Your war system ideas

RazmaelRazmael adminMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,288 admin
edited January 2015 in Aetolia Development
Hey folks,

We're currently sitting down to design the new war system, and want to see what you, the players, would like to see come from it. So feel free to post your thoughts here. We can't promise to include everything (or anything!) suggested here, but we will be reading through all posts.

Disclaimer: This does not mean the war system is anywhere near close to being released. We are only in initial idea planning stage, and we are not committing to any sort of release schedule just yet.
MoireanHavenArbreAngweXenia
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Comments

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For me it's something that shunts the majors conflict times into specific points of instead of encouraging people to stay up all night to win on a forced march. Maybe something that takes away a bit from "War going on, if I'm in the Militia I can't ever leave the city without protection." thing too. Not that there isn't a need for much more detail and specific ideas, but those are two things that leap to mind.
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    RazmaelObynAreka
  • AldricAldric ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Echoing off of what Aishia said, a "down time" option of sorts would be pretty important IMO. Before when you'd be put on the active roster, but wanted to RP for a little bit, or go bashing, it wasn't entirely an option unless you'd seclude yourself in a city/haven.

    I think treating active roster (if it'd be utilized again) somewhat like the ylem aura that fades relatively quickly would be pretty nice, even if the aura would last for an hour. The ability to take a break from war is a pretty big deal since this is, after all, a game.
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  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like a lot of your ideas riluo but I would also advise that admin aim to make the system simple and intuitive as well. Its really easy to get complex with this sort of thing. Avalon revamped their war system a few years ago and made it far more complex and it alienated a ton of players from the system. End of the day war system should be about engaging people, creati g conflict, prompting rp abd giving people a way to help out their orgs and compete with others. Super intense tactical stuff raises the barrier for entry too high for the system to draw in everyone 
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
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  • SetneSetne The Grand Tyrant Member Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As been stated by Moi and Riluo, ways for non-pk stuff to help out. Like maybe doing a quest to convince maybe a bandit group to sabotage an enemy something or even a quest to directly sabotage it yourself. While I try to dabble in some pk when I can, in the end, it's not my main draw. Though really, I want spying and stuff.
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  • ZsadistZsadist ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    I like the ideas as I agree it would add alot of conflict and get both PKers and non-PKers to join in for such a large scale conflict and actually be fun. However, and this may just be me, but wouldn't that still leave the crafters (non-PKers) open to PK? I mean, if I know Aryanne or Lucie is crafting arrows for the ballista to attack a towne that is controlled by BL, I'm going to target them and kill them in order for them to be unable to supply the arrows for Enorian.

    While I like the idea of getting non-PKers involved in a primarily PK conflict, I can't help but feel they would likely still be targetted by association laws and helping the PK scene.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    That seems to be kinda extreme and I expect pk laws would protect them if stuff like this was added in. We don't go around killing people who do refills for pkers.

    Also I wouldn't classify it as primarily pk. Its clear there is interest for a variety of ways to participate... And the overall planning and troop work has never been pk - it made you open to pk and pk was used to help or hinder but a system like this is about more than just pk. Many non fighters really enjoyed troop work. If you're thinking about this as just a pk activity I think you're selling its potential short.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
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    RazmaelRiluoIshin
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On a side note this thread has me really excited. I love war systems and as a cityleader I really feel the need for one - war systems help provide long term goals for orgs which makes it easier for us to lead without getting burnt out from trying to provide things for the city to build up to and aim for.

    I guess a system would ideally keep this element in mind. Ensure participation is something people want to do over time (compared to ylem where it stopped having a point or need), the mechanics allow for both cities and individuals to be heroes from good campaigns and tactics, and the scope is flexible enough that a city can have this as long term, intermediate and urgent goals. Eg long term goal to "defeat" another city. Intermediate goals are take village x within a year, take village y and z within a decade. Urgent goals are actively scouting, defending or attacking if war activity happens.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
    IshinAldricElene
  • ZsadistZsadist ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Moirean said:

    That seems to be kinda extreme and I expect pk laws would protect them if stuff like this was added in. We don't go around killing people who do refills for pkers.

    I don't exactly see how that would be extreme. I mean, in a sense, they are actively participating in what would be typically and likely be a PK environment. Also, it wouldn't really be violating the PK Laws because I would have RP reason to attack the Enorian suppliers, just like they'd have reason to attack BL suppliers. Also, I'd like to point out that if I was fighting somebody and I saw someone run in, give my enemy a whole bunch of vial cures, and then run out, I'm going to hunt them down too for assisting in a situation that I feel they didn't needed to get involved in. This may be a very extremist attitude, but I'm a variable outlier in the community that we have.

    Also, I'd like to point out that I may very well be selling the war system short, considering I wasn't around when the war system was out before. I'm just asking questions that I would end up asking over Raiders or some other clan anyway. Might as well get my inquiries out of the way now.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    I don't know if like, territory control is the BEST mechanic, but I think the whole "every little individual room" thing is a bit grindy. If there were like FORTS or points of conflict in each area that were fought over for general control (maybe not even in every area) That might be interesting. Tho I guess we probably want an additional combat mechanic to be less "Single room" focused than lessers are. But ya stuff like fighting for control of villages and specific FEATURES and landmarks might be more interesting than trying to grind through the whole game map. A war that was like "The war to control pash" instead of "the war for everything between here and Spinesreach." might be more interesting.
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  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In some general sense there probably needs to be a limit on complete domination too. Some org owning every last scrap of everything in the game is a bit landslidey and too many bonuses to winning overwhelmingly buries the losing side faster. But an idea is something like, control of specific areas might give bonuses, access to special commodities or resources, maybe unique access to quests or something like that. An idea could be the farther from your city an area is and the more areas your city controls some sort of "upkeep" on maintaining them and keeping them under your control either saps a resource or makes them easier to capture over time.
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    IshinValingar
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well ya along that lines certain areas and peoples might be more inclined to specific cities ways and be easier to hold too. Some areas might provide like extra INSURGENT troops or something if they're in a negative mood and are attacked, etc.
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  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cause the idea of a bunch of pissed off deer mounted dryads showing up to stage a revolution is p funny.
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  • MaelMael ✭✭ Member Posts: 47 ✭✭
    Limited resources, so that it's difficult / next to impossible to control everything, and make you have to choose behind going on the offensive, or the defensive, risk taking another territory by putting other ones at risk.

    Rewards for the capture -only- going to the organization that captures/controls the node rather then the entire tether. So there may be instances where one organization may choose not to assist the other because they can't afford to put their territories at risk, or because they want the territory themselves. Could lead to some interesting cold war scenarios.

    for the War system, I don't feel that PK should be the primary focus, it should be a byproduct of the war system, however I feel that this shouldn't be the best alternative in the majority of circumstances.

    Smart AI so as you can set regiments to take territory, who will hold the territory until ordered elsewhere, both for offense/defense.
    IshinHavenArekaAngwe
  • MaelMael ✭✭ Member Posts: 47 ✭✭
    If you can have guys on the defensive, you can introduce mini-raiding which would yield a few options to the defenders. For example, lets say organization A controlled Mournhold, and organization B desided that they would attack it as players, as there wasn't much defense there. When they attack/are spotted, the defenders alert the organization, which can yield a couple of responses, like getting a bunch of people to assist/raid defense, sending more troops to defend, or having some troops of reserve to automatically go defend if your areas are attacked. Troops would have a delay to get to where they need to.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do personally want some aspect of the rts preserved. I liked that there was a complete separate sort of conflict. Pk played a part but as a general I mostly directed people where and who to fight and focused on tactical capture routes abd troop square offs. A lot of the suggestions seem to be dropping that and focus on more group fights.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
    IshinAngwe
  • RinaRina Member Posts: 7
    Maybe a mix of both? Have a contested area between two at-war orgs "open" twice or thrice a day, for short periods, like an hour or so, where the focus is on troop order (npc movement) instead of PK. When one side finally does take the area, through repeated progress made over multiple sessions, it opens up an adjacent area for contestation and so on and so forth? The time limit might be tweaked to make it harder for one side to win an area in a single session. Cooldowns for declaring areas to be contested could impose downtime in between victories/defeats.

    Or if you want to let wars drag out longer, you could make the things open much more infrequently so that you could have orgs constantly at war but not constantly burning out each other with PK and the sort? The lengthy time period for a full campaign will also allow pendulum swings of activity back and forth to result in pendulum swings of territory gain back and forth. Then you could build on this skeleton of a war system by making quests that non-combatants (like me) can do while the actual troop movment is on cooldown to give temporary bonuses or one-use effects (that expire after a while, so we have something to do all the time) that militia members can use during the actual fight etc.

    That way the city leaders get to use contesting areas as a kind of big chess game on the game world, and then on-the-ground people able to do their troop movement/PK when the thing happens.
    MoireanArekaAngwe
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    The second part of your post is basically what I said in my first post.

    I'm mostly focusing on concepts and elements I like about war systems. I suspect admin will draw our ideas together into something so I figure it's more helpful to share what makes stuff fun instead of trying to dream up a system for them.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
    Ishin
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One other thing I liked about the war system, was like, you went in with troops, and it was like PROTECTTROOPSPROTECTTROOPSPROTECTTROOPS until they forted up, if enemies were around. It was really intense because full companies of troops were flippin' expensive, man -and- they took a few days to actually merge into a full company. So like...losing a company of troops was a big deal, you know?

    Stuff like that, for me, was always one of the biggest things that motivated me to always be 100% on top of my PK game. I look at stuff now and I'm kinda like '...eh.' Why bother? All I'm going to do is we're gonna get our 15 core people together, Duiranorian is going to get their 4 core people together, and they'll try, we'll wreck, and then we'll shake our heads and give them silent kudos for bothering to try(not always how it happens, but seems to be the majority of the time to me).

    I remember @Haven once called me 'a terror on the battlefield'. Lol, not anymore. Don't care enough to be. Not trying to be negative nancy about foci, it's just that for me as an individual it's not motivating enough to want to win like I used to.
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  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be fair, their four know how to navigate Fengard, so there's that...
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
    Arbre
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moirean said:

    To be fair, their four know how to navigate Fengard, so there's that...

    Map awareness is a dying concept :(
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    Moirean
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ishin said:

    Moirean said:

    To be fair, their four know how to navigate Fengard, so there's that...

    Map awareness is a dying concept :(
    Which brings us back to the topic - troop movements rewarded explorer-types, as awareness of terrain, geography and routes was a valued thing. As someone who spends a lot of time learning the lay of the land, I was able to do stuff like a secret secondary capture chain through Duiran's territory (I sent them thank you flowers) to surprise BL in the Mhojave - using what you know in creative ways like that is really FUN and creates memories/stories you retain for a long time.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
    IshinAngwe
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ishin said:

    Moirean said:

    To be fair, their four know how to navigate Fengard, so there's that...

    Map awareness is a dying concept :(
    I remember I was so proud that I could navigate areas in Lusternia by memory, before there was a fancy map that showed up on screen and everything was from experience and reading the maps online that Caffrey (bless his cartographic soul) made.
     
    RiluoIshin
  • IrruelIrruel ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 670 ✭✭✭✭
    There are all different kinds of fights in muds. 1 vs 1, small team vs small team, large v large, attackers vs entrenched defenders. Chaotic brawls where large teams end up spread out across the area (these are generally pretty funny). The list could go on and on.

    Try to include as many types into the war system as possible. How can you design situations that will require/encourage different types of fighting?
    • Introducing chaos to the environment will introduce chaos to the skirmish. This might be a moving objective, aggressive mobs, unstable environments making player coordination more difficult, etc.
    • Small teams can be encouraged when there are multiple goals to be achieved simultaneously.
    • Players with less pk ability can still participate in the pvp environment if it is not normal pvp. If two people try to fight in the arbothia mansion, for example, and one is a chronic basher while the other is top tier pvper - who will win? I remember using Zsarachnor to help me kill someone I was never able to kill in a duel. Also that room in the Dun fortress that causes huge amounts of damage - I once noose-trapped it, ran into the room and incinerated a few seconds after the trap was sprung.
    Ishin
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ah @Moirean you can pull my candelabra any day.
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    SetneTragerIshinArbre
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really like the strategic point capture in the company of heroes series. You could divy up areas by size type and give each a set of point capture rooms. IE a small territory might have 1 point that is randomly placed when war is declared, but a large territory might have 4-5 that are randomly placed when a war is declared. You would then need to scout the region for the strategic points and then capture them to take the territory.
    image
    Ishin
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