Should guards be toned down?

Jensen

Since the guard revamp, raiding has pretty much died entirely. The last one I can think of was the very unsuccessful ones against Enorian during the blanket enemy ordeal.

Aryanne

Newbie doesn't seem like quite the right section to have this poll in. Any way an admin could move it somewhere other than Newbie?

Jensen

Definitely did not mean to put it there. I always oops on my phone

Trager

Last I remember, when the topic was brought up, Oleis and some of the folks upstairs had very different ideas of what conflict should be between cities. I might be remembering wrong, but that was what I recall at least. Personally, I hated guards, and fought quite a few times for Duiran to simple remove theirs to no success. But on the flip side, it does open up the door for what some might call some 'griefy' plays made by enemies.

All in all, my opinion on guards were that they were relatively pointless. Just because a city doesn't have guards, in no way negates the rules of PK Law - meaning they can't just simply walk in and randomly slaughter everyone. But in the off chance that someone does, there are middling to decent fighters in every organized city that could fight off attacks, or snag that retribution against the offender.

Edit: Also, I see the positives and negatives from both sides. Forced between three extremes of answers isn't very enlightening.

Jensen

I still agree that you can't just pk people who don't wish to involve themselves, but currently what we have is ridiculous. Guards are default op and only get stronger as you kill them. You can hide from death now more than ever even without guards. I just want something between what we have now and what we used to have. Something where a group of 5-10 players could cut a hole but 1 heavily artifacted person couldn't solo.

Areka

Most of the raids I've experienced have been pretty lame. People camping out in houses or guild halls, the raiding on the master crystal which set the Ascendril back quite a good chunk of work, etc, may have been fun for our PKers, but was demoralizing elsewhere. It has been, more often than naught, a thing that gets people to log off rather than participate.

In this regard, while Guards certainly can and have been tweaked in the past, raiding culture's the thing that needs looking at from the playerbase, as that is the reason guards get tweaked in the first place.

Xenia

The raids that I've seen that involved camping in a single house or location was usually a tactic used to avoid the guards. I could be wrong about what was done prior to guards, as this would be before my time.

Aishia

Why would you even WANT to encourage raiding? It's pretty lame. But still possible, no one has really been TRYING it, not that it isn't possible. Guards get weaker the longer they have not been harassed.

Jensen

We had tried, even at their weakest they cut down a group of over 10 players, unsupported, with taking advantage of an unlocked player home. All of my positive raiding experience has been from Duiran either being raided or raiding another.

Oleis

Suggestion but not an official plan by any means:

What if we reduce the power of the guards, but they ramp up dramatically the longer enemies are in the city? This incentivizes short-term assassinations but continues to deny the longer-term camping griefiness.

Jensen

I would take that over what we have now

Neoma

I use to like raids way back when we could actually get a foot in a city, die a few times get enemied and bountied. Now it is boring, you end up waiting ages for something to happen, people all huddled up and getting nowhere fast, waiting for a portal or whatever. After 20 minutes to half an hour of that I am done! So part of me could also have answered I do not raid anymore.

Anyway my 2 cents.

Jensen

When we got raided in Duiran, the raiders usually made some headway until allies turned up, and then it would turn the tide, and allow security to plug the hole. Then we got to send out bounty hunters and assassins. I had a blast.

Aarbrok

The organizations have every right to utilise as many or as little guards as they desire. The fact that some are maxed out to the amount of guards where others keep them scant is due to player desire or need for safety...which is kind of amusing.

I think that yeah they are overpowered, but I don't think it is an issue with their overpowered-ness as much as it is the amount of guards these cities are willing to and/or do pay for. I think perhaps the amount of guards should be lessened over nerfing the guards down.

Toz

Currently we have:
Ylem - lessers/majors. Lose, no big deal. Go home nothing lost. Not even xp.
Fracture - nobody goes there to fight. Just to bash with Shade.
Vortex - some stuff rarely and a good idea, but you lose a little xp if you die and that is about it.
Sect - 1v1, lose xp if you lose. Again, no biggie.

Two things are missing from the comprehensive list of our current pk routes: a risk on a personal level, and a reason to care on an org level. Losses meaning something encourages people to get better. Frustration is not ALWAYS a bad thing. And since we have lost every meaningful way of impacting other cities, who cares? Sides mean nothing in a world where everything is padded. Why NOT hang our with vamps as a Templar? Not like they actually do anything other than exist/maybe drink blood occasionally. Why should anyone care about the Carnifex? We can't do any damage that won't resolve in 30 when NPCs respond. That lackluster feeling people have been feeling is, in my opinion, a direct resultbof there not being a real, meaty mechanical reason to give a fuck. And that isn't on admin, it is on players who complained about stuff being too hard until it got needed or deleted.

Aarbrok

I call that effect the safety scissors effect @Toz - The playerbase has complained the risk in Aetolia down to the level of the worst sensation to gain is not being picked for a team in kickball. Oh piffle and woe to that.

Unfortunately one of the things I miss most from achaea is the raid system that was made there. Give us something equivalent to totems, nerf our guards down and give us mechanics if you want to make something worthwhile, but tossing another bandage on a pile of band-aids is not going to resolve the hot mess that is the conflict system of Aetolia.

We have no war, we have nothing viable in that regard....its essentially Hello Kitty's Island Adventure around here.

Jensen

Guards still need a rework. I've given Bloodloch like 5-10 wormholes into Enorian at undefended locations. No guards, no sigils. And even they won't raid because it's absurdly hard. It's not even the density because at their weakest their response radius is smallest and they still stomp raiders into the ground.

Serrice

Bloodloch and Spines each individually have the same amount of people as Eno + Duiran put together like 90% of the time. While I'm all for balancing things based on objective metrics usually, honestly, this and most other attempts to stir up 'conflict' just seem like attempts to give shadow to a nice little ego boost by making it easier for them to stomp orgs that already have low populations.

Xenia

if guards are going to be reworked, I would say rework it so that they cost a lot more to keep so many out.

Toz

Serrice said:

Bloodloch and Spines each individually have the same amount of people as Eno + Duiran put together like 90% of the time. While I'm all for balancing things based on objective metrics usually, honestly, this and most other attempts to stir up 'conflict' just seem like attempts to give shadow to a nice little ego boost by making it easier for them to stomp orgs that already have low populations.

I play both sides. I also prefer raid defense to raiding - but there still needs to be a reason to care.

Jensen

Serrice said:

Bloodloch and Spines each individually have the same amount of people as Eno + Duiran put together like 90% of the time. While I'm all for balancing things based on objective metrics usually, honestly, this and most other attempts to stir up 'conflict' just seem like attempts to give shadow to a nice little ego boost by making it easier for them to stomp orgs that already have low populations.

Duiran alone used to stomp Spinesreach into the ground. @seir @angwe and myself have launched successful raids with just the three of us. Then there was the time @benedicto and a few others cleared spines completely of guards a few times in a weekend. It goes both ways.

Areka

We're already more towards the negatives than the positives with our guard upkeep, which is what it is DUE to the raiding. Guards in general and their strength is due to how raids have been handled in the past.

Changing guards won't magically change the apathy issues, nor fix the conflict issues, especially if people remain utterly incapable of self-moderation.

There are other avenues you guys can take if you want conflict in the meanwhile.

My hackles are a bit up with this because it's going to be me dealing with my orgs once ya'll start up again and it is NOT fun. It is NOT a good time.

Guards are NOT the problem - raid culture and lack of objectives are the issue.

Aarbrok

Here is an example what ACHAEA did for Raid system... I honestly think something like this would help us.

PLEASE READ

ANNOUNCE NEWS #3457
Date: 6/21/2011 at 2:38
From: Tecton, the Terraformer
To : Everyone
Subj: War and City Destruction

We're pleased to announce the unveiling of our eagerly awaited war
system: City Destruction!

The aim of this system is to allow cities to attack one another in an
organised and objective-based manner, while still keeping things fair
for all parties. The changes allow a city to leave a lasting mark on its
foes, and allow the defenders a chance to defend their homeland without
the sometimes harsh penalties that come along with it.

As a preface, I'd just like to say that due to the somewhat large-scale
conflict required to extensively test this, there may be some aspects of
this system that require adjustment or reworking, which can only come
with live testing. We'll be monitoring this system very closely and
making necessary tweaks and changes as required.

Experience changes
------------------
- No PK-related experience loss for citizen defenders or gain for
raiders inside cities.
- Experience loss for raiders and gain for citizen defenders is still in
effect.
- "No experience loss" does not extend to infamous adventurers or
contract kills.
- Experience loss for sitting as a soul on zero mana is still in effect.

City Soldier changes
--------------------
- CITY SOLDIERS are now only viewable by members of that city's War
ministry.

Sanctioned Raids
----------------
Members of a city's ruling council or the War minister may SANCTION a
RAID while inside the walls of an opposing city. This requires the
invaders to maintain a strong presence inside enemy territory, with at
least five city soldiers assisting in the war effort. During a
sanctioned raid, invaders may unleash havoc on their enemies, crushing
their opposition while destroying treasured landmarks (see "City
Destruction" below).

A sanctioned raid ends, simply, when there are less than five attacking
city soldiers left in the city. Whether this is due to a crushing
defeat, strategic retreat, or triumphal departure is up to you!
Attacking soldiers will find it behoves them to exit a city once their
victory is complete, rather than standing around endlessly gloating (see
"City Defences" below).

Citizens may rapidly check the status of any sanctioned raids in their
city with CITY STATUS.

City Destruction
----------------
Your city has at its disposal the ability to create a powerful elemental
weapon with which enemy cities can be laid to waste. The particulars of
this weapon's creation are known by one denizen in each city:

- Ashtan: Oquaythe
- Cyrene: Alcine, the ice mage
- Eleusis: Cwincan the Gaian Knight
- Hashan: Ildronabad, an ancient nocturni
- Mhaldor: Jirken
- Shallam: Enran, of the Royal Guard

The preparation of the weapon is an involved process, requiring the
careful monitoring and care by the citizenry over the course of two to
three Achaean months to ensure that the flame-borne creatures reach
their full destructive potential.

Once your weapons reach maximum strength, and preparations are complete,
it is time to strike! During a sanctioned raid, soldiers may SUMMON
SPARK to conjure forth a conflagrant weapon of destruction to destroy
the surrounding cityscape. This action requires the undivided attention
of three soldiers to complete.

When summoning is complete, havoc is rained down upon the environs,
destroying rooms and lining the streets with rubble. A destroyed room
has very limited functionality: shops are rendered useless, as are
banks, post offices, and barracks.

Should your assault force succeed in its mission, each soldier in the
room will be rewarded with an experience bonus, and the city's coffers
will be filled with proceeds from the sacking.

Repairs
-------
The tides of war ebb and flow, and no player-run city is free from
repercussions. Should you find your city's rooms destroyed by the forces
of your enemies, you have two options:

Manual repair: Citizens may take the opportunity to rapidly repair
damaged cityscapes by devoting their attention to reconstructing their
once-proud rooms. You may recruit up to three fellow citizens(*) to aid
in this endeavour and significantly reduce the time required. Having
more than 4 total repairers in one location will not have any additional
benefit.

* Citizens are required to be members of the Development ministry (HELP
DEVELOPMENT)

Automatic repair: During a drawn-out war, there may be little time or
manpower to devote to such a manual task. Cities may enlist the aide of
a denizen crew to take care of the repairs. This option is neither
cheap, nor fast, but requires little intervention by the populace and is
not subject to interruption. Development Ministers may enable this in
the Council Chambers with CITY SET AUTOREPAIR ON|OFF.

City Defences
-------------
Alongside the discovered knowledge of these elemental weapons, it was
revealed that each city's font holds a certain amount of residual power
from the time of its Divine creation. Members of the Security ministry
(HELP SECURITY) may tap into this power to provide an additional measure
of defence against unwanted intruders.

Accessing this power requires your font to be well stocked with power
from the lesser eidolons that reside across Sapience. When sufficiently
powered, members of the Security ministry may EMPOWER their FONT, which
will diminish its reserves in order to amplify its latent power. For
approximately one Achaean day, the font will periodically pulse and
place a stacking effect upon all enemies inside the city, which appears
like an affliction when diagnosed. Each stack of this effect increases
incoming damage from all sources by a small amount. Thus, the longer an
enemy lingers in this hostile environment, the greater the potency of
the effect. The effect rapidly diminishes when not in the same area as
an empowered font.

To allow complete management of the city's font, Security and War
ministers and aides may check on its status at any time with CITY FONT
STATUS.

Jensen

We currently have 18 guards in Spines for RP and academy purposes only. I haven't had to post a bounty in 2015 to date. I think the last one we put up was in October. Nobody raids, it's boring and defeats the point of having MoS which I enjoy playing.

If people don't like raids they aren't even required to be involved, only active defenders or people who have pk cause can get targeted.

Serrice

Like I said, you have to look at the environment in which the element exists at the /present/, not just base your decisions on hypotheticals or something that used to happen. Just because you /used/ to do all of that doesn't mean that it applies to the current situation of things as they stand, especially when the matter at hand isn't so cut and dry as to make it a no-brainer change.

It's like making a buff or nerf to a class without taking into consideration the present meta - power level and viability is heavily dependent on the other classes in the game.

Areka

Except for when people drop singularites and holos on open roads, or hole out in peoples' houses which means that those financial investments can't be safely used, or when Scios repeatedly drained Ascendril's master crystal, etc.

I get that you want conflict but just lol raids are only satisfying for the aggressors and the rare defender. That's nice that Spines has the luxury of not needing as many guards, you're right, we don't raid you guys. However, we do not have that luxury due to the excessive grief raiding parties end up devolving to - it stops being a conflict encounter and becomes "OK, it's been two hours, can I do something else without being harassed or bitched at for not doing my duty to my city/overlooking present threats/etc"

Jensen

The power balance back then when @benedicto raided spines was not in favor of Enorian, and while it did favor Duiran - it was still only 3 of us-. I have no idea what you guys field for combatants these days, but the incessant down putting makes you guys lose before you start.

Aarbrok

I feel like this discussion has devolved into we dont want and we do want but by no means is it coming to a resolution on what is best for the game, I have tried to levy options but it seems they are falling on the same ears which I hear in clans that essentially turn into we want this because its fun for us, but then the opposing side saying we dont want this because it is not fun for us.

I honestly will stand by that the raids have no mechanics behind them to make them engaging for both sides, so all this thread is going to continue to do is go back and forth without actually accomplishing anything for the admins/coders to work with.

Perhaps we can try and expand our minds beyond the this sucks for us attitude and turn it into the this would be great for everyone attitude.

Jensen

I just have a hard time understanding the idea that being on the defensive side can't be fun. I've done it for the bulk majority of my play time which was 100% for duiran and Enorian prior to guard revamp. Even if it was just me.

It gives roles to the entire MoS and aides (which don't have to even be combatants ). Managing sigils, doing sweeps, setting up bounties, managing a rewards structure, moving guards around during the raid, and then defending if you choose to.

There are a ton of aggressor stuff to do to, but I can understand not wanting to participate.

Areka

Yes, it's totally the downputting that's the problem, and not the years of experience of folk being utterly incapable of self-moderation. It's totally me going "this isn't fun for us" and not 8 of you camping out in some dormant scrub's house that we can do nothing about since they're dormant. It of course has nothing to do with the active experience and history of people dragging noncoms in or taking things to extremes that encourage people to QQ rather than play, or people to get harassed (both internally and externally, from fellow citizens wanting to know why you're letting enemies chill out there to enemies shouting and being obnoxious over it) for not wanting to continue to hammer at it. How silly of me.

Guards aren't the problem. Raid culture and lack of objectives is the problem. Again. And I'll keep repeating that until I am blue in the face.

It would be nice if there were checkpoints and objectives to raiding beyond camping out and harassing people. Attack the wharves in Enorian for some small shipments of materials, attack the prison in Spinesreach and free the prisoners for X effect, what-have-you. Dump a bunch of buckets in BL to confuse people, idk.

The discussion needs to move past what it is currently and to actually, genuinely consider the engagement on both sides of the equation, not just the aggressor or the PK-minded defender, since it isn't separate PK-minded space that raids impact.

Serrice

I like listening to sea shanties. I don't like hanging out with large groups of people for too long. I like ESO. I like being swept away and RP with a really good writer for hours at a time and write nice long blocks of text and develop and build a uniquely Aetolian character.

I don't understand how people that can't be fun - no, I actually do understand that other people are different and enjoy other things and play this game for different reasons.

It's fun to you, and I'm sure it's fun for some other people out there like maybe Trager, just like how I'm sure there's people that can't stand exchanging paragraph long blocks of text for 8 hours and think it's silly and stupid.

But I'm not going suggest a mechanic that says you have to do that for hours at a time, nor am I going to suggest that if you don't do it, and if you don't do it well enough, you're going to take mechanical penalties. How absurd would that be?