The Beacon

Iosyne

This discussion was created from comments split from: Communication & Espionage Research Trees.

Macian

Angwe said:

I hate to bring up Achaea, but I really think the Dawnstriders set an interesting and relevant precedent for this sort of thing. Who is willing to walk in the Shadows to uphold the Light, and can you keep yourself pure? This is your test, my child.

With the right work, and minor skill mods, Luminaries and Daru do have skills that could be modded to fill this role. Angel skills include mindreading and tracking and searching. Telepathy is great for spying on conversations. Lightform could easily become more like phase.

Luminaries in particular need a new role, so changes that support this could be cool.

Daingean

There -is- corruption in Enorian.

And that is six hundred zillion times worse than there being artifice in Enorian.

Shades of grey don't -belong- in Enorian. That's sort of the -point- of picking a side in the grand schism.

I know there will always be some level of corruption and nastiness in any org, it's sort of the nature of the game. But that's no reason whatsoever for Enorianites - and specifically the Illuminai guilds - to be okay with it. We're supposed to -fight- that crap. There's more to being Light than hating the undead and their cronies. Of course, I like/want the polarization between Light and Shadow, so I understand that make me one of a dwindling group of players.

Daskalos

At the same time, you could take the stance Dask has evolved into - Bloodloch is enemy #1, Spinesreach is #2. Until they're gone, everything else is minor. But even Corruption gets misused. I mean, you look at Maghak's tenets and Dask would fit perfectly in that order - unrelenting force of will, uncompromising resolve, fighting for power tooth and nail - Dask is all of those things, but Maghak is a dark god, so Dask can't follow Maghak. Take the history of the Daru - they were EVIL bastards early on, attacking entire villages to burn out one vampire. Somewhere along the way, Light and Good became synonomous with each other, and they're really not.

Light is about extinguishing the darkness through whatever means, but with the 10,000 variations of Auresae that have existed, it's all gotten muddied. Heck, the Revelation, which is the guiding force of the two guilds, was written a decade ago and says don't ever talk to Vampires because you can't convert them because no cure existed.

I dunno, I really would like to push both Illuminai guilds in a new direction, and the backstory of the Illuminai allows for this to happen, without destroying the two guilds or their ideology. One commonly forgotten fact is that while Rahn\Mebrene gave the two guilds Illumination in the current era. Illuminai existed BEFORE the Great Artifice and this was a re-gift, the skills didn't come from them, they just taught us how to wield them again. The Daru's spark, right now, is actually a branch of the world tree that will burn forever instead of the original crescent - and it was made through a ritual with mortals. You made your own spark.

Phoenecia

Daingean said:

There -is- corruption in Enorian.

And that is six hundred zillion times worse than there being artifice in Enorian.

Shades of grey don't -belong- in Enorian. That's sort of the -point- of picking a side in the grand schism.

I know there will always be some level of corruption and nastiness in any org, it's sort of the nature of the game. But that's no reason whatsoever for Enorianites - and specifically the Illuminai guilds - to be okay with it. We're supposed to -fight- that crap. There's more to being Light than hating the undead and their cronies. Of course, I like/want the polarization between Light and Shadow, so I understand that make me one of a dwindling group of players.

I strongly disagree with that specific part I highlighted, because I think claiming that shades of grey don't belong in Enorian is total bull. No matter how good or pure or well-intentioned you try to play off your character or org, it's practically impossible to be 'truly good' because there's really no such thing from a narrative standpoint because of course EVERYONE is going to think they're the good guys - everyone's going to do what they think is the best way and the right way to achieve their goals. Even the whole Zealotry angle of the Daru can be twisted into a really dark light as doing literally whatever it takes to destroy the undead, even if it means killing bystanders. Shades of grey are going to exist whether you like it or not because its interesting. Having things be purely black and white in regards to morality is overly simplistic when resolutions aren't always that simple.

I also don't understand why it's suddenly considered 'bad' for Enorian to engage in espionage when it has numerous Syssin-classed individuals already and people who actively engage in such activities in some form anyway. Also, espionage can be seen more as a tool than anything else kind of like how Paladins were taught about employing the use of venoms - it seems shady and underhanded, sure, but it's a useful tool that can be used against your enemies.

Daingean

Daskalos said:

 

Take the history of the Daru - they were EVIL bastards early on, attacking entire villages to burn out one vampire. Somewhere along the way, Light and Good became synonomous with each other, and they're really not.

Light is about extinguishing the darkness through whatever means, but with the 10,000 variations of Auresae that have existed, it's all gotten muddied. Heck, the Revelation, which is the guiding force of the two guilds, was written a decade ago and says don't ever talk to Vampires because you can't convert them because no cure existed.

[..]

You made your own spark.

1 - The Daru do -not- teach that Light==Good, and in fact they -really- highlight that it's -not- good, and much of what we are required to do in our service to that cause could never be considered 'good' out of context. They still make a point of teaching that it's not our job to look out for innocents first. Dain is a little more evolved about it than he used to be, but the principle is the same. Now, he mentions that alternative methods could/should be pursued if they exist. That said, he would totally kill a family that is otherwise innocent if he felt that it'd destroy something he views as the enemy.

Either you fight the same things he does, or your role is cannon fodder. There's no middle ground.

2 - The Daru teach their interpretation of the tenets that has -not- been changed or muddied over time. Hell, when NewAure changed her tenets, the daru took one look at them and made exactly zero changes to the way they teach Her influence on the guild. The Revelation is also used as a sort of point of caution, 'those who seek to convert are often the ones converted'. The way Dain sees it, if someone is willingly seeking the Light, he's obligated to help them - but if they're not, then his only task is to erase them.

3 - I have been trying, icly, to find out more about this ritual for ig decades. No one seems to know, anymore, and it chaps my neck. That said, the Daru probably -shouldn't- change too much. That sense of purpose and direction is something they've never lacked, and I sort of adore them for it. They're the FIRE FIRE BURN THE BAD people, and I like it.

Daskalos

Right, but I guess the point is change the list of 'rah rah bad people' sort of like we sat down with Haven and said 'look, we don't agree with everything Duiran did, but let's go take out Loch and Reach before we start knocking out those trying to help us'. That's not to say allow Vampires or Necromancers in Eno, though.

Haven

Macian said:

Angwe said:

I hate to bring up Achaea, but I really think the Dawnstriders set an interesting and relevant precedent for this sort of thing. Who is willing to walk in the Shadows to uphold the Light, and can you keep yourself pure? This is your test, my child.

With the right work, and minor skill mods, Luminaries and Daru do have skills that could be modded to fill this role. Angel skills include mindreading and tracking and searching. Telepathy is great for spying on conversations. Lightform could easily become more like phase.

Luminaries in particular need a new role, so changes that support this could be cool.

Gimme some of dis.

Haern

We're moving off-topic here at a rapid pace. If you wish to discuss the roleplay of Enorian and its guilds' take on the fifty shades of grey, you are free to do so in another thread.

Daskalos

Haern, can you move posts on this forum and divulge us a new thread?

Haern

I'll see if I can. New forums voodoo, possibly incoming! 

 edit: Doesn't look like I can yet. I'll talk to Razmael about it.

Daskalos

Woot!

Aldric

Haern said:

We're moving off-topic here at a rapid pace. If you wish to discuss the roleplay of Enorian and its guilds' take on the fifty shades of grey, you are free to do so in another thread.

I read this in the context of the book fifty shades of grey. Toooooootaally changes things.

Haven

In the mean time we can continue the discussion on Enorian and her guilds here!

Thread moved/split!

Iosyne

I managed to split the original topic. Haven, if you wouldn't mind doing some edits, I'll get rid of your other thread.

Haven

Iosyne said:

I managed to split the original topic. Haven, if you wouldn't mind doing some edits, I'll get rid of your other thread.

Sure!

I think all the different views/definitions for Enorian/Light/Good to be perfectly fine. That's the joy of role-play and the name of the game that is Aetolian politics. I love the many different interpretations of each of the ideals and I find it fascinating when and which ideals tend to rise to power and topple over.

My character's thoughts? He would like the Luminaries to take a grimmer approach and take a step away from'Lawfully Good' as a whole and stalk towards 'Lawfully Neutral' but that's just him. They are the true Judges of Sapience and all must bow to their Justice!

Personally? I do not mind their current configuration. The balance in the guild is beautiful and supports the varied alignment ranges really well.

Daingean said:

Daskalos said:

 

Take the history of the Daru - they were EVIL bastards early on, attacking entire villages to burn out one vampire. Somewhere along the way, Light and Good became synonomous with each other, and they're really not.

Light is about extinguishing the darkness through whatever means, but with the 10,000 variations of Auresae that have existed, it's all gotten muddied. Heck, the Revelation, which is the guiding force of the two guilds, was written a decade ago and says don't ever talk to Vampires because you can't convert them because no cure existed.

[..]

You made your own spark.

1 - The Daru do -not- teach that Light==Good, and in fact they -really- highlight that it's -not- good, and much of what we are required to do in our service to that cause could never be considered 'good' out of context. They still make a point of teaching that it's not our job to look out for innocents first. Dain is a little more evolved about it than he used to be, but the principle is the same. Now, he mentions that alternative methods could/should be pursued if they exist. That said, he would totally kill a family that is otherwise innocent if he felt that it'd destroy something he views as the enemy.

Either you fight the same things he does, or your role is cannon fodder. There's no middle ground.

2 - The Daru teach their interpretation of the tenets that has -not- been changed or muddied over time. Hell, when NewAure changed her tenets, the daru took one look at them and made exactly zero changes to the way they teach Her influence on the guild. The Revelation is also used as a sort of point of caution, 'those who seek to convert are often the ones converted'. The way Dain sees it, if someone is willingly seeking the Light, he's obligated to help them - but if they're not, then his only task is to erase them.

3 - I have been trying, icly, to find out more about this ritual for ig decades. No one seems to know, anymore, and it chaps my neck. That said, the Daru probably -shouldn't- change too much. That sense of purpose and direction is something they've never lacked, and I sort of adore them for it. They're the FIRE FIRE BURN THE BAD people, and I like it.

Awesome! For shame monk combat deters me from playing my alt there more often.

Damonicus

No matter how "good" a city will be there will always be a seedier underbelly that does the work of "good" but the way to get it is not.  You can always play it off as 4/5th of the leadership is Lawful good, but you have that one that employs spies,. scouts, whatever you want to call it to do the more darker work. It is all about the roleplay of the city. I am sure Duiran is all ready to have their Rangers and Scouts start reporting. Spinesreach will have their Syssin spies, Bloodloch will have their vampire interrogators. Have Enorian have whispers from the heavens.

Valenae

My perception of this conversation is that we are trying to dictate what the stance of every person in a city should be. I think this is a very uneducated approach seeing that in a city you have many different people with differing personality types, backstories, etc. Having a common purpose is one thing but dictating how someone gives to the city is another. Endorse a character's useful strengths and if one of those strengths is spying on Spireans then praise them for spying on Spireans. If you don't like the skills someone is using - don't use them. The perception people have of corruption is very inappropriate. Corruption is an action not just a skill and that's what the city should be fighting. The actions that make Enorian less of a Beacon. If someone takes a skill that is inherently negative and uses it for positive outcomes then more power to them. 

Don't get me wrong - I understand the lore, I understand what it means to use the skills within the city - I get it. But if you have a Knight who stole the skills and works to use them to bring down the Spires or whatever their story arc is I support that. That being said, the skills should be used in an honorable way. If a character is rp'ing an loyal knight or a dedicated lumi and they get caught spying on the VG and the Heralds in a private conversation I think it wouldn't surprise me if it took a turn into a 'U r a traitor' arc. 

Alexina

The Vanguard sends in a small task force to sow disorder in Spinesreach. Half of the team sets off towards the market, the rest disperses to various pre-determined positions within the city. Suddenly, as on a given signal, several fires break out, causing chaos and confusion. Meanwhile, a group of cloaked men break into the city's commodity shop in a daring raid, stealing as much commodities as they can stuff in their Caches and leaving a few ylem-powered bombs to destroy as much of the remaining stockpiles as possible.

(Enorian): The Vanguard says, "Praise the Lord! The Truthseeker has bestowed a true miracle upon us! Divine retribution has befallen the artificers of Spinesreach; spontaneous fires have ravaged their wretched city! Also, I would like to thank the minister of Trade whose persisting efforts have filled the Warehouse to its brims with new commodities!

Valenae

Alexina, 

Go away. 

Daingean

I wish to clarify that I'm not in any way saying that I expect every Enorianite to be a zealot. I -am- saying that there should not be some sort of disagreement as to what the city exists for. It exists to stand in opposition of all things Shadow. That means that saying 'it's cool to be corrupt if it's for a good reason' would never fly.

When I say shades of grey don't belong in Enorian, I don't mean that we should all be archetypal characters without nuance. I'm saying that accepting things that are facets of shadow shouldn't be happening. That means that things that are clearly rooted in corruption/artifice/undeath should be universally reviled. 

Phoenecia said:

I strongly disagree with that specific part I highlighted, because I think claiming that shades of grey don't belong in Enorian is total bull. No matter how good or pure or well-intentioned you try to play off your character or org, it's practically impossible to be 'truly good' because there's really no such thing from a narrative standpoint because of course EVERYONE is going to think they're the good guys - everyone's going to do what they think is the best way and the right way to achieve their goals. Even the whole Zealotry angle of the Daru can be twisted into a really dark light as doing literally whatever it takes to destroy the undead, even if it means killing bystanders. Shades of grey are going to exist whether you like it or not because its interesting. Having things be purely black and white in regards to morality is overly simplistic when resolutions aren't always that simple.

I also don't understand why it's suddenly considered 'bad' for Enorian to engage in espionage when it has numerous Syssin-classed individuals already and people who actively engage in such activities in some form anyway. Also, espionage can be seen more as a tool than anything else kind of like how Paladins were taught about employing the use of venoms - it seems shady and underhanded, sure, but it's a useful tool that can be used against your enemies.

In response to your first blurb - I am in no way aligning being light-minded with being good. Ever, at all, even sort of. There's cruelty and malice and outright hatred in a lot of what Dain does for his cause. Dain doesn't want goodness, he doesn't even want nice. He's not nice. He's a [sharp object]. He wants Light in Enorian. Not sort-of-light and almost-light. That means more than just standing there and thumbing your nose at the undead, or necromancy. It means saying '[Facet of Shadow] is bad, and I'm not okay with it being in my city, and will ostracize it.' Enorian shouldn't say 'it's only wrong if I'm not doing it.'

In response to your second blurb - Just because it's useful doesn't make it suited to the ideals and purpose of the organization. I want syssin to be an option for everyone, because A ) There are mechanical advantages and B  ) The class is cool.

What I -don't- want, is to be made to fudge long standing lore / belief systems just because it's mechanically handy. I really dearly want there to be some sort of differentiation between syssin that spawned from Severn and syssin that the Spirit side uses. This isn't a new concept - there's Atabahi and Bahkatu, there's Ascendril and Sciomancer. Why can't we have a syssin that is taught by someone that's tied to the Light? My dislike of syssin in enorian has nothing to do with the class itself. It's all about where the class came from.

In response to Valenae - If an ability exists because someone that wants to killerate everything you stand for says it should, then it's bad, and should be considered bad. As an example, when Ivoln says 'you can manipulate earth because I want you to' and then you turn around and say, 'Well, I'm using it to kill His followers, so it's cool.' that doesn't negate the fact that every little iota of your power comes from the will of a god that opposes the very thing you claim to fight for.

There -should- be some lines that people aren't willing to cross, and I feel that a lot of people are just saying 'well, mechanically I can do it, so I'm going to, and neenerneener to the rest of you.'

Obviously, I'm biased, because I like there being extreme ends to a spectrum - Bloodloch is MUHAHA and Enorian is YOU SHALL NOT and then there's some tree folk and russians somewhere in there.

Haven

Alexina said:

The Vanguard sends in a small task force to sow disorder in Spinesreach. Half of the team sets off towards the market, the rest disperses to various pre-determined positions within the city. Suddenly, as on a given signal, several fires break out, causing chaos and confusion. Meanwhile, a group of cloaked men break into the city's commodity shop in a daring raid, stealing as much commodities as they can stuff in their Caches and leaving a few ylem-powered bombs to destroy as much of the remaining stockpiles as possible.

(Enorian): The Vanguard says, "Praise the Lord! The Truthseeker has bestowed a true miracle upon us! Divine retribution has befallen the artificers of Spinesreach; spontaneous fires have ravaged their wretched city! Also, I would like to thank the minister of Trade whose persisting efforts have filled the Warehouse to its brims with new commodities!

I lol'd. In Enorian's current incarnation though that would easily be a fast track route to political suicide at the very least.

Daskalos

Even though I think most of the Council would support such a raid. >>

Haven

Daingean said:

What I -don't- want, is to be made to fudge long standing lore / belief systems just because it's mechanically handy. I really dearly want there to be some sort of differentiation between syssin that spawned from Severn and syssin that the Spirit side uses. This isn't a new concept - there's Atabahi and Bahkatu, there's Ascendril and Sciomancer. Why can't we have a syssin that is taught by someone that's tied to the Light? My dislike of syssin in enorian has nothing to do with the class itself. It's all about where the class came from.

I think there is a large misconception both ICly and OOCly on various class lore. Unless I'm mistaken, the Syssin do NOT draw their power from Severn at all. The same way the Sentinels do NOT draw their power from Haern. They revere their respective gods  because they were shown the way/method/whatever but the abilities themselves aren't POWERED by the god. At least that's what I've always been taught. o_o

Alexina

While not entirely relevant to topic itself, when I first saw this thread I read it as 'The Bacon' and I couldn't help to wonder what Haven was posting about.

Haven

Daskalos said:

Even though I think most of the Council would support such a raid. >>

I think all of Enorian would support such a raid. The point I was trying to make was the 'lie to the masses'/artifice approach. It's similar to the vein of the backlash against Gepideth in that one arc about threatening the Constable.

Daingean

Haven said:

I think there is a large misconception both ICly and OOCly on various class lore. Unless I'm mistaken, the Syssin do NOT draw their power from Severn at all. The same way the Sentinels do NOT draw their power from Haern. They revere their respective gods  because they were shown the way/method/whatever but the abilities themselves aren't POWERED by the god. At least that's what I've always been taught. o_o

No, they're not. Never said/thought they were. It's the Teradrim that are. The Syssin, however, were given their abilities by Severn, afaik. He doesn't power them or anything, he just taught them.

Haven

Daingean said:

Haven said:

I think there is a large misconception both ICly and OOCly on various class lore. Unless I'm mistaken, the Syssin do NOT draw their power from Severn at all. The same way the Sentinels do NOT draw their power from Haern. They revere their respective gods  because they were shown the way/method/whatever but the abilities themselves aren't POWERED by the god. At least that's what I've always been taught. o_o

No, they're not. Never said/thought they were. It's the Teradrim that are. The Syssin, however, were given their abilities by Severn, afaik. He doesn't power them or anything, he just taught them.

If you believe that then what's the issue with being given the abilities by Severn? It's kinda like if a criminal taught you how to shoot a gun, that doesn't necessarily mean or make you a criminal. It's what you choose to do with said knowledge that defines you.

The Syssin guild as a whole revere Severn and his methods and as such choose to mimic him via Artifice/Manipulation/etc. That's what makes the guild "bad". The skills in themselves aren't the issue, it is their conduct. Whereas say... the Carnifex's abilities are empowered by the fact that you're ripping souls from the Halls to use. That makes the skills and guild "bad/immoral".

Nola

I've been told ICly various things about the Syssin abilities, from that they don't come from Severn, they were just taught by him, to where they do come from Severn, via the Shadow Plane. 

Obviously the latter can't be true with the current tethering system. But its very conflicting and confusing to keep hearing different things from reliable sources of intel.

Camille

I like Daingean's take on the subject and can see where he's coming from. The Syssin might not be directly drawing on Severn's power, but the skills were originally taught by Severn, which doesn't sit right with our friend Dain here.

It'd be like the American military suddenly all switching to Chinese rifles and taking the Chinese training regimen as their own; imagine the backlash.

Raeche

Actually, I never saw the problem with people thinking, "Light = Good", more that people are trapped in the "Light = Evil" state of mind. I prefer the 'shades of grey' interpretation of it, and that there should be a varied mix. It was nice when "Light = Good" was replaced with "Light = Evil", but even that gets stale when too many people end up playing it that way, and only that way.

Also possible that I just haven't met the good lighters.