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Right now I own Zealot content, there's no other class in aetolia like Zealot and I chose to own it because I enjoy the content. If its content is going to be duplicated I should be able to choose what tether I want that type of content to be placed. If Aetolia were to bake more pies then that's new content to sell. I.e. Mining, farming, fishing, gaming, etc. But when Aetolia cuts current slices of pie in half, the least you can do is provide players with the ONE TIME option of what tether they'd like that content to exist. I understand that currently, you have to switch tethers anyways to have access to certain content, but if that content were already available and accessible under your current tether would that player have even gone through the process of jumping tethers? Personally, I don't care for the introduction of mirror classes, but if mirror classes are to be introduced, it should not be at the players expense.
If slices are being cut in half let me pick which side of the slice I'd like to keep.
As it stands, you do have a discount for switching to the mirror class: forget the mirrored class and trade-in its artifacts. 50%/66% (rarely 75% or 100% certain artifacts) off has been "fair" enough until now. Free seems unprecedented and unfair to the act of creation taken by the Pools. However, I'd love it if they bumped down the lesson loss for mirrored classes to 33% or 25% for a week or two after the mirror class comes out. Or just all classes forever. 50% loss is pretty steep, really.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
Switching from a class to its mirror would be a very different dynamic. You're not trading something you're not going to use to buy something new, you're trading it in to buy what you already have. It's going to generate a lot of Feels Bad. I think the current system is going to have to be adjusted to account for that as mirror classes are released.
The point of mirror classes, I would think, is partially to ensure that you don't feel you need to sidehop to get access to that cool class you want to play but don't wanna give up your RP for.
Wanting to change your RP is a completely different issue, as Tiur said.
PS. Spoilers? Please? Or maybe a new ETA? Newbie channel leak said End of Month, but we're on 1/29/21 and don't expect you to hold to that with so much in the air.
Let's look at something like League of Legends for an example.
Champ 1 has:
- Damage in a line attack
- Crowd control that roots
- Some form of escape skill
- Ultimate that does a ton of damage
New champion is released. New ability FX, new model, new animations, new lore, new promotion for it, new skins, all of it.
Champ 2 has:
- Damage in a line attack
- Crowd control that roots
- Some form of escape skill
- Ultimate that does a ton of damage
Does that make them less of a new champion?
You buy the new champion because you love their theme, aesthetic, and lore - even if the skeleton is the same. The same principle applies to mirror classes.
You're not going to be trading in Archivist to play Archivist-But-With-White-Robes-Instead, you're trading in Archivist to play Botanist, or Jester, or Treant, or something else different.
Note: Those are not hints, they are entirely made up.
The only difference in sidehopping from Ascendril -> Archivist or Ascendril -> mirror Ascendril is that you'll already have a familiarity with the core strategy and offerings of the class if you choose mirror Ascendril instead; everything else is different. The class is different, the aesthetic is different, the roleplay is different, the lore is different, all of it.
From a combat perspective, there's a competitive advantage and disadvantage to having and not having classes. Each tether has their unique strengths in combat. As a player, I'm interested in figuring out the unique styles of different types of combat. As a player I've had to sacrifice access to different styles of combat by trying new styles of combat (in a different tether). If you take away that sacrifice then I should be allowed to select what tether I want my investments to be shifted to. I didn't play Zealot because of the Illuminai/Enorian RP. I played Zealot because I could set someone ablaze and prevent them from curing it by beating their torso to a pulp. That combat mechanic interests me and created the desire for me to spend money on mastering that system of combat.
When we think about mirror classes we shouldn't only think of it as an RP tool, but also think of it as duplicating systems of combat. There is no good reason to make me pay twice for the same exact system of combat. I'm not paying for the lore of a class, I'm paying for the system of combat. I should not be punished as a player who has invest in multiple systems of combat. The rules today I can't use every system of combat at once, but when the rules allow me to use every system of combat at once, I should not have to pay twice for something I previously owned.
Mirror classes is greater than RP, it's also about investing in combat systems.
Think about it, are most artifacts sold for RP or combat?
That was always the case, and after mirror classes, that'll still be the case.
If anything, there'd be fewer reasons to sidehop except for RP since every class will be available to both sides of the game.
If you've made the conscious decision to jump ship to the other side before mirror classes, you did it knowing you'd be taking losses. It's not a decision made lightly, and more than a few people have gone back and forth between tethers several times.
Yes, the mirror class is going to be mechanically identical to the original. Does it suck that your old class artifacts won't work with the mirrored class on your new tether? Of course it does. But you swapped sides knowing there'd be a penalty.
People love to talk about Aetolia being an RP game, but RP also has consequences, and a lot of times those consequences impact your investment. But you're also making decisions based on your investment too. Sunk a lot of gold and credits into your character, but suddenly don't like all the people around you? Or maybe RP circumstances have led things to a point where a sidehop might make sense.
If being where you are is such a pain, you're either going to sidehop anyway and eat the cost or roll an alt. If the investment loss is too much for you to handle, then maybe you'll reconsider your options or just suck it up and try to deal with the situation you've got.
Let's not equate customer purchases with roleplay consequences when it comes to the blowback for switching sides. That's not the same, and you know it. Your character losing their prestige, support network, friends, and making new enemies is NOT equivalent to a paying customer losing 50-60% of things they paid for OOC. Like call me silly but I don't think that someone should have to eat $1000+ because their character's RP changed, nor should they feel forced to stagnate their RP just because they have a ton of money sunk into classes.
Your justifications are bad. These are bad arguments to justify a model that is anti-consumer and, frankly, could be tweaked in a number of creative ways that enabled people not feeling that lose as severely while creating new avenues for profit. There's so many new forms of revenue that could be made to combat this that could easily overall become more profitable, even if the per-person cost goes slightly down. Has there always been a cost? Sure. But there didn't used to be multiclassing, there didn't used to be a cure for vampirism, and there used to be separate curing systems for Undead and Living Players. "It's always been bad" isn't an excuse. Like, yeah, it's always been "bad", but the actual, real-dollar cost has definitely gone up over time, and people are going to continue to feel it pinch more and more and more until RP has ground entirely to a halt when it comes to "Hey if you wanna be a good guy, Join Enorian" or "If you're sick of being controlled by dumb stuff, Join Bloodloch" routes. The more expensive sidehopping gets, the more rare it'll become.
And combat items are much more expensive than farming tools. While your opinion is valid in a certain category, you shouldn't be trying to refute a point that is outside of your interests.
Asking people to just magically pretend mirror classes aren't the same class isn't gonna work and it's just going to highlight these losses more for folk.
EDIT: this is ignoring styles, which I haven't spent...a TON on, but have definitely spent some credits on, one way or another. Not sure how much though.
10/10 make class specific artifacts transfer over to their mirror, to do anything else feels vaguely money-grabby.
Luminary is a priest class fueled by faith magic and wields a mace/shield. They are accompanied by a guardian angel.
MirrorLuminary is a priest class fueled by rage magic and wields a mace/shield. They are accompanied by an enslaved devil.
But admin have said repeatedly that's not necessarily the direction they're going. They're expected to be more like:
Luminary is a priest class fueled by faith magic and wields a mace/shield. They are accompanied by a guardian angel.
MirrorLuminary is a gunslinger class with a series of gadgets and wields a castergun. (Turret that uses angel mechanics. Deployable gravity wells/disks that use Rites mechanics. Castergun works like mace/shield mechanics.)
Either way, I believe they are a good change for the game. Changing the model away from "tether = class mechanics" opens up more options to every player and evens out the playing field. If the admin are careful and do not copy existing themes of established guilds/classes then I'd argue that, yes, players are receiving new content and would justify the cloning of artifacts. A tether switch token for artifacts would be a fair implementation 1000%. Even better if current players get a free set of tether tokens when their mirror class is released. Anything less than that is a punishment to the players that have stuck around and invested in the game before the new changes. Which I believe is the heart of @Jhin's concerns. If the admin don't have plans to grandfather current players smoothly into mirror classes, then they should get right on that before they drop any mirror classes.
That said... With the implementation of milestones and the upcoming implementation of mirror classes, it makes more sense for admin and players to take an 'account approach' to the game and encourage creating alts rather than side hopping and investing in just one character. I think one of the things the game should probably take a look at next is newbiedom and leveling as a whole but that's an entirely different can of worms.
How extensive are the changes going to be? Are all mirror classes going to be using the same equipment as their counterpart?
At the very best, you guys are only convincing me that a one time cheaperthing should happen. New shiny RP opens on the other tether, I could see making it easier to move over to it. But long term, I don't really see why a class with similar code, but different RP, is a division of content and requires a discount to shift to. It's like claiming that adding another race that doesn't have new raceskills cheapens all the other races. Which I guess is maybe what you're saying? I just don't agree.
E: I forgot to address timing. One is nearly done, the other needs a bit. We had a loooong talk and figured it's not fair to make one tether wait extra. So we're a few weeks behind. Once Mining is clear I'll have Raz back and it should be smoother scheduling, we've suffered for having him sidelined for so long. Also I hurt myself and it's limiting my computer time.
Could you clear up some confusion, at least. 'Someone powerful' said over newbie that we could expect to see them by the end of the month, and now we're being told you're weeks behind, because one is nearly done, and the other needs some time. This is counter to what's been alluded to elsewhere by volunteers also, implying more than one is almost ready. Your rejection on the Erosion report also heavily implied that Carnifex is the first mirror for Spirit to get, and Shadow is in the dark on what theirs is going to be. (haha geddit cause shadow)
Edit: Claims editing is for cowards. Edits his post anyways.
Aetolia's track record for sticking to a schedule is pretty terrible. That's not a judgement thing, either. I don't think any less of any of you because of it, I honestly believe Voldemort cursed us like he did the Defense Against the Dark Arts position. I'm just being honest so I can get to the next suggestion.
At this point, I don't think it would be a bad idea to give us some sort of break down of what's going on - coding challenges, writing challenges, lore challenges, etc. Spoilers be damned! Just give us a weekly update of progress, highlighting ups and downs, and keep us informed. It's easier to manage frustration with the delays, personally, like this, rather than having radio silence except for a few weird not spoilers, and then a big break of bad news.
I really thought we could do one by the 31st and another after that really quick, but it was pointed out to me that any mistakes or problems had really bad optics. We took a long talk, because we covered like... is missing a deadline worse than looking to favor one tether over another? Players are pretty understanding, but how many days does the understanding last? And we came to: They need to be released within the same week. The best understanding we could get would be the events: we don't want them to overlap, and that's something we can't change, so that's the best plan.
We got some stuff pre-built for the events, unfortunately we did it in opposite order, so I still need to push things to builders for the nearly finished mirror. The class itself is getting there, I've put in all the bifurcations and a message splitter, so it's fiddly things like affliction masking left to do. Hunting down everywhere the affliction shows and making sure that the new one shows instead for the new class, then sitting down and thinking through to make sure I didn't miss any instances where it should overlap or not overlap.
I also spent most of this week sleep deprived because my hand hurts so bad. I haven't gotten an ortho visit yet, because this is america and it takes a few weeks, so fun. Most likely I have carpal tunnel, or something is exacerbating a pinched nerve that I've always had. So I've been one handed coding, which takes some adaptation.Trial and error will teach me the correct amount of rest/work I can do so I can get back to normal. Taking yesterday off let me sleep a whole night! I'm sure you guys know what I mean, I don't think I've taken a whole day without typing since my honeymoon. (Basically I wake up around 2am with my left hand frozen in a claw because the tendons are inflamed. This is a problem I had as a kid when I broke my radius and ulna, and living in the middle of nowhere, had to kinda hold them together with a magazine and rubberbands for a while until I could get to a doctor, why it chose to skip the intervening 25 years, I have no clue) Not an attempt at pity! Everyone has problems that they have to adjust their life around so that they can work. That's actually why I typo so much and don't fix it! My pinky doesn't always work and I've kinda just given up on caring.
One other slow down we've hit is that, frankly, some of the older messages in the game SUCK. It feels really weird to look at a boring AF instakill, then mirror it into something super neat and special. So I okayed fixing the old class a bit. It's not a big bump at all, but dang... I never realized how bad some of the old classes are
I think that's it? I'm back to coding today, and the bossfight for Revenant will be super neat and I'm vibrating in excitement to get to it. I'll try to update more often with what we're doing!
But thanks for the updates!