Should guards be toned down?

Aarbrok · May 2015

I think the general conflict environment to that regard has slipped due to the mechanics of war really reducing the City on City conflict. We have nothing to gain from it aside from rustling the jimmies of an opposing faction, so for lots its a fruitless endeavor if they do not fancy combat specifically.

I know in Spinesreach we will do what our commanders and generals ask because we have Spirean pride. Though in Duiran its going to be relative to someone protecting interests of a Roleplayed conflict, primarily these are admin events since the hayday of Duiran left with the Sibatti regime during wartime Duiran.

Enorian on the other hand, is anti undeath and the cycle, so obviously this puts them in a position against the faction which is their adverse, Bloodloch who is far more apt to combat ability and ranks than those of roleplayed Zealot and Lightbringers in Enorian.

I think if there was a structure to the raid aside from the fighters wanting to fight, and the defenders being forced to defend - It would be more fruitful, but for now its satisfying a want for one side, and an obligation due to roleplay choice for another...because that is where the shift in things has placed the current state of the game.

These are symptoms of a low population and lack of objective, where the fighters have mostly banded together to a specific faction to fight and roleplayers to the other to roleplay. Spinesreach is an anomaly that thrives off of its charisma.

Jensen · May 2015

Serrice said:
I like listening to sea shanties. I don't like hanging out with large groups of people for too long. I like ESO. I like being swept away and RP with a really good writer for hours at a time and write nice long blocks of text and develop and build a uniquely Aetolian character.

I don't understand how people that can't be fun - no, I actually do understand that other people are different and enjoy other things and play this game for different reasons.

It's fun to you, and I'm sure it's fun for some other people out there like maybe Trager, just like how I'm sure there's people that can't stand exchanging paragraph long blocks of text for 8 hours and think it's silly and stupid.

But I'm not going suggest a mechanic that says you have to do that for hours at a time, nor am I going to suggest that if you don't do it, and if you don't do it well enough, you're going to take mechanical penalties. How absurd would that be?

You. Don't. Have. To. Participate.

Ignore people that goad you into fighting, and as for your own citizens.... Idk what's going on in Enorian but it sounds awful. I remember frontline being toxic, but every time light culture gets brought up it sounds terrible.

I'm honestly sorry you have to deal with that.

Jensen · May 2015

Aarbrok said:
I think the general conflict environment to that regard has slipped due to the mechanics of war really reducing the City on City conflict. We have nothing to gain from it aside from rustling the jimmies of an opposing faction, so for lots its a fruitless endeavor if they do not fancy combat specifically.

I know in Spinesreach we will do what our commanders and generals ask because we have Spirean pride. Though in Duiran its going to be relative to someone protecting interests of a Roleplayed conflict, primarily these are admin events since the hayday of Duiran left with the Sibatti regime during wartime Duiran.

Enorian on the other hand, is anti undeath and the cycle, so obviously this puts them in a position against the faction which is their adverse, Bloodloch who is far more apt to combat ability and ranks than those of roleplayed Zealot and Lightbringers in Enorian.

I think if there was a structure to the raid aside from the fighters wanting to fight, and the defenders being forced to defend - It would be more fruitful, but for now its satisfying a want for one side, and an obligation due to roleplay choice for another...because that is where the shift in things has placed the current state of the game.

These are symptoms of a low population and lack of objective, where the fighters have mostly banded together to a specific faction to fight and roleplayers to the other to roleplay. Spinesreach is an anomaly that thrives off of its charisma.

Spinesreach put forth -a ton- of effort to ramp up combat. Mostly was Moirean doing incentives, classes, and building reward structures. And in time it became combat savy enough to beat BL in that combat tournament. I can't actually recall any other time where spines had as many fighters or even people willing to fight.

Aarbrok · May 2015

I mean no disrespect to other orgs.... But they dont have the charisma or energy that Moirean gave Spinesreach initially to do that.
She drove herself ragged to build an empire out of Spinesreach, and we run with it now as players kind of taking a page from her book so to speak.
We have been bred to flourish in that kind of environment and it really is what we represent as a city.

I don't know if we can compare apples to pinecones in this comparison, but she was kind of an entity of her own.
I would love to see other Cities have that kind of charisma, but as I stated in my post @Jensen - Spinesreach is an anomaly.

I can name a handful of players who had that charisma, and during those times the cities they rules were in their prime.
If we think about it, that is what has made the great powers flourish, maybe we are running out of that...I am not sure.

@Sibatti
@Gepideth
@Daskalos
@Moirean
...I am sure there are more, but I recall some loud mouths - energy - charisma during my time playing from these folks...pushing the envelope to make their cities work hard and do something awesome.

Trager · May 2015

What, we can't like both, @Serrice?!

Benedicto · May 2015

Yeah I think it was just me, Dask and -maybe- @Valingar? You needed to be willing to die a couple of times to create a one room breach and then it was all just gravy from that point on!

Toz · May 2015

I had a long rant about how conflict got killed by people not knowing how to handle losing, but instead I'm gonna say this:

- Game is divided because conflict is central to the plot.
- There is currently 0 real, meaningful means of creating a conflict.
- The game suffers when nobody has a reason to care.

I remember logging in ASAP to check on war status. I remember staying up late at night for raid defense or, once, staying awake all night to raid Spinesreach at 4 AM. This was *fun*. A potential reason people are leaving the game/afking/not really doing anything at all (something everyone has complained about recently) is that nobody has a reason to log in now. Go to a lesser, code some system stuff, qq a little sooner than yesterday is how things on Aetolia go.

To those who say 'go create conflict if you want it!' - screw you. I tried to create conflict and got bawwed down. I tried lots to create conflict and got bawwed down. Or rolled over. Usually both - like the time I walked to Jaru to see what was going on there (due to an event with Jaru getting restored) and they sent 17 people to kill me/Mazz/Borsc, after an admin set an unkillable npc on us. And then the forum tears about how we were ruining things. The time the Carnifex tried to set up a village raid and got yelled at for interrupting lifer RP. The time Carnifex took someone to Tainhelm to make them prove loyalty and did a shout, we were horrible bullies for picking on people. If you don't enjoy combat, *fine*. Don't show up. Go afk in your haven, burrow, go RP cowering in fear or plotting horrible revenge, whatever - but handle it IG. Quit pressing for things to get easier and give me back something to actually do with my day other than afk, code or mudsex plz. I came to this game looking for competition and vicious team fights, not cuddles.

Areka · May 2015

Changing guards (again) and returning to an era of raiding grief is NOT a fix to that problem. You can throw in all of this argument about global conflict but it is not a fix for it, nor an argument for it.

It would be really great if instead of advocating for a change of one-sided fun ya'll could help with a conversation about what things you find appealing (unless that's the only thing you enjoy) and we can brainstorm some things that consider BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT to give Admin some things to chew on.

Edit: And it's really easy to hold that stance and advocate it when you're the aggressor.

Edit Edit: If you want conflict, that requires a full discussion. Right now it sounds more like ya'll want it to be easier to punish an org whose majority playerbase does not enjoy the same things that you do, so you want to force it. If we had as many people inclined to raids, you'd already be getting more of that kind of conflict you're advocating for.

Ishin · May 2015

A FUCKING MEN TOZ

Toz · May 2015

Again, I prefer to be the defender.

City raids with mechanical end-games and nerfed guards give you the best of both worlds - slap a cooldown on how often you can mechanically raid to get rewards and you've got a limiting mechanism that prevents hours and hours of raids daily but lets us get our fix of fun. And yes, fun - a lot of us ENJOY conflict, and ENJOY raiding, be it attacking or defending, not that such a concern seemed to bother other people when they got something a lot of people enjoyed taken away because they didn't.

Conflict that has people feel like it matters (yes this means someone actually loses) pushes people to try to get better, which causes people to get better which causes power shifts. Duiran went from getting their teeth kicked in to a powerhouse, I got to be a small part of that ride to the top and it was addictive as all hell. Spinesreach was the underdog for years and years and years and there was a push because it *mattered* for them to get better, and now there are more Spirean fighters. If you don't push, and you don't give people a reason to care? If you don't get them really, truly excited (and give them something to get excited FOR), then it's never gonna work.

Are raids the end-all be-all of this? No. But enabling raids and re-introducing some small amount of danger to a world that has practically padded every sharp corner WILL be a step in the right direction.

Jensen · May 2015

Toz said:
Again, I prefer to be the defender.

I really do too. You get to organize a defense aaannnnddd get to go hunt them down later.

Areka · May 2015

Camping out in some dormant character's house for hours is not the same thing as meaningful conflict.

So how about let's talk about ideas instead of further demonstrating that the existing styles of conflict create bad feelings (both in judgements as well as desire to engage) OOC as well as IC.

Having objectives would go a long way, be it king of the hill/capture the flag type stuff or otherwise (different types of areas with certain goals, different kinds of defenses to create different kinds of challenges - oil the roofs so you slide along them with less control vs nets and bottlenecking to hinder/give some time that isn't reliant on guard pwning).

Mephistoles · May 2015

@oleis Here is an idea for you. Perhaps we could weaken guards when they're not being directed or captained. That is, you could add some sort of syntax that allows players of certain city rank to recruit and direct guards, but limit the number of guards that can be in one room, or balance the number of guards with the number of players in one room. In essence, if there are 10 defenders following in a group you direct/use fewer guards. This way there can be some balance between cities with lots of people and those without, making raiding more even. At the same time weaken guards when they're not being lead by an individual. This would lead to a more active system of attacking and defending.

Lim · May 2015

Let's leave raiding aside for a moment.

I'd like to express my support for Oleis' suggestion on the assumption that it would make hits/assassinations more viable.

Not entirely sold on raiding since raiding currently lacks objectives (while hits/assassinations don't).

Complete immunity from harm is lame. It allows people to mouth off without fear. If allows them to hog temporary artifacts for three hours (some of us don't have the luxury of playing three hours a day). It is unrealistic and codling.

At least instil the fear that if you go too far, someone is going to come in after you to pluck you from behind your mother's skirts.

Jensen · May 2015

The funny part about those "immunity" zones is that if you have syssin class you can just wait them out. Eventually they hit a house, a guild, or city portals. then you hit. Used to be my favorite part of PVP. Tangent aside, I will concur that raids require an objective and a time limit.

Mephistoles · May 2015

Jensen said:
Tangent aside, I will concur that raids require an objective and a time limit.

I'm pretty sure that this was mentioned before but this is a good idea for guard adjustment too. Raiding/defending could be improved by having the guards weakened significantly initially but their power ramping up with time as long as there are unphased enemies in the city. That would definitely put a time limit on raiding.

Lim · May 2015

Jensen said:

The funny part about those "immunity" zones is that if you have syssin class you can just wait them out. Eventually they hit a house, a guild, or city portals. then you hit. Used to be my favorite part of PVP. Tangent aside, I will concur that raids require an objective and a time limit.

Well not every kill should be a headshot from a sniper. Sometimes you want a drive by. Sometimes you want to walk in and send a message.

Jensen · May 2015

I never sniped, I used to wait until they were all alone, and I sealed a super long hypno chain, unphased, and killed them. If they were in portals, I'd hypno them into a gank squad.

Lim · May 2015

Yeah, I meant it metaphorically. I've done those too.

The flavour is very different from when someone is mouthing off, and then you walk in, guards beating on you, and you just walk up to the fella and beat him to pulp.

You know like a scene from a movie where the guy is holed up in a room, there's a ruckus of fighting and gun fire outside, screams, and then everything goes quiet and you wonder if the guards managed to get him. Then the door opens.

Angwe · May 2015

Remember that time I ran into Spines while enemied just to punch a guy? Good times.

Jensen · May 2015

Angwe said:
Remember that time I ran into Spines while enemied just to punch a guy? Good times.

You mean every single time you used the track skill?

Aishia · May 2015

I think 90% of the problem is just the fact that the majority of the time raiding is just 4am griefbashing all the guards. The times you remember it as fun are not the times where it's really representative of the actual outlook of most of raids undertaken. I really can't remember a raid in recent history where it wasn't something underway when I logged in early in the morning to find going on vs an empty org. Which is a problem that would only be exasperated by changing the current system to favor the raider more.

Rashar · May 2015

Agree 100% with what @serrice and @aishia said.

It's not really relevant to argue for what used to be - the player base used to be 12 and write absurd public posts and rp orgies in the Black flagon because they'd never had sex irl and it was exciting.

Duiran used to be powerful, sweet. So did Japan.

I've been playing for a while now and the entire duration of that time has been clearly one-sided. There isn't any disputing it. We did spreadsheets and tracked every combat participant for months and gave you numbers and you still argued it. For all the work we've done cleaning up the atmosphere and building incentives for pvp, the fact of the matter is -most people that play good guys don't want to pvp-.

If you want, I'll start raiding Spinesreach and you guys can go back to having a full set of guards. But I'll only do it at four in the morning when you have nobody online and everyone can just sit in their home or their haven and skype other people and be like God raiding sucks so bad why are they being trolls right now.

@jensen, I like you, but for a guy that always wants to be administered a dose of fun conflict I -still- have yet to see you do anything -yourself- about it beyond talk. You sit in Spinesreach and you RP being an evil villain. Go out and be one? It's like Ishin rolling around talking shit all day working on legacy reputation. Do we not strike out of fear? Not hardly. The truth is, the words are empty because we know you're going to be idling at the Inner Gate or your shop in 15 minutes unless someone in the Pools holds your hand and drags you to something 'meaningful'.

Prove you can create fun and sustainable conflict on your own without being griefy, and maybe they will have a reason to take some of the pads off. Talking shit about how weak the other half of the game (who mostly play for an entirely different -purpose-) is, or how they should play this way or that is not the answer and is not productive.

That being said. I really like @Oleis suggestion, for the exact reason @lim stated.

(Sorry for phone typos.)

Angwe · May 2015

Jensen said:

Angwe said:
Remember that time I ran into Spines while enemied just to punch a guy? Good times.
You mean every single time you used the track skill?

Tru dat.

Aishia said:
I think 90% of the problem is just the fact that the majority of the time raiding is just 4am griefbashing all the guards. The times you remember it as fun are not the times where it's really representative of the actual outlook of most of raids undertaken. I really can't remember a raid in recent history where it wasn't something underway when I logged in early in the morning to find going on vs an empty org. Which is a problem that would only be exasperated by changing the current system to favor the raider more.

I've definitely had a lot of fun defending from raids. More often it was fun than t'was a teeth-grinding, frustrating mess. But, the bolded part rings true still; the solution here isn't to flip-flop guards between old and new stats or w/e. A new solution is definitely needed.

However, in classic fashion, I offer no insights as to what that may be (I don't even play right now, after all.) If I was asked, I'd say adding objectives within raids seems like the right direction.

Toz · May 2015

Rashar said:

@jensen, I like you, but for a guy that always wants to be administered a dose of fun conflict I -still- have yet to see you do anything -yourself- about it beyond talk. You sit in Spinesreach and you RP being an evil villain. Go out and be one? It's like Ishin rolling around talking shit all day working on legacy reputation. Do we not strike out of fear? Not hardly. The truth is, the words are empty because we know you're going to be idling at the Inner Gate or your shop in 15 minutes unless someone in the Pools holds your hand and drags you to something 'meaningful'.

When I'm convinced lifers will react with anything other than 'WAAAAAH' or a group 2x mine's size (then 'WAAAAAH'), I'll consider this a viable defense. I'm trying to be civil here but this stuff keeps coming up like we've not had this discussion a thousand times before. You can play this game to RP. But when you take one of THE biggest draws of the game, the one that generates THE MOST revenue for the game, and beat it with a nerf bat 'cause of muh feelz until nobody has an interest in pking because it's too much work? There's a problem.

Jensen · May 2015

I have zero desire to engage in pk world that exists currently. I also work about 60-80 hours a week now and would rather RP than spend the absurd hours to get vials, venoms, slices, tinctures, bandages, poultices, serums, armor, weapons, sigils, and enchantments up to spec, then remember fighting dynamics, class routes, and targeting priorities, for something that is currently hollow and bleak on the off chance that a small facet of RPK or a niche in pvp might occur. -AND IN SPITE OF THAT- I'm still attempting to do some order related PK with an RP backing in the minimal time I have left to play. The time you've played is such a small blip and it's almost entirely based in the lull most of us are referring to.

So attempt to raid if you want, or attempt to drum up rpk, neither really matter to me right now since I won't be active till June. But there are people who do remember the fun sides of war systems, raiding (both offense and defense), plus various other old pk elements.

Areka · May 2015

Snark aside, there's also those of us that remember the grief, and the headache, and the kids qqing rather than playing, and the utter lack of substance other than trolling and the one-way exchanges and value in the playerbase. This conversation in itself completely kills any desire to even try to find common ground because it becomes more and more clear that there's no room for a playing style or playerbase other than your own, for a lot of you. Jensen, I feel like we had a decent talk, but you are a rarity when it comes to a lot of this.

It feels like only the victims of the PK culture are the ones wanting to work towards some sort of mutually-engaging system that provides some enjoyment despite the loss, and if that's the case, what's the point? You guys can go PK each other, since we're just a stand in for your own back-patting.

Edit: I suppose to clarify: While many of you have fond memories, many of us have only negative ones, and it has nothing to do with 'you just don't like losing'. Falling back on that argument shoots your own case in the foot, as it cuts away room for a two-way engagement in the system.

Draiman · May 2015

Rashar said:
Agree 100% with what @serrice and @aishia said.

@jensen, I like you, but for a guy that always wants to be administered a dose of fun conflict I -still- have yet to see you do anything -yourself- about it beyond talk. You sit in Spinesreach and you RP being an evil villain. Go out and be one? It's like Ishin rolling around talking shit all day working on legacy reputation. Do we not strike out of fear? Not hardly. The truth is, the words are empty because we know you're going to be idling at the Inner Gate or your shop in 15 minutes unless someone in the Pools holds your hand and drags you to something 'meaningful'.

Nothing I have to say is related to guards or raiding but to the attitudes of non combatants (and even a few "combatants") in this game, sparked by this specific quote

I just want you all to know that I love you too.

But this shit right here drives me up a wall.

We have to idle. It's all we can do. If we raid, we're griefers, if we start an event, we're griefers, or the numbers, or the admin are biased, or blah blah blah.

You guys have such a poor attitude. And it spills over to your newbies. You don't even give them hope. I know, I've been in your webs, I've listened to you all talk to them. "welp they have 3030490230492039 people gg we're done here"

Everything EVERY dark aligned person does is instantly trolling or griefing. God forbid there be a reason for it or you even try to figure it out. Nope. They're darkie, must be trolling. Not trying to start conflict.

I don't even want to log on anymore (and slowly but surely getting to the point where I don't log on at all) because of this attitude you've all adopted. It makes me feel bad for enjoying the game when I do play on Draiman. I don't have the money to invest in to Dreth to put him on the same level so I can't play him like I play Draiman, and I'm not dropping the investment that is Draiman anyways. But all I ever see is whining about how it's unfun and memories of griefing and blah blah blah. I mean I can't be sympathetic for you, you guys pity yourselves enough. You guys are seriously playing Aetolia like there shouldn't be any conflict. Like it shouldn't be forced on you, when I've known since day 4 when I saw my RL buddy get beheaded in the most wondrous display of wtf assassination from Exodus from assaulting a newbie that shit can get real if you don't watch out, and it can get real fast.

The world felt real and dangerous and I wanted to be a part of it. I mean just watching or hearing about ganksquads, both light side and dark side, made the game feel so much more alive, filled with excitement and activity. But that world can't exist anymore because it's not fun for someone? Fine, delete this stupid RP world with no conflict, because it's not fun for a lot of us. FK Aetolia, you guys go play an RPI and the PKers will all go play CoD or something.

Teani · May 2015

People in this game are too afraid to play losers. Personally, I feel loss builds character, but only if it's given some meaning rather than a simple bashing. I think if people were less prone to baw about things like dying (seeing as it actually doesn't have a meaning anymore) there shouldn't be too many difficulties to create conflict. Even RPers should be able to participate.

UNLESS, of course, they've played up their ability to fight RPwise and then can't hold their own in an actual fight. Then there's bound to be some rage and tears, because OMG someone came and killed me, ruining my (fake) reputation.

I think the game would actually feel quite good if the people who can't fight RP's out some genuine fear, but also that the fighters attempt to RP towards them rather than just going in and bashing them down without as much as a sinister sneer of superiority. I wish that if someone who can't fight is faced with someone who could obviously kill them, there would be some meaningful RP happening between the two to give both a little something, with the fighter pausing long enough to RP with the victim before killing and moving on, WITHOUT said victim calling out to their friends to come there right away and kill them.

I know these are fantasies and dreams that are not likely to happen, because once someone goes into fighting mode, raiding a city, why stop to toss out an emote (Rashar-style), risking their own lives before moving on?

Xenia · May 2015

I'm with Toz as well, I've been playing since March of 2013 and to my memory, never once has there been a raid against Spinesreach, except for once when Angwe and Aarbrok came for confrontational RP and it turned into a fight. That wasn't even really a planed raid.

I've tried participating in raids with the sole purpose of hoping for some sort of retaliation on the city. So I dunno, I just sort of go off of how I'd react which is this: If my city is raided, I'm going to raid back.

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Should guards be toned down?

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