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Classlead frustrations.
I'm already pretty tilted over classleads and I'm not sure where to voice my frustrations or how to do it in a manner that is constructive anymore. So I'm going back to 2005 Aetolia and making a post on the forums about it.
Here's the thing that pushed the tilt over the edge. It's really not that big of a deal, honestly. I'm not worried about anyone ever listening to me until I do the thing I say is broken. But I'm gonna explain it anyways:
Gyrfalcon report was rejected because a.) votes and b.) solution was basically deletion
This is all pretty terrible, honestly. Sentinels are in a pretty solid spot in 1v1. Solid aff rate, solid kill route, 1 active cure on top of Fitness and all the hinder like: lethargy, heartflutter, raven, idiocy, plodding, confusion, and epilepsy. Spirit liaisons called a lesser combination of that massively OP back in ye olden days of partisan liaisons. They even have access to frozen which is another form of hinder for bal classes. Not really viable in a 1v1 setting, but I'm throwing it out there anyways.
Not to mention daunt into blackout, a lock seal that can't be broken by any class except Syssin, traps, underutilized/not used resins, massive group support, and one of the last quick aff insta kills in the game that isn't gated behind something like leeched_aura or conviction.
I didn't come after any of that. I came after Gyrfalcon. A stupid bird that primarily effects Shadow classes due to Shadow's focus on pets (Sanguis, Domination, Warhounds, Animation). It provides a monumental swing in tempo when it hits, providing hinder and an increase in aff rate where applicable.
I listed out pretty damn good reasons as to why it couldn't be changed into another pipe aff or changed into a pill aff, and I thought I had explained why it was strong in its current incarnation. Iesid mentioned to me on discord about keeping the effect and tying it into Crocodile/Cockatrice slot, and I thought that was just as bad as deleting it, so I didn't suggest it, because in no world does it take priority over either of those animals. I didn't see a difference between putting it in a slot where it would never be used vs. turning it into a glorified minipet, except with the delivery idea you at least got something neat out of it.
But I got out voted, hard. Logics and facts were beat out by politics. Due to the admin policy of pretending that if we don't see the vitriol and toxicity, then it obviously doesn't exist, I can't even see the reasons for rejection unless it's a controversial enough decision/report. Maybe some lifer has a really good hint about how to cure a passive smoke aff that disables large portions of my offense while they have 2/2 of the standard soft lock decongestant affs also running passively. Sure would be real fucking nice to know such a thing even exists.
The last time I played Sentinel, I beat not only Aetolia's veteran elites with the class, but also took down one of the best PKers in all of IRE. The class received a nerf in the form of throatcrush no longer being comboable, but received /a lot/ to make up for it. I didn't come after any of those buffs, I didn't even come after trientia/daunt, which is definitely broken and definitely needs nerfed. I came after something that was overbearing for the majority of my tethers classes but unneeded and would not have effected the people using the class because they don't take advantage of it anyways right now.
I am incredibly frustrated with the system.
Here's the thing that pushed the tilt over the edge. It's really not that big of a deal, honestly. I'm not worried about anyone ever listening to me until I do the thing I say is broken. But I'm gonna explain it anyways:
Gyrfalcon report was rejected because a.) votes and b.) solution was basically deletion
This is all pretty terrible, honestly. Sentinels are in a pretty solid spot in 1v1. Solid aff rate, solid kill route, 1 active cure on top of Fitness and all the hinder like: lethargy, heartflutter, raven, idiocy, plodding, confusion, and epilepsy. Spirit liaisons called a lesser combination of that massively OP back in ye olden days of partisan liaisons. They even have access to frozen which is another form of hinder for bal classes. Not really viable in a 1v1 setting, but I'm throwing it out there anyways.
Not to mention daunt into blackout, a lock seal that can't be broken by any class except Syssin, traps, underutilized/not used resins, massive group support, and one of the last quick aff insta kills in the game that isn't gated behind something like leeched_aura or conviction.
I didn't come after any of that. I came after Gyrfalcon. A stupid bird that primarily effects Shadow classes due to Shadow's focus on pets (Sanguis, Domination, Warhounds, Animation). It provides a monumental swing in tempo when it hits, providing hinder and an increase in aff rate where applicable.
I listed out pretty damn good reasons as to why it couldn't be changed into another pipe aff or changed into a pill aff, and I thought I had explained why it was strong in its current incarnation. Iesid mentioned to me on discord about keeping the effect and tying it into Crocodile/Cockatrice slot, and I thought that was just as bad as deleting it, so I didn't suggest it, because in no world does it take priority over either of those animals. I didn't see a difference between putting it in a slot where it would never be used vs. turning it into a glorified minipet, except with the delivery idea you at least got something neat out of it.
But I got out voted, hard. Logics and facts were beat out by politics. Due to the admin policy of pretending that if we don't see the vitriol and toxicity, then it obviously doesn't exist, I can't even see the reasons for rejection unless it's a controversial enough decision/report. Maybe some lifer has a really good hint about how to cure a passive smoke aff that disables large portions of my offense while they have 2/2 of the standard soft lock decongestant affs also running passively. Sure would be real fucking nice to know such a thing even exists.
The last time I played Sentinel, I beat not only Aetolia's veteran elites with the class, but also took down one of the best PKers in all of IRE. The class received a nerf in the form of throatcrush no longer being comboable, but received /a lot/ to make up for it. I didn't come after any of those buffs, I didn't even come after trientia/daunt, which is definitely broken and definitely needs nerfed. I came after something that was overbearing for the majority of my tethers classes but unneeded and would not have effected the people using the class because they don't take advantage of it anyways right now.
I am incredibly frustrated with the system.
Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
5
Comments
The reason I post at all is to make sure that any perceived reason for most of Spirit tethers silence is not based on the belief that the report was rejected based on 'vitriol and toxocity'. Spirit tether does not make up the entirety of the voting pool as seems to be suggested. As @Keroc said in his decision when he showed the votes. It only gained two votes for (and one of those was an accidental response to another report.)
As with the Raloth report, it was heavily rejected by those who voted for it due to the nature of the submission itself, but was approved based on the sensible commentary from those that voted (and will be subsequently nerfed).
There are decisions on reports (both in this cycle and cycles prior) that we, as a tether, were stumped by. However, at the end of the day the only people that make the decisions are the administration. So please don't try to drag one half of the game through the mud out of a misplaced sense of spite.
If this was about avoiding hurt feelings, as you seem to claim, I think the report would have been approved.
Edit: Yah, there is definitely an assumption of tether tribalism being made here. Using it as some sort of shield against criticism and legitimate questions makes me uncomfortable, and I'd rather people not do that, because it WILL make this thread devolve. My question was not meant as a personal attack against a single tether, nor was there a need to make one out of it.
The administration makes decisions based on what they believe is best and while we might not agree, who is to say that any one of our individual opinions would be the right one? The only way forward is to try to get a better understanding of what the administration is looking for in terms of combat balance/vision and work with that in mind in future reports.
The solution and why it was the only solution offered has been explained now, twice, but the defense is still the same and still just as mind boggling. On a scale of Underpowered - Balance - Overpowered, Gyrfalcon definitely leans more towards Overpowered. This point hasn't been debated anywhere, the main defense still being 'deletion is bad'. No shit it's bad, but in this specific scenario there's not a lot of options that don't increase the power of Gyrfalcon or neuter it entirely. The skill is too strong in a 1v1 scenario. It's not so ridiculous that it would normally warrant this type of outrage, but it's a great example of how politics determine more than they should.
Not sure how else to respond to the rest. Benedicto says this thread has the potential to turn into a dumpster fire and then Church shows up immediately after with two cans of gasoline. You guys know I love a good meltdown and the matches are in my truck. Is this what we want?
@Tiur you can get out ahead of this one if you want and close it because if I get home and there's more I'll burn this fucking thread down.
And the bias is definitely there. I remember a time not too long ago when @Benedicto helped me test my hastily written Carnifex offense because Growl was egregiously broken at the time. And he was chomping at the bit for my proposed changes to go through. I even successfully nerfed my own camus bite damage scaling. I supported @Stine and his classlead on nerfing Desiccation Curse a couple rounds ago.
Now I'm reading reject and comment reports to my suggested nerf, and some of the exact same verbage is used ("delete or neuter"). It's obvious that the tethers get together, form a think tank, then parrot each other when writing comments.
I'll make an effort to take the sting out of my posts if it helps bring out some objectivity. I'm serious. I don't want to slip into this trap of defending my side's broken abilities because of the perceived notion that lifer side is doing the same.
The OP is meant to spark conversation and discussion to bring forth that clarification, there's no need to jump on the "fuck you" bandwagon, we're all rational, thinking creatures capable of a productive conversation.
Well, cool. I have no very strong opinion on gyrfalcon and don't plan to involve myself in the discussion surrounding it. I do have a strong opinion of his conduct here, and I don't think 'asking for clarification' is what he's after. Of course, neither you or I are Bulrok, so let's see what he's got to say.
He wants to express his frustrations without flame baiting. Or throwing 'unnecessary' shade, whatever that is.
That's fine. If you're then going to proceed and be very upset that people have the AUDACITY to join in or call you out, though, I don't know what to tell you.
As to @Fezzix's comments, those words ("delete or neuter") were used in both reports. It would probably be why they were used in the rejections and comments.
@Karhast No where did I day people weren't welcome to join in the discussion? No where did I flame anyone or do anything bait like until after Church and Czcibor? The invitation to discussion was implied I thought when I made the post. If it was just meant to be me raging I would have messaged Keroc directly, like I often do when I'm angry.
Definitely no salt or tribalism. I'm just being openly baited and when I took a nibble I have 2 more lifers jumping on the bandwagon.
No one has yet to list a reason why Gyrfalcon is fine, instead they've all hidden behind Kerocs decisions.
"Nobody owes you an explanation on their opinion." Fine. Expect yours to be dismissed just as easily. And yet here you are. Point out to me where you see the word "neuter" in my Raloth classlead, and I'll give you an entire set of chocolates in game.
I'm not going to close this yet, because I /hope/ that someone will decide that they want to chime in on the obvious mechanical discussion that's happening here in a constructive way, and we'll see less of the painfully obvious baiting that it has devolved into.
Everyone is complaining about the words 'delete' and 'neuter'. First off, let's look at the Mirriam-Webster definitions of 'delete' and 'neuter':
delete
verb
: to eliminate especially by blotting out, cutting out, or erasing
neuter
verb
1 : castrate, alter
2 : to remove the force or effectiveness of
Utilizing the direct nature of classleads, anything submitted to lessen the ability of a skill is a form of neutering, or otherwise called nerfing. So obviously, we cannot use this definition because it's something that is too open and too vague to use in an argument about classleads in general. So we'll stick with the word 'delete'.
Now, in the ACTUAL report itself, the word 'delete' is not utilized. In fact, there was absolutely NO mention of trying to get rid of gyrfalcon. Instead, what was proposed was from a combat change to a QoL change.
From an objective perspective, there's nothing wrong with trying to do that.
If someone can make an objective report sticking with pure facts, come to a collective decision utilizing ALL forms of offensive capability, and then make a determination that a skill is diagnostically overpowered... then it is fine to submit the change (such as was accomplished). This has happened MANY other times to OTHER classes (both Spirit/Shadow) and even artifacts. This will continue to happen even as we move forward.
I think the word deletion was something that was used and grabbed onto for shock value, instead of reading it for what it was actually trying to change. Which is directly from a combat utilization to a QoL utilization. Is there a further reasoning as to why it was rejected? Maybe.. probably. Do I know what it is? No.
But I do think that we should be able to be objective about classleads instead of subjective.
Gaslighting is a serious, severe and weighty accusation to be using over what could very easily be explained by misunderstanding, unclear verbiage, and quick bristling to anger, and while I appreciate the intent of your post I don't know if that word choice is especially helpful. It will only set people further back on their heels and make them more defensive - in fact, on second thought I really do not like the use, especially when projected from a position of authority, but I imagine it was just poor word choice. Just speaking from many, many wasted years of varied forum experience.
Admittedly, I initially read Bulrok's post through a lens of salt. This is, in part, because of the opening line admitting that he was tilted and didn't know how to put the thoughts in a constructive manner. For me, that colored the following text. There are also, at first glance, a few lines that could imply many of the things people are responding to here. I am in no way trying to put words into his mouth or tell him what he really meant, only pointing out that the phrasing of certain parts obscure the meaning and could, obviously, be misinterpreted to be inflammatory (clearly, given his later reactions in the thread, that was not the intent). That's as much as I'll say on the subject because dissecting word choice and phrasing is a pointless endeavor suited only to further dragging a subject down.
Going over the post a few times I think I get the point. So I will attempt to address that point.
Gyrfalcon is an ability that, presumably and according to the conversations I've sat in on and even the opening post of this thread, does not see enough exposure and usage to have a data set supporting whether or not it is broken. There have been several classleads rejected in the past (ones I have supported) on those lines, which is fair enough. Very often, something needs to be demonstrably overpowered instead of theoretically to receive adjustments. This was the reasoning for off-season shaman and templar nerfs, and I'm sure many other off-season nerfs. Largely, while I don't always agree with classlead results, I do not think that they are politically motivated and I think that overall they follow Keroc's vision for the game. So, while I agree with you, Bulrok, that sometimes I don't agree with a report's result, I think you also made a good point that if something desperately needs adjustment on a theoretical level it might not get that adjustment until that need is literally demonstrated. But with that said, I think that prevents balancing in a vacuum devoid of actual use and context, which is difficult to make reasonable decisions from.
Gyrfalcon itself is an ability I am not personally super familiar with. I dropped Sentinel a long time ago because I don't find the abilities particularly engaging. However, as I mentioned I have sat in on some conversations of the ability's use from people who have tested it. The consensus from those people was varied, raising points like: it could certainly work to press an advantage, at the point where gyrfalcon is making such a significant impact on your survival you are probably already too far behind for it to matter. Alternatively, they agreed that in theory it could be incredibly strong but it was certainly beatable and, if needing adjustment, did not require such a severe change. The final, main point I saw raised was that they had tried using it and found little success in terms of the potential issues raised in the report. So, while certainly it is a strong ability with the potential to really ruin another ent class's day, in theory and in practice people disagreed with the degree of strength of gyrfalcon and the vote count, at least, speaks to that.
Personally, I just always thought it was kind of boring, but I've never been a huge fan of the noninteraction with most ents.
Deletion is not an accepted solution because it doesn't often take into account the rest of the ecosystem of the class - ANY class. In the case of Raloth or Gyrfalcon, I feel that people asking for the outright deletion of the former and the neutering of the latter should have put a little more proof/data into their reports rather than saying 'Sentinel is OP'. I feel as if Sentinel is trapped in a Schrodinger's Cat type of limbo where we aren't precisely sure if it is any good or not because nobody seems to be representing it outside of team situations. Before any of you quote one another in an oroboric insistence that Sentinel is overpowered, where exactly is the proof beyond anecdotal evidence of an earlier era where Throatcrush was a combo skill? I have told several of you in private conversation that I accept that Sentinel's probably overtuned... but all signs of practical usage seems to point towards otherwise or there are no signs pointing anywhere. Perhaps we should stop measuring classes 'on paper' and wait for actual data to come in. Sometimes, after all, some things sound too good to be true in writing. This will always be my bone to pick with underrepresented classes getting classlead reports begging for nerfs. I was shocked to see no Zealot reports.
In line with this, we didn't have actual data to justify the Gyrfalcon report. Maybe we will next season. The Raloth report is another story, though, because Trample is pretty popular in teams. I entirely agree that quad breaks were/are not fair. The comments on that report confused me for other reasons I have discussed with @Hawa, but I can't really shake the feeling that the proposed solution of 'delete Raloth' should not have been the solution's very first two words. Leave emotion out of your reports and just make a logical argument. Using the phrase 'egregiously overpowered' does not do much but sound like hyperbole. I'm probably guilty of this too (Garrote report), but I do have the self-awareness to admit it - using the phrase "low effort", for instance, is probably not ever going to be part of my finest moments.
I don't think anybody has a leg to stand on when they bring up 'out of cycle nerfs'. Each tether experiences them. I'd say that Spirit suffered just as many of those last year. I am willing to dig back in changelogs to prove my point, but Feather, Consumption, Pulling, Vinelash, Templar 2H DMG are all good examples of things taken away from us. Any class that is nerfed out of cycle clearly deserved it.
I think maybe we should also not lean on semantics to be proving our points in this thread - let us leave Merriam-Webster for the grade school antics and sick burns, not a genuine venting of frustration with the classlead process. We all know what the Raloth report said. We all know what the Gyrfalcon report said. Let's not be disingenuous about the actual content of two public, submitted reports. A player was asking, in both situations, to either get rid of the skill entirely or depower it. In one case, getting rid of it was a step too far. In the other, depowering it doesn't have enough data to back it up. If Gyrfalcon proves oppressive over the next three months, trust @Keroc and the process. I'm sure he has his eye on it. I had to tell people this about the Spectre report's rejection last night.
Now...
On tether tribalism: perhaps we need to accept that we all play a part in the degeneration of our environment. While it is perceived that Spirit seems to be 'bandwagoning', I tried to explain this to a few people on the opposite side of the aisle: some of Spirit have pow-wows to gather our thoughts on classleads. We do not hand down talking points. We have genuine conversations that have the unfortunate property of being insular due to the inability for both halves of the community to sit at a table and have a logical discussion instead of some sort of half-assed sales conversation ("i'll support ur garrote nerf if u support my fireball nerf" - though I admit this was likely joking or salt more than a genuine offer). The animosity is at an all time high and this thread is proof. I can't even have civil conversations with most of you for one reason or another right now - and I do not just mean people on the opposite tether. Classleads should be an exciting time, albeit tense... not a shitflinging contest where we all try to smear one another into oblivion and end up causing people to have no real interest or attachment to their class kits.
There is a note of genuine complaint in the opening post and others. I have the same feeling about some reports currently on the chopping block for us. I have a genuine feeling of frustration regarding classleads because it is making an environment I don't look forward to logging in to. I usually enjoy the spirited debate on classlead merits, but I've for once muted any channel that has discussions about it because it is just not fun this season. Hearing my friends lament results and consider retirement is not fun.
We all need to take a big step back and ask ourselves why we're treating one another as less than human. The vitriol is out of control. The baiting is out of control. I honestly adore trolling and flaming when it is good-natured, but none of this is any of that. This is accusatory nonsense. All of us need to remember that the thing we have in common is that we play Aetolia and that makes us the largest community in the game by default - any other community, be it tether, guild, city, etc is a sub-community that should not take precedence. Use your head when you submit, say, or post something.
Lastly...
If you are not willing to be constructive, perhaps you should self-assess and ask yourself why you submit classlead reports. If the answer is anything aside from 'a more interesting/fair/nuanced game environment', you might be in the wrong line of work.
Onward to mechanical discussion and topical reasoning, as requested! I cannot give a date of implementation but, from HELP CLASSLEAD GUIDELINES:
Tweaking vs changing
-----------------------
Reports that recommend tweaks such as to balance, mana cost, damage, and so on will be more likely to be implemented then those that outright ask for drastic changes. Save requests for large changes when there's no path forward. Deletion is often not a good answer.
Bearing this in mind, I personally tend to reject any classlead whose conclusion is or boils down to "delete this," though I typically attempt to provide at least one alternative suggestion in the rejection comment if the problem itself seems reasonable enough - in this case, I believe I suggested something similar to Iesid's idea of exclusivity with the other affliction-giving animals. I did the same in the case of the raloth report, as I with the problem (if not its severity) but not the presented solution:
Rejected: "delete or neuter" is rarely a compelling solution, especially when the problem is not accurately represented - raloth trample has an incredibly small chance to break "all limbs repeatedly," as the number of limbs broken is random and can range from 1-4. Perhaps alter the chances of breaks to be on more of a bell curve, where 2-3 is the average and 1-4 are very unlikely? Alternatively, keep chances the same but fluff up the skill with some other afflictions - bruises, lightwound, cracked ribs, etc, to prevent this from being used exclusively to keep a target prone.
I'm not particularly attached to gyrfalcon itself or its current effects - I don't even really play Sentinel despite the absolutely beautiful potential of traps because I dislike "ent cloud" classes in general - but deletion is just a boring answer to just about anything. In this specific case I think there are a number of more compelling ways to address the issue that don't involve constantly trimming Woodlore down until there aren't even enough combat-viable animals left to fill the four available summon slots:
Full disclosure, I love a good salt-fest more than almost anything else in the world - but in spite of (or perhaps because of?) that I also wholeheartedly believe that it is important to acknowledge and accept that we may not have the perfect or complete image of any given situation. Maybe these suggestions suck - maybe the olive branch sentiment behind this post is wasted. I can't know without offering them, so I hope you will at least accept the latter and I welcome your feedback and opinions regardless of their shape.