Association Laws

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Sessizlik

Having to kill off 90% of my rp. I have a feeling Sessi is gonna go from the happy-go-lucky muffin girl to grumpy-bitter ration hag soon.

Moirean

Oh no, what happened? That sounds uncool, Sessi was great fun.

Sessizlik

Affiliation problems, I suppose. I had awesome fun too and now things are just gonna be grey and boring.

Moirean

I heard through a third party what happened, so I might not be entirely informed - although I have been seeing other stuff and hearing other things, so I know this is not some isolated incident.

Lifers really need to be careful with forcing such a hard-line stance against roleplay with enemy orgs. This isn't the Aetolia of a decade ago. We are past association laws, and all it really does is hurt your org if you deny them potential interaction with half the game - because I will tell you right now, Spinesreach has no such qualms and I even actively send my guild/city members off to interact with lifers to broaden their RP interactions. 

You're basically stacking the deck against yourself by limiting the FUN people can have - when darkie orgs aren't putting the same restrictions on people, it makes us a lot more attractive at the PLAYER level, because we simply offer more for people to do.

It's not hard to maintain a tense, zealous stance and outlook without simply resorting to a blanket ban on associations. Use creativity and find ways to engage people in your ideals in an INCLUSIVE way, instead of just demanding that people stop doing what the heck they come to this game to do: roleplay.

Edit: Just to be clear, my post is just about the killing of interaction between the sides in general, not just (or even particularly) this incident.

Xavin

From the other side, though, it is very, very difficult to see someone on your side of the game, in your orgs forming close friendships with people who, by all rights, stand against everything your org stands for without really seeking out too many people in their own/allied orgs.

There is no blanket ban that I've heard of. However, I've heard of people being told to rein it in.

Rivas

Xavin said:

There is no blanket ban that I've heard of.

You, uh...should see Enorian's laws in regards to what garners enemy status. It's headtodesk-ing ridiculously frustrating.

Sessizlik

I had this long post written, but I have decided to stop Before things get out of hand. I just Think it sucks and it's not exactly making me feel like the Ascendrils, who I have absolutely loved up to now, is all that fun anymore.

Xavin

...you weren't told you can't interact with anyone. At least, that's what I hope considering what Xavin said to Ciarelle about the issue. This sounds like overreaction. And really, it's not like there aren't people in allied orgs that will roleplay and such.

Nola

I think whats going on, though I'm not involved but I can take a pretty good guess..

There is a fine line between 'allowing interaction' and 'allowing you to form friendly relationships' with the opposing orgs. Involving the latter, for Spinesreach its not as big of a deal, perhaps it would even help benefit some people to reach their nefarious goals. For Enorian (maybe even Duiran on some level) thats not the case at all, and its not acceptable behavior, nor has it ever been see as acceptable behavior to them. 

But that doesn't mean you have to change your RP, just work around the things set out in the pathway. Your character should adapt to the circumstances, but not change altogether if you don't want them to. 

Setne

Nola said:

I think whats going on, though I'm not involved but I can take a pretty good guess..

There is a fine line between 'allowing interaction' and 'allowing you to form friendly relationships' with the opposing orgs. For Spinesreach its not as big of a deal, perhaps it would even help benefit some people to reach their nefarious goals. For Enorian (maybe even Duiran on some level) thats not the case at all, and its not acceptable behavior, nor has it ever been see as acceptable behavior to them. 

But that doesn't mean you have to change your RP, just work around the things set out in the pathway. Your character should adapt to the circumstances, but not change altogether if you don't want them to. 

Those same friendly relationships could also be seen as a possible way to have the person repent and join the "light" side imo. It's more than possible to be friends with your enemy. One issue that tends to arise in a large number of games, at least from my experience, is that the enemy is demonized to such an extent that ooc hate starts up, and any interaction outside of rawr fitefitekeel just continues to support the demonization. Interaction outside of that, both ic and ooc, can help people see that maybe(there are exceptions) the person on the other side is a cool person, and depending how things work, you can learn to respect them for standing by their convictions, or that they're fighting for honorable, if possibly misguided reasons, or maybe, they were misled and you can turn them. That's just my view on things.

Ciarelle

Right, I want to sleep, and I prefer to let people rage for the sake of it but hell, I've been named now.

Sessizlik was NOT told she couldn't interact with Spireans at all. In fact, she's spent quite a lot of time pretty blatantly interacting with them over the past few days and the Ascendril have let it go. She was told that Ciarelle wasn't going to approve a particular new avenue Sessizlik was going to pursue because to Cia's mind - and mine, honestly - it didn't seem like it was something that Sessizlik couldn't find if she asked around the Lifers a bit more. Sessizlik herself declared she was off to break ties with them after pushing the issue. Cia, who was pretty annoyed by that point, said she wouldn't discourage it. Hell, I've still got CMUD open, I can quote it if I have to.

It is actually a pretty hard line for the Lifers to walk but interacting with opposing orgs isn't the issue. In Sessizlik's case, she's been allowed to go off and do what she wants with fairly minimal interference thus far. I really can't see how it would make sense for a Lifer org, such as the Ascendril, to say it was cool for someone to go off and form strong relationships with people who are pretty blatantly working against the ideals they hold.

(Edit: typos, TIRED)

Nola

Thats a different opinion about it, yeah. Or different approach. But I've played in Enorian long enough to know thats not how -they- will view it, especially if you're not actually attempting to convert them in any way, you just wanna be buddies and hang out. Thats a conflict of loyalties forming, and its not in the best interest of the org for there to be any. 

Nola has had acquaintances, for instance. But she never broached the line to something more friendly in a lot of cases. Limited interaction, but pleasant to talk to on the off-hand occasion. A 'I'm not going to be your friend, but I'm not going to be your worst enemy' approach to that particular subject you talk about. But always reaffirming her stance and her beliefs into those interactions, if they lengthened too much.

This was in response to @Setne

Aryanne

This isn't in response to Sessizlik's rage, even though it's a related topic

I get really annoyed at how vanilla a lot of orgs feel these days. I feel like the primary point of my vanilla-feelings are that "anyone can pretty much interact with anyone and be friends and that's okay" I miss early days where I got ousted from the house and city just for being in a room with someone from the other side of the fence. There's tension there, forcing character development and progression of story and characters.

I understand that I'm TOTALLY on the minority in missing stricter lines of allegiance, but I do. Because to me, what we have now is a lot less fun as a player. It leads to places I'm at now where I don't really care about logging in because I'm bored and don't feel the pull of an interestingly dramatic world. I feel like I have to manufacture tension and drama, and that feels fake and OOC to me. 

I feel like characters can still be friendly and interact with people from the other side in my utopian Aetolia, you just have to be sneaky-sneaky about it. And if you get caught, there -should- be IC repercussions.

Nola

@Aryanne No I totally get that feeling. Without those borders and those restrictions then conflict between opposing orgs loses its meaning, or just doesn't happen like it should. I don't mind certain things being toned down, like RAWR don't talk to them, but.. certain other things, like hanging out and having tea or stuff like that just for the helluvit? Neh.

Sessizlik

I really didn't want to do the whole mile long post, but I need to explain.

Sessi has always told the people she has talked to that any attempts to sway her away from Enorian would be futile. It has -not- been strong friendships/relationships, as has been claimed here. It has mostly been strictly business, like gathering information. I hope Moirean can agree that although there has been laughs at times, there has always been a purpose with her seeking them out. Moirean has become a friend, yes, but that does not mean they are close or that they hang around all the time. Or even that they share personal information!

 

When it comes to selling her wares, from what I know, crafting is a way to earn gold and Sessi really wants to own her own shop. She was approached about selling muffins to a person, so that person could then sell them in her shop. This is a way to earn gold and gold is a good thing.

 

As for the apprenticeship, this was a HUGE opportunity to get to rp with Eleanor, who I have heard is a great rp'er. It would've been quite fun rping with her for two reasons. Learn to write better emotes and learn to do Crafts better. I know I have issues with my grammar and having someone like that around is huge help when you want to improve yourself.

 

I am not one to force my rp on anyone, which makes it difficult to get interactions. Let's face it, in Enorian, you have to throw yourself at most people to get a say. I love the Ascendril and actually like Enorian because there are some people I really look up to there, but to have your rp killed completely, yeah, it's never fun. Yes, I was the one saying I would sever all ties, Ciarelle agreed with it, but let's face it, I was rather pissed at the moment too.

 

End of rage. I'm dropping it now.

Minarael

Iunno about the Ascendril, but I feel pretty strongly that some of Enorian's guilds should be interacting with Spireans in a friendly manner. They should be approaching them, forming bonds, and encouraging them to shift allegiances. Conversion is a tough thing. Asking someone to abandon their closely held ethical and moral beliefs is not something one does lightly. Characters who focus on that 'Beacon' aspect of Enorian's RP really need to have some wiggle room with association. There's a reason why missionaries go into foreign nations and build hospitals and orphanages and the like. They immerse themselves in the culture of the group they want to bring their faith to, offer them solace and healing and see to their practical needs because it opens the door to the good, charitable feelings that open minds to new ideas. It is paradigm shifting. You don't get that through a friendly but distant nod. We can't have missionaries who build better infrastructure, but they can build goodwill in other ways. 

That said, backlash about that wiggle room that doesn't entirely kill it can and should still occur, I just don't think it should be institutionalized by the city and by at least some of the guilds. Tension is created by the grey area. If it isn't banned, but the general idea is that bonds formed are for the purposes of opening the path to conversion, there is no real, concrete way to -prove- that's the intent of a relationship. Some people are bound to get prickly, point accusatory fingers, view missionary-style characters with distrust or outright hatred. That can create interesting RP. Drawing hard lines in the sand actually KILLS avenues of RP, it doesn't help strengthen the core role of a guild or other organization. 

Moirean

@Aryanne:

Eh, I dunno. I think mechanical repercussions are far less creative and interesting than roleplay ones. Eg, getting kicked out of your org vs being beaten up or a bit of corruption burrowing into your soul or whatevs. I've been kicked out of orgs for standing in the same room as the other side and that wasn't fun at all - being punished by having a zombified version of myself follow me around as a constant warning against my actions, or a stone seed constantly whispering dark thoughts into my mind? Yeah, that stuff was fun.

Vharen

Grey lines are fun  

This is a sort-of related rambling on mechanics, so feel free to hit the skip button.

I dunno if side-hopping is stigmatized here, but I'd like to see lesson loss dropped from $150 to $30 bucks a tri-trans profession for someone changing sides, and roleplay given incentive over decisions based on the monetary cost. I'd probably prefer lesson loss get nuked entirely, but I'm not crazy enough to think IRE folks would do that. The 50% loss is also the same system used from "Most Classes Are Clones" Achaea (not sure if they've changed things up, but it was that way when I played), which meant that your RP choice could be made independently of the class choice in many cases. 

Reducing the cost would give more value to the grey-line roleplay in almost every sense. This includes people trying to convert (more likely to convert someone for a 10% lesson loss over 50%) and makes the hard-line stance less of a serious issue ("I better not go against the will of the leadership of my city, or I may end up having to spend $150+).

Aryanne

@moirean

Oh, see, all those are WAY COOLER versions of repercussions than just "BAM, I OUST YOU WITHOUT ANY RP" (cause yeah, that can be lame and just as blah as apathy), and would be so awesome if happened. My rage is that there seems to be little to no repercussions at all.

But yeah, if repercussions were coming like that - that would be even way more awesome

Minarael

There's a middle ground between hard-coded nifty consequences and ousting. There's the potential for RP that is player-driven. 

Conflict is fun. (See the entire event that just recently occurred and how absolutely thrilled to participate in it people were despite losing eyeballs, babies, and minds.) Grey lines provide opportunity for interesting RP conflict. Black and white, hard-line stances do not, imo, offer nearly as many. 

Aryanne

Having all characters who see the world as black-and-white would be crazy-boring, and I wouldn't want that at all. However, what I rage over is orgs and not characters. Having gray-lined characters is boring and less notable if all your orgs are indifferent to their gray-ness.

Think of my rage as the forum layout. I like gray! Gray is great and awesome. But gray used to accent gray with some gray on the side of a gray box with gray writing is boring and blah and painful.

Gray is awesome if it's used in contrast with other things. So, I guess my rage is that there is too much gray and little else to contrast it with? Or something.

And I will concede the point that minimalistically-RP'd mechanical repercussions are not a solution to my rage-y problem.

Piper

Piper said:

Alright.. it's an old subject but I got to bring it up anyways. I HATE.. hate hate hate hate.. blocking people based on tethering and guilds. You all rage about Bloodloch autobanning based on treaties. I get that.. I really, really get that. It makes sense. No one likes to scare off a noob or person trying to encourage tense RP.

I dislike having solid tension removed because it's so much easier to have people deal with the mechanics of the game rather then deal with the player, behind the character, trying to get in for RP. You all say, 'yeah, that's fine. Meet them outside the city' but that doesn't always happen. Kerryn made great steps but people will always prop their characters inside their cities when they don't have to step out, about 50^%+ of the time.

ICly, it makes sense to do this.. but that's never stopped anyone from raging at Bloodloch for it, on all sides. If you have problem characters, handle it with the problems. Don't blanket statement entire organizations and cut communication and contact because of it.

Given the discussion, I felt this was worth repeating.

Arbre

You know, I've been trying to allow the Shamans to be really open to darkies.  I don't look for people hanging out with others and when I hear about it, I tell them to be discrete and not stupid.  They'd have to really work their unicorn off to convince me that getting engaged to a Spirean is an acceptable thing, and if I found out they were banging undead I'd flat out tell them to stop (and then assume they do it in a hidden haven room), but I'm gonna work hard not to punish people for wanting to RP.  Arb still has friends in both Spinesreach and Bloodloch and visits Spinesreach fairly regularly (would Bloodloch too, if she weren't enemied).

Ciarelle

Right, so, believe it or not, I actually like cross-factional RP. I am all for it, but I think the conflict of interest and the tension is a major part of that and it actually really stuns me on an OOC level when people think that the only RP going on around that is when everyone nods, smiles and lets you do whatever you want.

I really, quite seriously think it would be bad, boring RP if the Spirit-aligned organizations did just let their members go and hang out and do whatever they wanted with whoever they wanted. The further Light you get, the more hardcore the ideals are about being opposed to undeath, artifice, corruption etc. I'm not here to make a comment on how well that gets embodied by the Light orgs but that's the ideal and it just wouldn't make sense for them not to try to ensure their members have minimal contact with acts and people that support clearly oppose their own. Again, the degree to which that happens and what is fine/not fine is going to vary. I would expect a bunch of zealots like the Luminaries or Daru to be more strict than the Ascendril, and I honestly think it makes sense that the Ascendril are less fine with supporters of the Undead (that sounds so dramatic) than the Shamans.

It doesn't mean cross-factional RP suddenly stops occurring and I really don't think cross-factional RP is necessarily being shut down when a character gets told that no, a certain thing isn't cool with their guild or city. To be really clincial about it, the character can do one of three things:

1) Accept it - become more "light" because of it, become all bitter about it, work for change from within, become bitter and hermit-like

2) Bargain with the person saying no - are they particularly adamant about it? Can you argue them down? What can you offer? How are you going to prove your points? "If I do X, will you then reconsider Y?" "If I stop doing A, would I be able to do Y after all?" 

3) REBEL - go and do that anyway, really obviously, and risk their wrath. Go and do it on the sly. Ragequit.

This is all still RP. What happens is going to depend on the characters and the context as well as the organisation. I don't want to get back to the example that prompted all of this - I'm cool to keep defending my character's actions but her player said she wanted to let it go and I'm respecting that - but there's generally going to be a host of factors at play in a given situation and I, at least, am not going to try to merely shut anyone down. 

Basically, your character not getting to do exactly what they want =/= no roleplay.

Minarael

Ciarelle said:

I am all for it, but I think the conflict of interest and the tension is a major part of that and it actually really stuns me on an OOC level when people think that the only RP going on around that is when everyone nods, smiles and lets you do whatever you want.

::

Stuck in a quote box again.

Anyway, I don't think that got said? I dunno what Sessizlik's situation was, but I think there is a range of interaction. I think tension, conflict, and attempts to convert via honey rather than spite and malice are all perfectly valid avenues of exploration for Enorians interacting with Spireans. 

I think boning and marrying them is pretty clearly stepping over the line, but friendships are a definite gray area and should not be codified as always bad by some of the Enorian guilds.

Piper

My issues only really come when someone utilizes game mechanics to enforce the association laws rather then anything else. I've had Piper hanging around Four Corners and LOVED it when someone outright calls her names or treats her like she isn't even something worth their time. That is awesome roleplay and I really dig it. She's been chased out a number of times by people that don't even want to see her. That's beyond great, too.

I just get frustrated when suddenly all that goes away when being enemied for association such as a guild or other organization...though banning Undead and Vampires is okay. I can't see that ever becoming ICly acceptable when standing around Enorian.. anyways, I legit like having that sort of RP where someone says 'no, you are evil and we hate you. This is why. Now I will refuse to say hello and make things as tense as hell when you're around' so much more than I enjoy guards cutting my head off.

Moirean

Thing is, you can still push your org's tenets and outlook without just banning or limiting interaction - when a cut-back on interaction is mandated, that really is more of a mechanical/OOC solution, as it basically boils down to "don't RP with these people." Cross-faction RP does not equate to being friendly and smiling and agreeing, bear in mind, and I think it's somewhat of a strawman to insist that is what it is. Bene and I, for example, interact quite often and one of us is usually cursing the other one out, and I'd say we're on more pleasant terms than some of the cross-faction RP pairings you'll find.

A blanket limit on interaction, however - and again, this really isn't about this specific issue, but rather the slashing away at cross-faction in general - means that hostile interactions or "hey-I-hate-you-but-the-world-is-ending-so-let's-try-to-work-through-the-hate-for-an-hour" interactions are also limited. For example, I've repeatedly gone into public areas to poke at some young lifers I see, only to have my head ping like ten times and the kid say something like "My city says I have to leave now" and then the newbie run off. I think making people just straight up run off because 'enemy', without giving us interactions to even shape WHY we are enemies really robs something from the rich engagement people can have in conflicts and their character's outlooks - being CHALLENGED in your beliefs is the type of RP that helps you define what they are, better than any essay or guild interview will do.

There are alternatives. Issue spy tasks. Make people conduct scouting missions. Do the message-of-peace missionary stuff Mina mentioned. Walk into Spinesreach and give a sermon about the light, frantically screaming about Auresae as liquid steel is poured down your throat. Insist that the person may be corrupted by their contact and hold a ceremony to cleanse them. Lock them in a tower without supper. Simply insisting on limiting interaction is boring and frustrating - creative punishments and situations give people stuff to work with. Organizational punishments such as demotions, disfavors, ejection, etc are far less fun and close off a situation, rather than letting it open up for further development.

In contrast to Ciarelle's closing statement, I think as org leaders, it's partially our job to ensure that players DO get to do as much as they want. We just have to think up ways to spin it to work.

Aren

One of the main reasons why the harsh association laws the Luminaries once had is gone is because of the whole 'cure and reform' thing. I trust the guild to make informed decisions about who they're with, but if even I saw someone who was around a known enemy for most of their name, I would get suspicious. 

That's not to say I would do the whole oust immediately thing. I love RP and punishing someone in different ways is always fun :P

I wrote the post I did on public recently to try to get some more interaction with the darkies, even if its bad. I guess a lot of the worry I have with speaking with baddies is the whole 'instant pk' thing. Not blaming anyone for doing that, but there are many more creative ways to get at your enemy. 

Lin

Aren said:

I wrote the post I did on public recently to try to get some more interaction with the darkies, even if its bad. I guess a lot of the worry I have with speaking with baddies is the whole 'instant pk' thing. Not blaming anyone for doing that, but there are many more creative ways to get at your enemy. 

This is by no means a mode of behavior exclusive to any one side or faction.

Ciarelle

"Thing is, you can still push your org's tenets and outlook without just banning or limiting interaction - when a cut-back on interaction is mandated, that really is more of a mechanical/OOC solution, as it basically boils down to "don't RP with these people." Cross-faction RP does not equate to being friendly and smiling and agreeing, bear in mind, and I think it's somewhat of a strawman to insist that is what it is."

I didn't say that's what it was. I said that I was surprised OOCly when people seemed to think that this was the only way it could be done and that anything else was destroying their RP. I also just listed a bunch of things you can do that are follow-ups to being told no to dealing with someone. I really can't see how that's purely an OOC/mechanical decision.

"In contrast to Ciarelle's closing statement, I think as org leaders, it's partially our job to ensure that players DO get to do as much as they want. We just have to think up ways to spin it to work. "

I think you misunderstood me. You, the player, can do what you want with your character, but why would all the IC organisations let your character do WHATEVER they wanted? An extreme example, but if you're a Daru and go off and become the vampire-boffer incarnate, and tell the Daru GM that's what you're doing and that it's just for fun, you just really like that stuff, the Daru GM is going to have to be either extraordinarily naive or corrupt to actually go "yes, little zealot. Go. Have fun." 

I'm not against fraternization or cross-faction RP. Ciarelle isn't against cross-faction interactions either. There's a context to Sessizlik being told no to a cooking apprenticeship with Eleanor, just like there's a context for why she decided it was fine for her to interact with characters like Moirean.