Communication & Espionage Research Trees

Iosyne

Just like Slyphe, I'm also excited to give some teasers to the upcoming changes we have planned for Aetolia. This thread is just a small preview of two upcoming research trees we will be releasing in the near future - Communications and Espionage. To keep with the mystery factor of unlocking trees, though, we will not be revealing any individual abilities of course!

Espionage will add an all-new spy mechanics system to cities, which will have various success or failure rates depending on their current detection levels. Spies will be able to perform minor information gathering actions early on, with the ability to sow some real chaos at the higher research tiers. 

Passive: The passive for this tree affects the detection level of a city's spies with each subsequent level.

Communications will be an interesting mix of utility and ease-of-use upgrades with the intention of improving organizational communication in various ways. A city who unlocks and levels up their Communications tree will see some serious advantages on a tactical level as well as providing some very cool benefits to their economy, particularly player shops. 

Passive: Focus in on a particular set of commodity production, boosting that set by 2.5% per rank in Communications.

As always, these previews are subject to change and tweaking as we continue development and move closer to a release date. I hope you enjoyed this little taste of what's to come!

Daskalos

Those look awesome, but I have a question - will more ways to secure ylem be forthcoming? We're having trouble maintaining four trees as it is, and I'm sure the other cities are having the same problem.

Slyphe

Yes, there are going to be new opportunities for gathering ylem, as well as a restructuring of some older mechanics that just are not working for us.

Daskalos

Awesome!

Daingean

Someone needs to retcon artifice away from being a bad thing, so that I can properly have my artifice-hating zealot okay with things that have been entirely not acceptable to him forever, without it feeling metagamey. There's no reason whatsoever, currently, that a Zealot - or really, an enorianite - should be okay with syssin and to a lesser extent, espionage. But mechanics say we have to be, and that causes uncomfortable clashing, at least for those of us with hardline characters.

I can almost see the seething rage at the concept of espionage as a widespread Enorianite enterprise. It's already difficult for him to accept Syssin in Enorian. Yes, I'm aware, my character is sort of extremist, but.. he's a Daru Zealot. He's supposed to hate everything that isn't RAH LIGHT, or at least dislike it. Mechanics have always trumped rp, but it still makes me sad to have to turn my head and ignore the way he -should- react because there's zero way to avoid the things that go against his belief system.

That said - I'm really glad there are new trees coming. Research is a neat thing.

Saybre

Daingean said:

Someone needs to retcon artifice away from being a bad thing, so that I can properly have my artifice-hating zealot okay with things that have been entirely not acceptable to him forever, without it feeling metagamey. There's no reason whatsoever, currently, that a Zealot - or really, an enorianite - should be okay with syssin and to a lesser extent, espionage. But mechanics say we have to be, and that causes uncomfortable clashing, at least for those of us with hardline characters.

I can almost see the seething rage at the concept of espionage as a widespread Enorianite enterprise. It's already difficult for him to accept Syssin in Enorian. Yes, I'm aware, my character is sort of extremist, but.. he's a Daru Zealot. He's supposed to hate everything that isn't RAH LIGHT, or at least dislike it. Mechanics have always trumped rp, but it still makes me sad to have to turn my head and ignore the way he -should- react because there's zero way to avoid the things that go against his belief system.

That said - I'm really glad there are new trees coming. Research is a neat thing.

It already exists in Eno..*cough* *cough*

Alistaire

Which really doesn't change anything Dain just said?

Aldric

General question regarding Ylem: Are some of the current perks in the Military tree going to be replaced/modified with the war system being currently deactivated, seeing as we have no need for troops and the likes?

Razmael

Daingean said:

Someone needs to retcon artifice away from being a bad thing, so that I can properly have my artifice-hating zealot okay with things that have been entirely not acceptable to him forever, without it feeling metagamey. There's no reason whatsoever, currently, that a Zealot - or really, an enorianite - should be okay with syssin and to a lesser extent, espionage. But mechanics say we have to be, and that causes uncomfortable clashing, at least for those of us with hardline characters.

I can almost see the seething rage at the concept of espionage as a widespread Enorianite enterprise. It's already difficult for him to accept Syssin in Enorian. Yes, I'm aware, my character is sort of extremist, but.. he's a Daru Zealot. He's supposed to hate everything that isn't RAH LIGHT, or at least dislike it. Mechanics have always trumped rp, but it still makes me sad to have to turn my head and ignore the way he -should- react because there's zero way to avoid the things that go against his belief system.

That said - I'm really glad there are new trees coming. Research is a neat thing.

There's a difference between Artifice and spying. If it ends up being a problem, we can take steps to clarify this ICly.

Aldric said:

General question regarding Ylem: Are some of the current perks in the Military tree going to be replaced/modified with the war system being currently deactivated, seeing as we have no need for troops and the likes?

We will be replacing these eventually, yeah.

Daskalos

I know where Daingean is coming from, for a long time we've been told 'you don't skulk around in shadows and spy on people, because that's artifice'. The two Illuminai guilds are still kind of sketchy on the Syssin, even though many of us (myself included) have the class. It just kind of feels rough, because you don't want to deny someone being able to play the game in a way that they enjoy, especially in these two guilds which are smallerish and you don't want to run away a good player over it, but at the same time, the guilds -should- be against it because of previously established RP.

Did that stream of consciousness make sense at all?

Kiyotan

Razmael said:

We will be replacing these eventually, yeah.

Soon™

Lin

Hey hey hey, Razmael said it, not Big G. It might be soon!

Daingean

Daskalos said:

Did that stream of consciousness make sense at all?

It did. And does.I'm the first to stand up and say 'let people play the game' - Dain has fought -against- some of the more out-of-hand hardline, just because I, as a player, know that some people are gonna play like they're gonna play, and you're better off rolling with the punches.

That said, nothing about the nature of the syssin class fits in with any of the major facets of the Light as I see it. Maybe I'm being really picky to say it, but sneaky sneaky seems pretty much the anthema to Truth and all that it could encompass, and that's just one of them. The same applies to spying - it's just.. underhanded. I understand that there's a 'can't beat them, join them' angle there, and it's the big push for anyone / everyone to get syssin and use the [face] off that class to be the sneaky [bjorn] that they are, and the espionage tree, I am sure, will be full of goodies that it's difficult to live without.

It's just harder to accept them from the previous, long standing angle that took everything that wasn't on the up and up and slapped it with the 'No. Bad.' label. I could shift Daingean's definition of artifice, but.. well, there comes a point where the dictionary definition just plain overrides the desire for it to be something else.

"Clever or cunning devices or expedients, esp. as used to trick or deceive others."

Syssin in a sentence? Sure. Some argument could be made for espionage not to be quite the extreme, but.. well, if you're not deceiving people while you spy on them, you're probably going to die.

Raeche

Daingean said:

Someone needs to retcon artifice away from being a bad thing, so that I can properly have my artifice-hating zealot okay with things that have been entirely not acceptable to him forever, without it feeling metagamey. There's no reason whatsoever, currently, that a Zealot - or really, an enorianite - should be okay with syssin and to a lesser extent, espionage. But mechanics say we have to be, and that causes uncomfortable clashing, at least for those of us with hardline characters.

I can almost see the seething rage at the concept of espionage as a widespread Enorianite enterprise. It's already difficult for him to accept Syssin in Enorian. Yes, I'm aware, my character is sort of extremist, but.. he's a Daru Zealot. He's supposed to hate everything that isn't RAH LIGHT, or at least dislike it. Mechanics have always trumped rp, but it still makes me sad to have to turn my head and ignore the way he -should- react because there's zero way to avoid the things that go against his belief system.

That said - I'm really glad there are new trees coming. Research is a neat thing.

I actually enjoy the flavour that Syssin-lighters bring.

There is the idea of corruption, and giving into temptation for the easy way of doing things.

I -would- give a slight bump to those hard-liners who refuse to go Syssin though. Simply for the fact that effective intelligence gathering cannot come at the necessary cost of being corrupt. It can be harder to remain upstanding, but it shouldn't come at too much of a disadvantage.

Maybe have mind lock not have bell tattoo reveal you, or that by linking minds, you are able to mind lock across 2-3 areas (to overcome the problem of being enemied in cities), and that using link+lock allows bell tattoo to reveal you.

Something that allows intelligence gathering that is fitting with their current ethos.

Daskalos

At the same time, some of those Syssin abilities have very interesting messages if I recall - swirling in a vortex of light, using mirrors, et cetera.  Everyone has artifice in them (the great artifice, anyone?).

 

I don't have a problem with intelligence services, and actually had started one last time I was Vanguard with some divine support and a few mobs in place, and I was Damariel's OH at the time. At the same time, I wish I could turn the Luminaries into the anti-Syssin that serve sort of the same role, and we've talked about taking the guild in that direction some, since we can lightform, angel mindread, et cetera now. It's just something to look into.

Lin

I think it's really all on how you spin it. There are plenty of fictional works that will feature agents of Light, Holiness, what have you, engaging in espionage and subversion. Think of the Assassins from the Assassin's Creed series, or maybe Hellsing if manga/anime's your thing.

Hadoryu

I dunno, isn't this sort of thing exactly what makes roleplaying fun?

You HAVE to have espionage, or you put yourself at a disadvantage. You hate espionage, giving you a nice bit of cognitive dissonance to deal with IC.

Lin

RP has to be simple to understand, Hadoryu. Go flaunt your shades of grey elsewhere.

Angwe

I hate to bring up Achaea, but I really think the Dawnstriders set an interesting and relevant precedent for this sort of thing. Who is willing to walk in the Shadows to uphold the Light, and can you keep yourself pure? This is your test, my child.

Iosyne

I'm also going to second what Razmael said, that the spy mechanic for the upcoming Espionage tree should not bear any resemblance to Artifice or by extension the Shadow sect of skills.

Personally, when I envision this, I see something more closely related to the spies in the Sid Meier's Civilization games. More intelligence-focused as opposed to raising new moral questions. Sabotage, confusion, disarray, etc. Many of these things are in the same vein of abilities that a city like Enorian would already utilize against their enemy - using lightform to spy, angels to mindread, telepathy to infiltrate, just to name a few.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, even the holiest of nations still had to get their dirty work done somehow. To say that no corruption exists anywhere in your nation would have you living in a serious state of denial, or otherwise engaging in an intricate layer of lies yourself. And that is in itself a very interesting line of RP to pursue, in my opinion!

Damonicus

One thing I would like to see is quests in Delve to gather Ylem in a non comm way for your city. Where they pay you in ylem crystals or whatever that you as the player can take to the pylon and have it absorb. Make them even once per howling quests. It would allow anyone to help support the cities in their own way and maybe even bring some lore around ylem, delve and sapience.

Kiyotan

In that same vein, I hope that one of the Communication upgrades is that CT can be heard no matter which continent/island you're on. That feeling of disconnection is what keeps a lot of people away from Delve. 

Aldric

Iosyne said:

Personally, when I envision this, I see something more closely related to the spies in the Sid Meier's Civilization games.

Only if we can get a sound effect added similar to that of the spy's movement song in the console version of the game whenever one of the perks is used.

Iosyne

Damonicus said:

One thing I would like to see is quests in Delve to gather Ylem in a non comm way for your city. Where they pay you in ylem crystals or whatever that you as the player can take to the pylon and have it absorb. Make them even once per howling quests. It would allow anyone to help support the cities in their own way and maybe even bring some lore around ylem, delve and sapience.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, we are planning to release some additional ways to gather ylem to coincide with the release of these two trees.

Alexina

You need to add a Diplomacy tree as well. So, so, so much could be done with that.

Arbre

Diplomacy and Tree do not go together.

Haern

Damonicus said:

 maybe even bring some lore around ylem, delve and sapience.

The Academic Quarter will no doubt be booming with lore reads in the future that discuss the scientific and planar nature of ylem and its presence within our world.

Daskalos

Any chance there could be a list somewhere of what all these amulets you get from Tradecenter do? Also, would be nice if instead of the white amulet not stacking with artifacts it didn't stack with divine blessings, since it has the exact benefits (minus the damage shield) of the blessing?

Xarian

The point of the amulets is to be an alternative to artifacts for people who can't afford artifacts. They should never stack with artifacts.

Alistaire

I'm gonna have to speak out against the idea that I don't get something because I support the game with real money.

Lin

Thanks Dask, because I didn't give myself enough work to do!