Carnifex

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Mastema

The utter fail that is 1v1 Carnifex combat. The class is just rubbish now and I hate it

Aarbrok

Welcome to how Lycan has been as long as I have been playing.

EDIT: I just suck at combat in general xD....I am glad Carnifex is getting a good look at though.

Seems there is alot of holes missing potential.

Toz

Lycan is on the squishy side, but definitely viable in 1v1.

Carnifex is an aff-based class that has no aff-based instakill, it has a salve-based instakill while dealing less limb damage than a monk punch per round. Warhounds, is notoriously buggy, and the trans skill is a channel that lets you use 3 hounds to attack every 5s or so, giving it approximately 2 uses ever, none of which are for 1v1 play. Deathlore is a cheap knock-off of necromancy, with skills that do not (for the most part) even compliment the offense that they build up via savagery - it even has 2 skills that are an exact replica of each other. One does int-based damage on a 3.5s EQ, one does int-based damage on a 4s EQ. There are no functional differences between the two otherwise - obviously the 4s EQ one does slightly more damage, but is otherwise the same. The rest of Deathlore is just as stupid, with the only really 'interesting' add-ons being rust (which is forgettable) and soul poison (which is the only thing that can MAYBE make its aff-based fighting style work). Then we have Savagery. Savagery consists of spinslash, a slower version of shatter, and an ability (with a like 10 minute cooldown) that lets you ignore hindering status for roughly 20s. Hammer offense is impossible for 1v1, and the whole thing feels entirely, hilariously, pathetically unfinished. It's seriously the most uninspired, unimpressive class in the game, from a mechanical standpoint. Sure the flavortext is nice. The guild's great - Moi knows what she's doing when it comes to running it. But RP is pretty much all it has going for it - Carnifex is meh for bashing (look at Teradrim, or Cabalist, lycans can be monstrous too depending on where they hunt). It's lolbad for pk, with literally ANY class having more skill synergy/options than it does. It has 0 in the way of utility. Nada, nothing. 

In conclusion, yeah. I'd rather have infernal back, and it sucks to have an awesome guild and awesome RP built around a class that is legitimately unplayable.

Riluo

@Toz you hit the nail on the head and lets be fair the class is not going to improve much either unless it gets made better at afflicting and deathlore gets gutted. I tested a ton of the skills today with Mastema and Chelsea, and honestly I am shocked at the state of the class, how did Templar get made so incredibly powerful and its counterpart made so badly. The class has no synergy, no real affliction pushing ability or a decent instant kill. Then you can not raze slash and even if you gain soul there is nothing you can do with it.

What it needs is a bit of Templar spit & polish so the class can pump out afflictions for those who play as "speed knights" and an alternative limb route on par with other limb classes for none speed knights. Then use soul to bolster the class with bursts of limb damage (with hammer) or bursts of afflictions that hinder tree or focus (with polearms) at set intervals of soul 10% 20% etc.

I was going to get it as a second class but I would rather not waste my cash on credits. 

 

Moirean

I highly suspect the class's horrid PK is why we are languishing credit-wise. Both Toz and I have donated credits, just to ensure that we can hold events for the guild - yet admin tell me, no, you're doing things right, the guild is doing great, keep it up. No, clearly I am not, or I wouldn't be stressing out over how freaking poor we are, and members would be happily buying credits. 

I know that we're kinda just a waste of space right now, and I know that a guild that isn't producing credit sales isn't one that is appealing to IRE - but I suggested a ton of band-aid fixes via liaisons, stuff that would not be an insane revamp (eg, up hammer damage and let us hit 2 limbs at once), and stuff that would maybe give the class just a bit more viability and get people playing it more. Instead we are told that we're getting a revamp. I was excited at first, and the revamp looks really cool from what I've seen, but I know that coding is really backed up, so the revamp has been delayed. This means that my members log in even LESS and buy even FEWER credits, because they are just waiting for the revamp. I seriously have people who login, ask if there are revamps yet, see that there aren't and qq to play alts or other games.

Regarding the actual PK of the class, it doesn't help that we've been steadily nerfed. Our finisher was changed into a mechanically impossible kill (crushed chest now cures instantly, instead of after resto balance), soulstorm was downgraded to only hit shaman ents, soulthirst was shackled onto penetration stats (which means we now have a much longer build-up of attack speed and we have a functional nightmare of juggling like 4 different weapons just to do basic attacks). 

Sorry, ranting, but it's tiring trying to stay optimistic when, as GM, I acutely feel the drain of having a weak class, both through membership numbers and through guild finances. I'm doing my best - as are the rest of my guildies - to try to augment it through heavy RP and other activities, but it's tiring and kinda depressing, especially when other guilds mope about being so inactive and unloved and I see their logs and their constant credit intake.

Toz

Moirean        Commander of the Shadow Keep  Guildmaster    Teradrim

Borscin        Dread Lord                                   Teradrim

Toz            Dissonant Hammer              Secretary      Teradrim

Argolis        Tainted Knight                Novice Aide    Carnifex

^Only ones ever in Carnifex are the ones who can't afford a 2nd class. Pretty much how it goes, too.

Moirean

Eh, I go Carnifex when I am in the mood for some mega-hunting. With powerful statpack and artifacts, Carnifex is a great bashing class - people don't believe me in this, but it really is the fastest darkie class by far for hunting if you have crit boosting. You just need to have the artifacts/ylem defences to augment the lowish audit.

Ezrax

If you're ever going to complain about a class, complain like Toz. That's how you do it.

Ezrax

Also, Toz, the Sciomancers are exactly like that too (except Sciomancer is actually awesome for foci battles).

Valdus

We'll be posting up details on the Carnifex class as soon as we have something solid to hand off to the liaisons to test. They've already been shown the plans, but until we've got the details hammered out, it would just lead to wild speculation on specifics that are very likely to change.

I know it's incredibly frustrating to have to wait for something so vital to a class, but Moirean is correct in that we're low on coding power right now - all of the coding volunteers have been hit hard with RL priorities, and there are too many time sensitive projects (and projects ahead in line) to devote the effort the class deserves at the moment.

I'm hoping it will be worth the wait to you regardless!

Angwe

@Toz
It sucks that you guys can't set up a basic vlock, at least. Seems like you should be similar to Sentinels, but with a smaller aff pool but somewhere along the way they... changed their minds?

Damonicus

Can we give the guild something though, maybe a double bonus or something. Cause if we are so worried about novices currently and making all these things for them. Then they join a broken class. Something other besides RP is needed. Just my 2 cents.

Riluo

Remove the penetration issue so they can gain soul faster, give them double hammer hits to limbs and speed it up from 1/2 sec for hammers or more. Those hammers are slow as all hell.

 

I hope you guys get something now rather than later or your guild as going to keep slipping into the abyss (pun)! I watch novices join Bloodloch get your class and quit within a day or two to join other classes due to the yawn that is the Carnifex, which is sad as I know people genuinely like the rp behind it.

Mastema

I do not play currently because the class is utter crap. I have watched as people just quit weekly now because all it gets is nerfs and ignored. We are told nonstop sure it will be soon... it has been almost 2 years, and all the class has got is nerfed and told "yeah we will fix it". Just speed it back up, fix the soul issues and give us double limb hammer attacks please. I am so sick of helping novices for hours on end like I am a slave to the company, only to see them go "hey screw this, I am going <insert class>" It is depressing and honestly I am on the verge of quitting Aetolia out of frustration. And I don't want to quit but its on the table.

/bitching over.

ON A SIDENOTE: please could an admin put this in a new thread so we do not take over this one, pretty please.

Macavity

and people wonder why I said something on the other thread about the new Artifacts they have time to create.  I mean think about it this way...  This was posted on facebook. ***  Aetolia has just released 13 new artifacts - part 1 of their new artifact batch! We still have over 20 more new artifacts to release over the next few weeks....***   Now each artifact would take a few lines of code to put it into the game, if there are over 20 more artifacts that have been put into the game then that is roughly 40 to 60 or more lines of code that was added to the game for these items.  These lines of code could have been better put to use to updating Carnifex/Teradrim skills or any other mountain of bugs that are currently in the queue to be looked at and fixed.  

This is my rage right now.

Areka

Not all admin work on the same things. Some are able to work on artifacts, especially utility ones, that aren't able to work on the classes or deal with some of the bugs. Our volunteer population is pretty varied, and further varied with their RL situation. I understand the frustrations, but class things are delicate and frustrating in themselves (and getting things ready for liaisons is a big step, and I'll reserve my thoughts on Liaisons for another rant). 

Daskalos

Also, there have been a lot of promises made for the Year 400... which is literally 1 IG year away. I would wager resources are being put on keeping that promise after the last big 'Year' events never happened.

Toz

So how about you throw us a bone and bump up our novice bashing (so it doesn't take like 4+ seconds of balance per attack until you almost trans savagery) and ditch the pointless penetration change in the meantime? It's bad that we're stuck like this, but it's worse that we bleed novices because the class sucks and the bashing if you aren't trans is legitimately the worst in the entire game. I unfortunately don't have the numbers any more, but Barda was swinging somewhere in the neighborhood of once every four seconds, for laughable damage, until he finally managed to get 1k lessons sunk in.

Moirean

To be fair, newbies can always sink (fewer) lessons into deathlore and use barrage. I just really can't bring myself to tell newbies who join our class because we're the darkie knights "Oh, actually, go cast some spells to bash, we're crappy with weapons atm". But, the information is there in GHELP HUNTING if they want to try it.

Macavity

I thought all classes had their novice bashing skill dropped to the lowest possible so they can have something to bash with??

Moirean

The skill itself is accessible. The speed and damage scales with lesson investment, which means it's insanely terrible once you get out of the newbie areas but before you have learned to trans.

Rivas

Wanna know what's even funnier?


This is a novice (33% Capable in Savagery and Deathlore) muscular statpack with 17 (+1) Strength

With halberd:

[spoiler]Using POLE HACK in Savagery:

Hefting a massive halberd over your head, you lunge forward and viciously hack into a carrion beetle and messily rend his flesh.
Damage done: 307, cutting.
Balance Used: 4.78 seconds


Regular old HACK command that comes with the weapon:

Slicing downward with a massive halberd, you carve a carrion beetle open.
Damage done: 325, cutting.
Balance Used: 4.78 seconds[/spoiler]

With soul cleaver:

[spoiler]Using POLE HACK in Savagery:

Hefting an ethereal soul cleaver over your head, you lunge forward and viciously hack into a carrion beetle and messily rend his flesh.
Damage done: 300, cutting.
Balance Used: 4.80 seconds


Regular old HACK command that comes with the weapon:

You quickly strike a carrion beetle with an ethereal soul cleaver.
Damage done: 318, cutting.
Balance Used: 4.80 seconds[/spoiler]


The timing is terrible no matter what, but the regular weapon attacks do more damage as a newbie than the actual guild skills do. "Insanely terrible" is an accurate description, yeah.

Mastema

It gets no better at tri-trans with weaponry as well.

 

Bakhtuh

From what I remember from my novice days,  hammer bash is far far better for bashing than pole hack. Hammers however need to be purchased from a shop unlike the soul cleaver which can be summoned. The halberd/bardiche/cleaver only becomes a viable bashing alternative after learning spinslash.

Valdus

Macavity said:

and people wonder why I said something on the other thread about the new Artifacts they have time to create.  I mean think about it this way...  This was posted on facebook. ***  Aetolia has just released 13 new artifacts - part 1 of their new artifact batch! We still have over 20 more new artifacts to release over the next few weeks....***   Now each artifact would take a few lines of code to put it into the game, if there are over 20 more artifacts that have been put into the game then that is roughly 40 to 60 or more lines of code that was added to the game for these items.  These lines of code could have been better put to use to updating Carnifex/Teradrim skills or any other mountain of bugs that are currently in the queue to be looked at and fixed.  

This is my rage right now.

This is just really not how coding, or project allocation works unfortunately. We have a coder in charge of the Carnifex project who has been working on it since we conceived the class update. With multiple jobs and school starting, he is not going to be able to finish the work already started rapidly - without revealing too many spoilers, it includes a rather extensive overhaul of warhounds that places their attributes and abilities into a complex, and fun breeding system. That simply isn't on the same scale as adding long-promised artifacts.

We do not have any volunteer coders with any free time at the moment, and that means every project that needs implementation requires Razmael to do - on top of running the game and everything that comes with that, and yes, the upcoming year 400 events are a priority. Please remember that each time someone's project is asked to be put at the front of the line, that means every other project being worked on will be delayed. It is not a good use of time or resources to redo someone else's work, work that is being done immaculately but simply cannot be finished right now.

This isn't meant to be a list of excuses for why the work isn't finished - just some insight as to how the implementation process works. It's not as simple as allocating lines of code.

Issues like the scaling of newbie bashing are something that can be solved relatively quickly if it's a problem. I will try to take a look at it.

Mastema

Thank you for looking at the novice problem. Is there a chance you can remove the penetration issue while we wait too as the class plummeted when it got introduced, or is it complex coding!

Daskalos

What do you mean by the 'penetration' problem?

Mastema

I am not the best to explain this but in layman's terms in order to gain soul we are required to use polearms with at least 160+ penetration, which means we lose speed and damage on the weapon when its forged. Now this equates to a few things. Firstly we require speed to afflict (we are an affliction class)so having to put everything into penetration to gain adequate amounts of soul means we are now very slow and can not even begin to afflict. Secondly by hit rebounding just once we lose an attack and 2-3 soul. To regain that 2-3 soul back again requires that we hit with pole spinslash twice in a row without missing at all. By which time we hit rebounding again and/or are forced to strip it in both cases losing that 2-3 soul all over again.

This a dumbed down version as I am not a liaison so you are better getting Toz or Moirean to answer it fully. I can only explain it from my perspective.

What I can say is this if I hit you with pole spinslash once I get one soul, if I am luck to hit you again straight away I now gain 2 soul, if you have somehow lagged out and I get a third hit in I now have 4 soul total. It is that slow and every time I hit rebounding or get hindered those 8-9 seconds of collect turns back into 1 soul.  I hope that makes sense!

Again I suck at explaining things so ask questions if need be.

Angwe

From ANNOUNCE #2127

Deathlore
============================
 - The soul drain from Soulthirst is now modified by the penetration
   stat.
   * 135 penetration will equal what the drain was before, so more or
     less will change that.
   * I'll be keeping a close eye on this and making changes as
     needed.

Someone else could likely explain this better, but basically it was to prevent Carnifex from simply bashing unartifacted targets to death with no actual fight taking place. While it sucks that you don't have synergistic skills (as a Sentinel I sympathize,) I really would rather that change stay in place, as I remember fights before it.

Valdus

We are keeping the penetration change in place. Attack speed and damage scaling to soul drain is planned for a well-deserved removal in the update, and drained soul will become a resource pool for roughly a dozen new deathlore abilities. What may change is how the drain scales with the penetration stat.

We'll discuss bandaid fixes for the class in the interim if it looks like the class update is going to be delayed significantly longer, but I would not expect any major changes with those plans on the horizon.