Punishing activity

RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 490 ✭✭✭✭
It's been almost six months since the new changes to death xp was instituted and I can't help but think it's had a negative impact on actual mechanical activity. The more people try to hunt, the more people who I talk to that go and complain about the xp loss rate. The more I hunt, the more I talk with people who are hunting.... the more I come to the conclusion that these changes are actually meant to do more than punish death. It's meant to punish player activity in the form of PVE. It's meant to force people to roleplay/emote, due to the fact that death is an inevitability (unless you just emote/roleplay) and to make them feel like its not worth it to hunt for experience.

What I mean is this.... that the flat rate of 1% xp loss escalates as you increase in level, which increases the higher you get. At level 100, you'll lose about 35k experience, at level 125 you'll lose about 117k, at level 150 you'll lose about 400k xp, at level 175 you'll lose at least 1M xp. A lot of bashers I talk to hate this concept because depending on our level (and experience boost), it can take anywhere from 1-7 hours to get everything back. We (the consistent bashers (while being a minority)) bash because we like the increase in numbers, we like to feel as if we're progressing in level and experience. We bash because we want our level rank to increase. Most current consistent bashers bash because they want to get to level 200 and become the next person to achieve this accomplishment (Coribhell, Trikal, Isia, Wylliam, Neron).

While yes, XP is just a meaningless number to the vast majority of the populace. XP means a lot more than that to those of us who actually enjoy bashing. However, we are being punished for actually enjoying something more than just mindless emotes or sitting in a room for hours on end and talking with people. We enjoy going out there and grinding, committing genocide of entire areas, slaughtering entire villages or a plethora of animals. We like the feeling of seeing that number go up just as much as a crafter loves seeing their design approved or as much as a roleplayer loves seeing new people to roleplay with.

We don't get that satisfaction anymore because of how much experience we lose when we die. Instead, we get frustrated, we get flustered, we get angry, and we don't want to do what we love doing. Everyone says death didn't mean anything which is why the change happened. Of course death doesn't mean anything. In this game, we're essentially an immortal mortal. We know this game doesn't have permadeath that some MUDs do, we know we're going to come back. We know that its just a small timer before we rise back up and are wandering around Sapience again.

So why would it matter how much/little experience someone loses on death? To punish their activity.
Should it matter that you die on a hunt? No.
Should it matter that you died because you angered someone? Maybe.
Should it matter that you died in an enemy city? Absolutely.

There are circumstances that would be suited for extreme xp loss (dying in an enemy city which is likely due to the fact that you're raiding). However, what we have now is an extreme xp loss for death as a whole... which is punishing to those who actually want to hunt, or do something more than just be a drone for roleplay circumstances. This is punishing to a point where the people who DO enjoy hunting... are slowly reaching the point where we don't and we don't even want to login and play because what we love doing is no longer a viable option.

Additionally, I even talk to people (people who don't use forums or even those who are shy about their opinion because they feel that it doesn't mean anything nor would change anything) who will take lower level people hunting just to powerbash them to level 100 and even they tell me that they hunt the low level areas that offer the lowest risk of death possible because, they too, do not want to die and lose a massive portion of their xp. And they hunt the low level areas, because even though they aren't a consistent basher, they like seeing their newbie levels rising instead of dropping because of death.

Some would argue that the promo item effigy makes this all meaningless. But the effigy as an artifact is a joke. 25 credits for a single use item is, at best, just a con. An item like this would best be suited as a gold/multi-use item instead of something that is just as expensive an a chalice (which can be used for 24 hours). Additionally, with the new changes the soulbind artifact is made effectively useless because you'll save 35% of 1% loss. Which at level 150.... is only about 15k xp, give or take a couple thousand.

As a solution, I would suggest changing xp loss back to the way it was before. Or even reducing it to a lower flat rate. 100k xp loss (this is at most, 30-60 minutes of bashing for anyone) for dying a normal circumstance (PVE/PVP), but keep the 5% xp loss staying for dying in an enemy city (because again, you're likely raiding and people don't like it when you do).



  • IsiaIsia Member Posts: 3
    He makes good points here, I've had meltdowns and rage qq'ed several times over this 
  • ChurchChurch Member Posts: 54 ✭✭✭
    I'm sure my opinion on this is going to be unpopular among the real bashers and upset someone on a core level - I would like to apologize dearly for that in advance as it is definitely not my intent and I'm not here today to troll anyone. Okay, disclaimer end, here we go.

    On the one hand, I am absolutely baffled by this:
    Rhyot said:

    However, we are being punished for actually enjoying something more than just mindless emotes or sitting in a room for hours on end and talking with people.

    Like... what? In 13 years of IRE games, all I've ever done to bash is turn on a script and chat with people on clans, instant messaging programs, or what have you while I watch the script run. Even if you bash manually (which I doubt anyone saying they're "serious" about the activity does"), there's no way you're entering more than 5 unique commands, excluding directions, inside any given trip - and all of this is in remote areas where no one else is even going to know you exist. Bashing alone doesn't add any more to the atmosphere of the game as a whole than me sitting in the top of the Ascendril lighthouse emoting to an empty room about how sad I am (real story).

    I don't believe for a moment that 1% loss is meant as a personal attack on people who like to bash or as any kind of punishment for doing so. It is most certainly intended to draw a line between high-performance and low-performance bashing, in my humble opinion, and help to preserve the sanctity of the ever-vaunted Level 200 Crown of Amazingness achievement. Removal or marginalization of this experience loss would ultimately trivialize the task of people like me, who don't even like bashing that much, eventually reaching level 200 and becoming Albedi Spaghetti Monsters (or your 1000x endgame super-race flavor of choice). If you're going to be an unstoppable murder lord, burninator of villages and the general countryside, in the mechanics and (semi-important) overall lore of the game... I guess it kind of makes sense to me that you actually be either unstoppable or have the foresight to avoid the things that can stop you. In short, I suppose what I'm saying is that having such a penalty is the only thing that makes the achievement matter more than "I let my client run a bashing script for 6000 hours."

    On the flip side, I understand being frustrated about things, trust me. Pure liquid rage is my own body's substitute for the percentage of water present in most humans. I definitely agree that the effigy currently being sold is absolutely laughable as a solution to the problem presented here and, if I were the type of person targeted by its implementation, I would be quite insulted. It's a good start, though, and my suggestion is as follows:

    Change the effigy to be a permanent item sold in three tiers, like many other artifacts. Or keep the current effigy as a 25cr bandaid and still add these, whatever. These items only work for their owner and cannot be added to other artifacts. I'm not a pixel economist so I won't pretend to suggest prices.

    Tier 1: a wicker effigy of : Can hold a maximum of 1 charge. Every six hours, gain a charge that will be expended upon the owner's next death to negate the experience loss of dying.

    Tier 2: a blood-stained effigy of : Can hold a maximum of 1 charge. Same effect as the wicker effigy, but also gains a charge after 100 kills of mobs that grant experience.

    Tier 3: a gilded effigy of : Can hold a maximum of 1 charge. Maintains the cumulative benefits of the previous tiers, but can alternatively be granted a charge at a cost of 25,000 gold using MELT GOLD ONTO EFFIGY.

    tl:dr I get why you're frustrated, I'm sorry this happened to you, I don't think it's a personal attack, I think there are better ways to address the issue, at least it makes your achievement more special
  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even as someone who gives very little unicorns about XP - I tend to agree with the sentiment here.

    I don't agree with the extrapolation that there is any intention by the admin to punish people being active, as the change seemed to be an attempt to give death some meaningfulness: it just failed and unequally affects those who enjoy bashing and XP gain.

    Taking away XP when you die is frustrating when the primary way to gain XP endangers you. Sitting and having to wait to come back from the dead is boring. Boredom is frustrating. Increasing XP loss in PvE doesn't make you feel like death had any more impact on your character or improve the player experience, it just makes you feel like treading water in the grind.

    I would rather see non-XP-related consequences for death. While I am inclined to argue against differing effects from death depending on where you died (via PvE or PvP or locationally specific) because 'oh no my precious, precious immersion! My fantasy world must make sense!' the RP-whore in me realizes I could just as easily come up with an ad-hock IC justification of 'magic that your character doesn't understand' (e.g. being labeled an enemy actually casts a magical effect over the city that lingers with your body if you die there after resurrection).
  • SaritaSarita Empress of Bahir'an The Pillars of the EarthMember Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For people who are worried about there being too many level 200+ characters, I think it is worth noting that Aetolia opened almost 17 years ago, and there is still only one person to reach it. That was before the current death changes when it was easier to die and regain the lost XP.

    I imagine that the higher losses for things like raiding cities are in place to make sure that's it's not something that just happens all the time, and so that PK is taken a bit more seriously, and I'm fine with that.

    That said, if you are bashing beyond a certain point (after getting max racial perks or whatever, especially) you are in a very small minority, and you are usually doing it specifically because you really like that aspect of the game. I'm inclined to say that the admin aren't trying to punish that small segment of the population in particular, but as an unintended consequence, it's still very real. I wouldn't mind seeing a hard XP loss cap put in place for higher levels where people are most likely doing it because they really enjoy the PvE aspects of the game.
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