Shops and Commodities

Slyphe

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Areka

One of the Delos shops only having 13 items in it. One of the Delos shops only having 13 items in it which are p. much the same things sold in the owner's OTHER Delos shop (and all of their other shops). Grump. 

Moirean

I know exactly which shops you mean, and I've been like O.o over that for RL years. 

Phoenecia

Gonna echo the shop frustration there since I know exactly who you're talking about, and it's even more annoying considering the amount of extra space ylem research trees and artifact shelves give player shops kind of eliminates the need for a person to have more than one shop in a single city. Shops are kind of a hot commodity, and it's really annoying when they're held by people who are inactive or barely stocked.

I've also heard that the shopkeeper in question is only willing to sell their shop for a certain price. I've actually debated buying it just to get it out of their hands so it can be given to someone else who can make better use of it. >_>

Xavin

legitimate question: why is there not a one-shop-per-character policy in delos

Phoenecia

Xavin said:

legitimate question: why is there not a one-shop-per-character policy in delos

The one-shop-per-character policy is primarily a player-enforced policy done in player-run cities; it's not really an 'official' policy. Since Delos (and the Refugee Camp) is neutral, there's no regulation on shops. Which makes it really annoying if an inactive shopkeeper has a buddy going in just to pay shop taxes. This can happen in cities too, but in Delos and the Refugee Camp, it's practically impossible to get a shop unless the shopkeeper doesn't pay their taxes or they sell it to you directly - both of which are rare.

Xavin

@Phoenecia: I understand that it's a player enforced policy in player-run cities. What I'm asking is why the admin haven't set up a policy like that in neutral locations due to the relative scarcity of shops to players.

Moirean

I've lost my Delos shop at least 3 times. I still mourn it.

Edit: Also, apparently the Carnifex SOLD the Delos shop while I was gone. Whyyyyyyyy.

Phoenecia

To be honest, I'd really love it if there was a policy like that for neutral locations. I'm thinking the reason why it's not admin-enforced is because people will probably whine about losing their shop after having paid so much for it. There's also the potential for loophole abuse. Like just handing off the shop to a close friend who has you allied and have them give you shop privileges so the shop is still technically yours, but it's just in someone else's name.

Moirean

I owned 2 shops in Eno for a while just because I couldn't stock everything in one. However, with the research expansion + shopcache + crafting shops + artifact shelves it's really hard to hit the limit. The Carni shop is capped out, but that's with only a level 2 shelf and because we sell like....everything possible, including guild-themed stuff and curatives for both undead and living. 

That being said, we don't offer a huge RANGE in crafted items, so I wouldn't say no at all to seeing the base stockroom size upped by 100-250 items. 500 seems low considering how many more tradeskills and talents have been added to the game since the shop system was initially created.

I've talked with a few people about the idea of an auction house or temporary market system, to give more options to players interested in selling stuff (which would, in turn, likely motivate more people to buy crafting licenses!). I also doubt it'd hurt much to give each city a few more shops as well as a few more shops in Delos - there are a lot more things to sell these days, so you wouldn't just see the new shops all selling the same stuff. Shops were cut down in overall number a few years ago, but since then there have been MORE tradeskills introduced, a new market sprung up around selling giftbag/chest items, new talents, research stuff, etc - in addition, there are always new crafters popping up, so even if 5 new shops were added and they all sold tailoring stuff, they'd be DIFFERENT tailoring stuff, you know? Variety is nice.

Periluna

Phoenecia said:

Gonna echo the shop frustration there since I know exactly who you're talking about, and it's even more annoying considering the amount of extra space ylem research trees and artifact shelves give player shops kind of eliminates the need for a person to have more than one shop in a single city. Shops are kind of a hot commodity, and it's really annoying when they're held by people who are inactive or barely stocked.

I've also heard that the shopkeeper in question is only willing to sell their shop for a certain price. I've actually debated buying it just to get it out of their hands so it can be given to someone else who can make better use of it. >_>

Said shopkeeper offered to sell my character their Duiran shop for 200 credits... I declined.

Moirean

Only 200?

Phoenecia

Just to further drive in the point that the average shopkeeper doesn't need more than one shop in a given city: every player-run city can have a max of 20 player shops; Delos has 12 player shops; the Refugee Camp has 14. That's a lot of shops. But then you have to take into account that at least three or four shops in each city will be guild shops for their respective guilds, and one will be reserved as a city shop. There will also usually be one or two order shops in each city. That leaves roughly a dozen shops for personal use.

Enorian, Bloodloch, Spinesreach, and Duiran shops can all have a max stockroom capacity of 750 depending on whether or not they've invested in certain research trees; the base capacity for Delos and the Refugee Camp is 500. With a level three shelf artifact, you can add an extra 400 to the stockroom capacity. The ability to add dye tags to craftable items also reduces the need to make recolors of most simple items. So really, unless you make a ton of completely unique designs, you really don't need to have more than one shop in a single city.

As a crafter, it's hard to get anywhere or make a name for yourself unless you have a shop, which is hard to get in the first place largely because 1) No one wants to sell their shops once they have one. If a shopkeeper goes inactive or ends up playing much less, they usually hand off the shop to a friend to protect their investment, 2) Shops can be pretty expensive to buy, especially in the most profitable locations. You want a shop in Delos? Be prepared to shell out AT LEAST 1 million gold or a few hundred credits for it, 3) A crappy location can completely screw over your investment.

Not all shops are equal. Delos has the most sought-after shops because it's a neutral place, and lots of people visit it. The Refugee Camp has really cheap shops when they go up for auction, but the location is pretty crappy and no one goes there, and your investment is largely wasted. Even within cities, you can get screwed over by location. In Delos? You get the most business in the northern half since that's where all the shops are. If you're the unfortunate person to own the lone player shop in the southern side of Delos, it's less likely people will visit. In the past, Enorian's eastern Medina shops tended to not get much business since most activity was concentrated around Four Corners.

Areka

The Medina shops are still painful. Part of that is choice of wares (my Medina shop's food and clothing), but I normally don't make enough to cover taxes there. Just really low traffic outside of noobs turning in vermin.

Alexina

You think Delos shops here are bad? They recently added one in Achaea and it sold for 15,000,000+ gold (that's roughly 2,500 credits at their market price). I personally think that the Aetolia administration has been more than generous to shopkeepers with the additions of casks, the brewing taps, the artifact shelves, as well as being able to sell items via designs so long as there's commodities of the appropriate types in the shops. Players hoarding shops in Delos does not really strike me as terribly unfair; they've purchased the shops and pay their taxes just like everyone else. That a person happens to stock few items is their choice and they are probably keeping a shop at a loss there. Sure, it's a bit galling when you're actually trying to get a shop, and I was trying to get one there for ages.

Really, the only thing I'd like to see here was people losing their shops if they go inactive (regardless whether taxes are paid or not). If you stop playing the game, you shouldn't have a shop. Transfer it to a friend or something, at least this way the shops will get new owners.

Haven

Adding to what @Alexina said, I also think shopkeepers as a whole could put in more effort in drawing consumers to their various shops.

Have a shop in the refugee camp or any "bad" location? Try to be creative in drawing people there. Make an effort to try to turn the area into an RP hotspot. Try to liven the place up a bit! (The admin could also help with this by adding quests or other minor activities near some of these more isolated locations.) Something more than just relying on reputation and or a witty ad. Festivals, dances, tournaments, etc from time to time could be done near these shops to foster a bit of business for a brief period if nothing else.

I forget who it was but there was one player (it might've been @Moirean now that I think about it. Way back in my true newb days) who drew me to their shop for a bit of RP and I ended up noticing that it was fully stocked as a one-stop shop (for my class anyway). I ended up being a loyal customer up until they stopped playing. Then I later found Alexina's one-stop shop which I fell in love with up until she got bored and sold it I think. And I think the only reason I bothered checking it out was cause we were doing an RP arc and she just happened to be there restocking her stuff or something. In any case, my point is that if shopkeepers go the extra mile they can generate business for themselves.

Moirean

That's basically what I did this time around with the H&H up in Spinesreach.

Still, I don't see what harm it would have to add a few more shops. More people spending credits can only be good for the game.

Setne

Everyone goes to Moirean's shop because there's usually always someone paying for everyone elses drinks. In Spinesreach at least.

Sessizlik

People don't want to sell their shops in the refugee camp either, because of "sentimental value" or "because I need some Place to store my memorabelia". It's highly annoying. I would easily settle for a shop there, since I was planning to run a cafe. Nothing fancy, but I would try get more costumers by holding events in the shop. Hopefully not too many people will steal my ideas when I say Triptycha tournaments and quiz-night, but that was my idea.

 

Nowadays, I've mostly given up on getting a cheaper shop and since getting gold has been going a bit slow lately, I've decided to just put it on ice for now. Instead, Sessi just makes a lot of food and gives it away, to make sure people don't forget about her cooking. Giving away food is expensive, when wanting to save for a shop.

Periluna

Moirean said:

Only 200?

I'd pay that for a shop in Delos. I'd pay twice that for a shop in Delos. Not an out of the way shop in Duiran. If converted into gold using current market prices, that's approximately 900K. Duiran shops are not worth more than 500K.

Mastema

What is a average loch shop worth now? My brother owns one but he has had it for years and forgot how much he paid so he is no use 

Moirean

Sessizlik said:

Nothing fancy, but I would try get more costumers by holding events in the shop. Hopefully not too many people will steal my ideas when I say Triptycha tournaments and quiz-night, but that was my idea.

I don't really think you can claim people are stealing that idea. Quiz nights and stuff have been fairly common tavern events in IRE games before. I held my first one like 4 RL years ago when brewing first came out.

@Periluna: The last Spirean shop auction ended up going for like 400 credits. I was pretty shocked. 

Minarael

Can anyone justify having a limit on shops? Why can't we have a shopping district in each city and establish a baseline credit cost for the initial shop purchase, expansions function in ways similar to a house, and allow people to set them up like pubs/restaurants and have multiple rooms to expand the shop stock. 

I can see absolutely no downside to this. Cities can still collect taxes and board up non-paying shops. It encourages more crafting licenses, would probably be a MUCH BETTER gold sink, would probably net IRE more credit purchases, and gives shoppers a much better range of options. 

Plus it prevents the loss of a huge investment. One thing I love about the credit housing system is that once you buy a house, you don't lose it. I sunk TONS of cash and credits into my houses in Imperian, three I lost completely due to political maneuverings. Three. That I lost for playing my character. The rest I lost because I wandered away for awhile. Like shops here, there are a limited number of houses in each city and it makes competition for them huge, and folks hold on to them for ages because they don't want to lose their investment, so they have friends pay for the upkeep taxes and they sit vacant. 

Toz

The only trouble I can see is the more shops you have, the more saturated the market becomes, and the less 'worth it' it is to have a shop. If Moi spends $money on a giant shop, and you're a little newbie who scrabbles up to buy a shop, she's going to out-sell you hard, and with every little newbie scrabbling hard to buy a shop to make money (the dream, baby), eventually you're going to have a lot of people losing money on shops. Whereas now, if you have a shop and sell decently, you're likely to pull a decent profit - the shop limit is an artificial prop-up for making sure shops do turn a profit. To put it in simpler terms, as I see it, the more shops there are, the less each shop is worth, and too many shops means shops are no longer 'worth it'.

Daskalos

 At the same time, because we are now being forced to pick trade skills instead of being able to have everything through multiclassing, you're seeing plenty of people with the craft skills, but fewer and fewer shops are offering the combat related stuff, which is part of the issue in that it can be hard to find combat supplies but I can find 10,000 pairs of pants. 

Xenia

@Daskalos, what combat supplies are you seeing a lack of? I've found that Iron Hill (in Delos), as well as a few places in 'loch and Spinesreach, have decent forged stuff. Additionally, there are always forgers who can do the custom forging that you want, plus enchantments, etc. As for curatives and the like, well you can find those pretty much anywhere.

Alice

wtb hunting/pvp related shop. Newblets like myself dk what is to be helpful on either specific occasion, but know that these nifty pants and necklace look good together! :P

Phoenecia

In regards to the lack of combat-related stuff: restocking weapons and armor is kind of a huge pain largely because of how quickly certain things sell, how much wood or steel you end up using, and how much the comms you use cost. For forging, most of the stuff uses steel and wood, which can get pretty pricey, and you need to forge a lot of it since weapons and armor sell fairly quickly. When I stocked forged items before, I restocked somewhat infrequently because it was kind of annoying to mass produce equipment, and because it was so expensive.

For curatives, it's even worse. Curatives sell VERY quickly. A shop cache can only store up to 5000 of each herb, and you're pretty much guaranteed to sell out of moss in a day or two if enough people decide to fill out their cache. There's also the harvest limit to take into account; you can only harvest 1000 herbs every RL day unless you have the arti harvesting gloves. If you own a shop and sell any concoctions stuff, you literally have to restock your herbs and elixirs EVERY DAY, which can get really tedious and annoying really fast. It's hard to find people selling curatives because they sell out so quick, and it's kind of annoying to restock if you're a concoctionist unless you're solely dedicated to it. It's why I dropped concoctions in favor of forging.

Areka

I keep Iron Hill Armoury well stocked and am always open to requests/notes, be it for design styles or weapon stat-builds.

I may be splitting some shelves to have extreme-tempered weps on one, and split-grades on another, so it's a bit easier to work through .

I have a harder time finding slices to fill my cache, but much of what Phoe said covers that - the harvest limit, harvesting being a bit tedious, etc. I'm buying 2k moss at a time, which is two days of full harvest limit for some concoctionist.

It WOULD be neat to be able to buy multiple rooms for your shop (same stockroom) and split your wares between them, along with sorting-shelf upgrades on top of the stockroom expansion arties. Though the prices of this might be a concern - I'd do so for IHill, but I'm still shy on making back the investment from the auction - getting closer, but still shy.

Teani

I'm not a merchant, never have been even though I'm a tailor, but I thought I'd share some thoughts on this whole shop-keeping thing.

From my understanding there are people who take on shopkeeping for their organizations, making them look like owners of a lot of shops when they are more care-takers for their orgs. Wouldn't it be kind of nifty if org shops were registered in a different way? Say the guildmaster has to write up a special contract with the city at an administrative building to mark a specific shop as an organization's rented property, then appoint a care-taker for it. This care-taker person would not be seen as the owner, instead it would be in the organization's name.

After that you set a cap on how many shops someone can own, perhaps one per city for both organizations and players (now hear all those hoarding shops for their memorabilia scream in protest). With the changes in shelves and research and everything else people have mentioned, it should make it easier to put what one needs in there or be prepared to lose stuff, like the rest of us lowly non-merchants who deal with normal decay times.

Not only will this make more shops available without crashing the value by adding more of them, but people would perhaps have to maintain their shops better by stocking them properly and keeping competitive wares to draw customers.

If there's a way to tighten loop-holes (or make people play more fair (unlikely)) so shops can't be owned by someone and used by their friend who already owns a shop, that would be awesome. Just don't have an idea on how to fix that yet.

Phoenecia

I agree with Areka on that it would be really nice to purchase shop expansions, but I don't know how that'd work, especially when ownership gets transferred and stuff.

Also, additional frustrations in regards to shops: I REALLY wish there were more perks to owning a shop in a neutral area, Delos in particular. As it is, Delos shops are really freaking expensive. If you want to purchase one on the rare occasion that one goes up for auction, the average price is around 1 million to 2 million gold compared to the 500k that it would cost you to buy a shop in a player city. It also costs 12k to rename a Delos shop and 22k to redescribe the shop room as opposed to the 5k and 10k for a player city shop. Delos and Refugee Camp shop taxes are much lower than player city shops (6k and 3k respectively), but at the same time the max stockroom capacity is only 500 compared to the 750 player city shops get if they invest in the commerce research tree, as I mentioned in a previous post.

So really, after paying a crap ton of money to get a shop in Delos, the only advantages we get are the neutral location and bigger customer market, and lower shop taxes. And that's it. While having a Delos shop is extremely profitable, it takes a really long time to break even on your investment, and player city shops still have way more perks. Considering how sought after neutral area shops are, I kind of think they deserve to have more perks given how much they cost.