus and Ashmer, and both would be absolutely terrifying no matter what class they played (ok maybe not Carnifex/Cabalist). It's really not like every random joe picks up BB and has a field day with it.

Moirean

Yes, because those of us who have been playing Aetolia for a decade haven't invested any time learning classes.

Irruel

@ezalor
Paralysis is being nerfed. This will affect both the BB and the class fighting the BB. I'm not sure how that will play out balance wise, and no amount of theory-crafting can ever say for sure.

Confusion is being nerfed - an affliction which is particularly useful against mentis users. So, same deal as paralysis in several of the matchups.

Later you mentioned how your self-cure is weak, though you did concede that it cures paralysis. Which in my opinion makes it up there with the #1 active curing abilities in the game (of the ones that use eq/bal, and are not vlock breakers). If you're paralysed and look to be staying that way, being able to spend your balance on something is golden. I really miss metamorphosis' "might" ability.



I'm not saying either way whether BB are balanced or not, as I am still not getting the most out of my classes. I do feel though, that BB damage-bleeding-manadrain is insanely high, especially when all those affs are pushing me to renew/focus frequently, or impatience is halving mana sips.

I took your advice and changed the way (tripwire) clots, to leave bleeding going for longer, and to sip mana long before health. When the BB selects hindering affs, I'm forced to cure them, or not attack back. Even if I cure them, I'm being hindered and can't fight back with decent momentum. Moss alone doesn't handle all of the health damage, and sooner or later I have to divert mana sipping to health.

Problem: this is all the BB needs to do. Eventually my mana will run down, and I have to cure slower because of that mana. This isn't actually a stalemate. Of course I can run to heal up, shield etc - it just seems as though the class has it all. I can't pick a weakness out as is possible with most classes.

Ilyon

Okay, so, this will probably surprise you, but I agree with the problem assessment, even though not for the reasons stated.

Bloodborn in itself isn't really the problem - the affliction combat in general is. If you look at the list of classes that are generally cited as the most powerful ones in 1v1, what do you see? Bloodborn, Templar, Syssin, maybe Sentinel (idk why so few people play that one) - all of them being affliction classes. Bloodborn just happens to be the most powerful of the bunch, but Ezalor's usage of the class clearly indicates that it's the affliction combat in general that is the issue - in short, it's too potent.

I've been mulling over some ideas in this regard, and I am likely going to throw a proposal on @Valdus some time soon, and I guess we'll see what happens afterwards - it is not a simple problem to solve.

To address a few random points raised here:

The upcoming paralysis/stupidity changes, as well as the other changes (not sure if it was announced, but BB will likely lose access to berserking), should also affect the situation quite a bit, even if they don't remove the underlying issue.

Bloodshield has a 10% proc rate, so either it's bugged or you got really unlucky there at the beginning.

Bloodmeld only transfers affs, it doesn't cure them.

On bleeding, we have reduced that one massively in the last round and serration is likewise gone - the class has a rather low bleeding output nowadays.

Riluo

I have noticed citadel over clots as do other pre-packaged systems. It is an easy fix too! As stated above bleeding got a major downgrade so it should not be an issue with correct clotting ever. In terms of Bloodmeld, it is op and we knew this hence it is getting nerfed along with the other stuff.

Draiman

I'm out of town and left my laptop, so all I have is my phone so I can't go get some fancy numbers, but it is literally impossible to kill anyone unartifacted as BB due up how slow the class is without at least a lvl 2 rune and a crown. Unless they're just sitting there afk while paused or d/c

Daskalos

Citadel overclots, yes, but Fortress does not since I rewrote the clotter in it using @ezalor's suggestion. I was still up to bleeding 576 at one point in that log

Draiman

Also, I just want to say, on the flip side of the argument, I've beaten every other incarnation of Ashmer as prae/BB/syssin (he's still hella good). The kit needs changed for sure, but I think it's more stupidity than anything, and it's getting nerfed, so let's wait and see how things play out before you all fuck people who can't afford to drop over $300 on the class to even use it.

Edit: Wording and added some ass kissing.

Daskalos

I think part of the issue with BB is the ease at which they can deliver asthma. Luminaries can also truelock (Templar cannot) but to pull it off, Luminaries have to first get at least two other kelp afflictions stuck on you (and remember, we can't combo asthma with anything because it was decided it was too OP). Then, we have to hope hellsight gives you slickness just to get the lock off. BB can deliver asthma every attack while doing 2 afflictions of their choice plus the other stuff, and I think that's a big part of it. Then, as Irruel said, yes there are some nerfs coming to other afflictions (stupidity was even my report) -- but as much as this helps other classes being able to HIT the BB, it also makes it harder to HINDER the BB which means any slowdown that could be delivered  currently will also be eliminated. I've asked in the past for the ability to wield a weapon and slash+chasten, which would be a weak version of slash+mentis and was shot down by many, many people saying it would be too OP.

Ezalor

@Irruel it makes the active cure more newb friendly, however I would 100 times out of 100 rather have an active cure that respects paralysis and has no cooldown over one that ignores paralysis and has a 15s cooldown. It requires you to be more aware of the situation and know when to use it but you should never actually get locked if you have something that cures 2 affs and has no cooldown if you're playing it correctly. I cite confusion as a mainly vampire affliction because no other class can stack it with the ease that vampires do. There is no other class that natively has confusion as a core part of their offense.

@Ilyon I'm not sure I agree that affliction classes > all, especially after the hindering changes. I just simply have no acumen with limb classes to be able to make a good judgment on them.

@Daskalos Luminaries and vampires are the exact same in regards to getting asthma stuck. If vampires get asthma and impatience stuck for one round they can slickness anorexia indifference to seal the lock. If Luminaries get asthma and impatience stuck for one round they can slickness anorexia to seal the lock. Weapon + Chasten would be OP because the Chasten aff pool is much deadlier for locks than the Mentis one (namely hypochondria). To call it a weak version of Weaponry + Mentis is just false after the Chasten buffs. Vampires can only deliver 1 kelp/paralysis aff per combo out of their 3 affs, Luminaries can deliver 2 every combo. I've actually noticed people using the weariness shield attack when their enemy has asthma on them, this is incredibly unnecessary and just giving your opponent an opportunity to cure out. It does require you to go "outside the box" a bit, but angel anorexia -> throw a dagger with slickness would be much better than relying on Hellsight.

Toz

Limb classes will remain fundamentally weaker than aff classes because of the lack of immediate hinder (even lycan struggles somewhat in that regard), and because it's not currently possible to precisely track limb damage without spending time using wounds. It's also roughly four times harder (or at least, according to Saybre's comments on the subject) to write a decent AI for them.

All that being said, if I knew how to get rituals to work etc. for classpick, I'd be in there calculating aff rates already - Tralendar started working on a project for that some time ago, but it hasn't been updated in awhile and no current liaisons have been messing with it so far as I can tell.

Daskalos

Ezalor said:

@Daskalos Luminaries and vampires are the exact same in regards to getting asthma stuck. If vampires get asthma and impatience stuck for one round they can slickness anorexia indifference to seal the lock. If Luminaries get asthma and impatience stuck for one round they can slickness anorexia to seal the lock. Weapon + Chasten would be OP because the Chasten aff pool is much deadlier for locks than the Mentis one (namely hypochondria). To call it a weak version of Weaponry + Mentis is just false after the Chasten buffs. Vampires can only deliver 1 kelp/paralysis aff per combo out of their 3 affs, Luminaries can deliver 2 every combo. I've actually noticed people using the weariness shield attack when their enemy has asthma on them, this is incredibly unnecessary and just giving your opponent an opportunity to cure out. It does require you to go "outside the box" a bit, but angel anorexia -> throw a dagger with slickness would be much better than relying on Hellsight.

Luminaries have no reliable way to deliver slickness unless they throw a dagger, with hellsight it's 'pray its the random aff it delivers first'. You would have to sit on angel battle to pull that off, reducing your affliction output while doing so since anorexia is deliverable via battle which is available only ever 5 seconds. Luminaries can do weariness\hypochondria in a round together, but cannot combine asthma with any other kelp afflictions. The log speaks on itself. Tell me where I could of cured better and I'll happily make the changes and we can try again. The fact is, with near perfect curing, I couldn't come close to keeping up because of your hindering offense, ability to throw out impatience, indifference, anorexia, slickness, paralysis, and asthma on whim. It's the amount you do, and it seems like your other liaisons agree that there is a problem.

I would, personally, love to figure out the full aff rate of every class, as too often people say 'well, don't count this because it's useless' like has been said about the wisp. The thing is, it's not useless, it consumes an herb balance. It's a rotating sleight. 

Haven

Honestly, Luminary offense is solid right now with the chasten upgrades, ignoring the rebounding issues the class suffers currently. While we can't reliably afflict slickness at a consistent rate, hellsight is potent enough to cover the gap in my opinion. It's just super annoying coding wise never being quite sure if slickness is stuck or not if the opponent did not apply sileris/bone marrow because it affects whether anorexia is cleared or not if they're applying salve since you're allowed to apply despite being unable to cure anything. Just keep asthma on them with hellsight going and it's game over one way or another.

That said... the problem I've found as a Luminary versus a Bloodborn, or really the Bloodborn in general against any class is that the Bloodborn not only attack you on all sides simultaneously without a readily apparent weakness if they're artifacted, but their offense also hinders the hell out of you between paralysis, epilepsy, stupidity, and confusion.  If your class cannot remain optimal or secure a kill or effectively hinder the BB enough while constantly under these afflictions, then you cannot beat an artifacted Bloodborn period.

If you pause to cure any of these afflictions so that you can resume optimal affliction pressure, you open yourself up to a venom and or true lock within 2 if not the next round and there is little you can do about it except eat the abuse. Ignore confusion and you open yourself to an ashlock but even if that won't be the case anymore with the liaison changes, you're still fighting at a pretty severe disadvantage if you're an EQ based class. I'm inclined to ask that Mentis be made to also respect shield so that there is an option for a moment's reprieve...

But since they are changing stupidity and paralysis though, I'm willing to wait and see how that pans out because the BB hinderability is essentially cut in half. With paralysis not being such a huge blocker means that there's one less herb you need to prioritize and asthma will become the new norm. Which won't be so bad since it means you've a round of breathing room or maybe more depending on when paralysis fully sets in.

That's my take on the whole situation.

Ishin

Syssin is undeniably at the top for affs-per-sec as far as any class goes. The crux with Syssin is a lack of damage and the fact that we're not very tanky at all, and hypnosis has a downtime between chains that can really only be modded by crown+charm. Either by itself just isn't worth it.

Affliction classes are probably 10x easier to code in than a limb class(I count lycan as an aff class, despite its limb-destroying type offense, because you have a very clear-cut method to damage limbs up to the point. breaks from rend and hamstring, mangle, destroy, each pushing a limb to the next thresh-hold in a pretty easy-to-track manner. The only time I've ever found Lycan to be remotely ambiguous is with head/torso work.

Honestly the reason I've never picked monk back up again, and have never considered actually pvping with it, is just because you basically CANNOT track limb damage without doing WOUNDS <whoever> and eating up a unicornload of time you could be better spending attacking.

Riluo

Ishin said:

.....

Honestly the reason I've never picked monk back up again, and have never considered actually pvping with it, is just because you basically CANNOT track limb damage without doing WOUNDS <whoever> and eating up a unicornload of time you could be better spending attacking.

This is why I dropped it too. If there was a better way to track I would grab it again in a heart beat.

Ishin

@Riluo I actually find the need for bal/eq for WOUNDS to be rather redundant. I can quickassess someone off-bal and I can contemplate someone without taking bal or eq at all, so I mean...I don't really understand why WOUNDS was put in on that to begin with.

Serrice

Syssin can run with a shield which makes them fairly durable + weaving. Like, really durable.

Haven

Yeah, I agree with @Serrice. I'd say clumsiness and stupidity are really the only banes to Syssin combat right now aside from how unwieldy hypnosis and weapon swapping can be. Otherwise they're a really strong class.

I thought lethargy might be pretty bad too but they can just add that to their stack too so... >>

Edit: And I guess shed but I'm wondering if an ashstack for disrupt would be a nice counter.... Though with confusion moving to the top in the liaison round, ash stacks are rendered moot outside of truelocks. Unless they shift concentration block to another affliction like hallucinations...

/rambling

Xavin

Haven said:

Yeah, I agree with @Serrice. I'd say clumsiness and stupidity are really the only banes to Syssin combat right now aside from how unwieldy hypnosis and weapon swapping can be. Otherwise they're a really strong class.

I thought lethargy might be pretty bad too but they can just add that to their stack too so... >>

This becomes even easier with server-side queuing, particularly with the ability to chain commands in the queue.