Events

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Rivas

Yes, I realize I'm about to rage about an event. Hear me out.

Rage at events that are lose/lose. Rage at events that exist only to stir up unicorns, without any viable solution. Being given only two options, either of which makes you out to be the bad guy to someone. Rage at events that, over and over, target Enorian and give the entire city (or at least those who participate in the event) grief. Rage at events that leaders can't opt out of without looking like bad leaders (yes, I'm a leader, I have responsibilities...but as a player I should be able to avoid SOME things that make me unhappy as a gamer, y'know?). Rage at events that just-aren't-fun.


Rage when the entire paragraph above is encapsulated in one single event. Ugh.

Phoenecia

That gut feeling of thinking you know how a certain event is going to end because previous events revolving around the same or similar thing have ended the exact same way. Every time. To the point where everyone in the org knows what's coming and most either don't bother participating or participate only to shuffle things along faster in order to get it over with because the result is usually the same.

Edit: Rivas took the words right out of my mouth.

Moirean

I assume you are referring to the Chiav stuff? I might be off on this, but it didn't strike me as an event so much as a broadening in choices, perhaps as an introduction to the factions. I don't think the Dark Empire has attacked anyone so far (and I didn't get the impression that they would, but the guy might have been nicer to Spines), and I'm actually a bit jealous of you guys - Enorian has the really cool option right now of debating between which is more important: ideals or tangible power/resources, which is a great tension and a nice dip back into the roleplay from a few years ago (eg Edhain and war, Hadoy's grey paladins, my favorite Enorian era).

But maybe things have gone a lot different on the Enorian side. I haven't seen logs.

Macavity

it seems the Light get more Events than the Dark side anyways..

Phoenecia

I'll come right out and say it. It's not the Chiav event that we take issue with. It's the whole effing plotline revolving around the Dun orcs and ogres in Enorian which has turned into a social justice commentary on how racism and oppression is bad. And this isn't the first time it's happened. The entire event seems designed to point out 'lol look at how awful your leaders are, and how awful your citizens are, you guys are horrible human beings and utterly fail at equality'.

Having played in Spinesreach before, I've never seen any other city get the butt monkey treatment as much as Enorian has. People play the game to have fun. Yeah, social justice issues are important, but injecting them into the game and making events out them doesn't exactly equate to a fun time, especially in the ways Enorian seems to get hit by. People don't like dealing with racist, unreasonable bigots in real life - shoving them into our faces and having to deal with them in a game where roleplay matters isn't enjoyable. Bioshock Infinite has racists, but you get to kill them. The racist, xenophobic Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught in WoW? You get to kill them too. Here? Sure, you could kill them, but then your RP gets damaged.

I mentioned it before, but if you want people to actually get excited for events instead of going 'oh, great, how are the admin going to screw us over this time', this sort of thing needs a limit.

Yusri

In my experience the players in Enorian screw their events far harder than the admin running them do.

Corlin

Pretty sure there's a rage in here that talks about the last major event Enorian had, that espouses the same rage.

I honestly cannot remember the last time Enorian had an admin run event that was actually positive for the city, unless we're counting when the orcs and ogres came to Enorian, and that wasn't really a... thing. It just sort of happened, and the only time anyone really remembers it is when someone comes along and spews racism towards the orcs and ogres.

I don't want to say 'please stop giving us events' because events are, as a rule, pretty okay. But I do want to say 'please stop making the events in and around Enorian basically paint by numbers excuses for the city to get buggered.'

This current event [as Phoenecia stated, not the Chiav] was so similar to the last time Enorian got a stick in the eye that everyone I've talked to just said, 'so, is this like the time when Haven lynched a guy?' or something along those lines.

Edit: @Yusri - I'm not going to claim I'm often involved of even close to events, whatever city they're in, but... from what I can gather, the bulk of the events in Enorian [judging by the rage posts that seem to appear when the events do] appear to be railroads that the players don't really -get- a say in, beyond deciding who might get to take the blame.

Areka

I enjoy these events, that make hard decisions and have characters really prove themselves and their convictions. What ends up happening in Enorian in particular, is it shoots itself in the foot and doesn't learn from its own lessons and errors and treatment. It repeatedly reaps what it sows and then complains about it. then -doesn't learn from it-.

Illikaal

Yusri said:

In my experience the players in Enorian screw their events far harder than the admin running them do.

Actually, I've gotta disagree there. There was that large cluster of events that Enorian had that was always a lose-lose situation. It started with some event happening, and it ended up being Severn or Chakrasul screaming LOL CORRUPTION/ARTIFICE at the end of it,if the Enorianites went along with it. The one or two times that it actually ended up NOT being Severn or Chakrasul trolling Enorian, they Enorianites ended up shunning or attacking the person that entered the city. Can you really blame them for that?

Haven

Why don't people utilize their aides/minions/helpers/whatever whenever they don't want to deal with something? o.o

People do it in real life all the time, it boggles my mind why people refuse/don't do it here. Granted, you have to balance how often you do it and stuff otherwise people will get to thinking what it is you actually do as a leader...but I don't see the problem in going: "Hey guys, I'm going to let <aide/minion/helper/slave/etc> take over on this one. I trust their judgement blah blah blah."

Moirean

I dunno, I always personally tend to find it more engaging and exciting when bad roleplay stuff happens to my character/org, versus just nice things. It gives me something to work to fix and maybe a new neurosis to add to the list. I think conflict and strife is why we ultimately play the game - if our characters were always winning or just sitting around happy, things would be very boring.

Carnifex got an event a monthish ago. I spent like a month before it drawing in people from other orgs to help, adding rooms to the guildhall, making news posts and generally RPing to help lead up to this big attack on the Abyss. We got really hyped - and then it utterly failed. Like monsters popped out and the gate we had opened stuck its tongue out and taunted us. We could have been disappointed and upset over the event turning out to be an utter failure for the guild. Instead, my response was to stick Moi's hand in the gate and make a sweet-ass steel cyber arm out of those lemons we got dealt. The guild bounced back and now we're just doubly determined to go fight Dhar. Individual members, like Bakhtuh, have made their own personal goals based on the event's failure. 

In short, I think the Carnifex event itself was a success - it got people active and created spin-off roleplay, which is the entire point of an event. Now, the trouble would come in if the Carnifex, like, lost gold or credits because the Abyss failed - loss is fine for promoting RP conflict, but tangible losses like that, especially if players can't control it, come across as simply unfair. I think Aetolia does a decent job of managing that and if an org loses something big (like the Carnifex losing their tutor) the admin ensure that replacements get made (which means more RP which is yay!). 

I guess my question is, what exactly is the bad part about the events Enorian gets? Are people dying a lot or is the city losing money from it? If it's just roleplay conflict and value questioning, how is that a bad thing? IMHO, that's exciting roleplay which helps the city and its members define what Enorian's ideals are and see them in action. Again, I don't know about the event in question, so I may be missing some key points here.

Daskalos

I wasn't there for the orc\ogre thing, though I saw the shouting and thought 'what the heck is that about'?. That being said, I had a conversation about 2 years ago with Galleus and it was basically this: most events in Aetolia is organization A does something, then organization B either fights against it\tries to stop it. Other than player initiated wars, I can't think of many instances where Enorian got to play the part of the aggresor, even if we ultimately lose. Yes, we 'win' a lot of events but that's because we're the 'good guys' and 'good always wins'. But we're always playing the defensive, and it would be nice to play the offensive sometime... and anytime we ever try to do -anything- Bloodloch\Spinesreach have players who will try to spy on it, and when they get run off\killed, they run back with a huge group and then the event becomes a huge PK fest.

As for the orcs\ogres... where is this coming from? This seems to pop up every few RL months, stir up drama, then just sort of fade. Honestly, I hadn't seen any issues recently until this mob started yelling they were unclean. Other than it being a social commentary, I'm not sure the purpose behind the event. That's the other thing... events that cause tension between two orgs - great. Events that cause internal tension - why? I mean, if you had a segment of Enorian supporting Undeath, yes, absolutely, it makes sense. But racism? Really? I just don't get it, but times like this remind me why I quit being in Enorian leadership.

Congratulations, Rivas. Now you get to understand why Dask as a character is completely untrusting of everything that walks into Enorian and generally just wants to maim on sight.

Do note that this isn't a critique of this administration, who overall is doing an awesome job, or this event in particular. It's more of a general commentary for something that has been brewing for a long time.

Meyvitch

I did not know about the last two of these...I just remember Iosyne trying to eat Omei and running around with Angwe to get corpses to offer her. Recruiting pixies? Awesome!!

Illikaal

Meyvitch said:

I did not know about the last two of these...I just remember Iosyne trying to eat Omei and running around with Angwe to get corpses to offer her. Recruiting pixies? Awesome!!

Making posts while getting noosed, like a boss. 

Meyvitch

:P Where do you think I was when Calipso attacked me? Writing posts, or barfing out my guts, it's going to be one of the two.

Haven

@Daskalos: The internal conflict in Enorian is not the Admin's fault. That's 100% on the players for not rallying under one ideal/banner or following the lead of their elected officials and I wouldn't call such conflict a bad thing either. It highlights the differences between the various interpretations of and approaches to the Light within the city and begins to expose the kind of culture (or lack thereof in some cases) a city has to offer.

The Zealots aren't going to agree with some of the things the pacifists/whatever you wanna call them do and vice versa. This is where political power comes into play. Who runs the city? Who holds the most influence? Whose agenda can be pushed forward in the name of the city's theme? This is what I personally find fascinating about these particular events and where Aetolia's political system has a chance to shine.

Though I do agree with your other point about how a lot of the time events are forced down Enorian's throat to out them as failures even when they resist it.

Moirean

Haven said:

@Daskalos: The internal conflict in Enorian is not the Admin's fault. That's 100% on the players for not rallying under one ideal/banner or following the lead of their elected officials and I wouldn't call such conflict a bad thing either. It highlights the differences between the various interpretations of and approaches to the Light within the city and begins to expose the kind of culture (or lack thereof in some cases) a city has to offer.

The Zealots aren't going to agree with some of the things the pacifists/whatever you wanna call them do and vice versa. This is where political power comes into play. Who runs the city? Who holds the most influence? Whose agenda can be pushed forward in the name of the city's theme? This is what I personally find fascinating about these particular events and where Aetolia's political system has a chance to shine.

Though I do agree with your other point about how a lot of the time events are forced down Enorian's throat to out them as failures even when they resist it.

While I definitely agree with this, it should be noted that this really is assuming that the citizens are mature and skilled at handling the conflict. Often, especially with big enough crowds, you get derps being derps and it just becomes a headache, which probably is why Rivas is frustrated.

Daskalos

Redirecting this Calipso derail into the Enorian derail @Haven - 

I don't see the internal conflict. No offense, but 95% of the internal conflict in Enorian came from... you. There is no Ashtan anymore, no 'traditional' good city, so Enorian has both the extreme and the traditional good. Most of Enorian's leadership has learned that you can play the straight zealot, but you're going to lose half your population and end up getting your ass kicked the second a war system is re-implemented. Or you can focus on the commonalities (which is what Haven wouldn't do, what Alterus isn't doing now) and try to create issues. 

Eventually, it gets old and people move on. But this race thing being 100% players? Where? Am I missing something, because the only instances of racism I've seen is from mobs controlled by admin, which is all fine except those characters had never shown those traits in the past. I'm starting to think we've got bipolar mobs. 

Also, @Calipso can't count, because she's issued me at least twice (and both have been dismissed). So yea. 

Haven

Daskalos said:

Redirecting this Calipso derail into the Enorian derail @Haven - 

I don't see the internal conflict. No offense, but 95% of the internal conflict in Enorian came from... you. There is no Ashtan anymore, no 'traditional' good city, so Enorian has both the extreme and the traditional good. Most of Enorian's leadership has learned that you can play the straight zealot, but you're going to lose half your population and end up getting your ass kicked the second a war system is re-implemented. Or you can focus on the commonalities (which is what Haven wouldn't do, what Alterus isn't doing now) and try to create issues. 

Eventually, it gets old and people move on. But this race thing being 100% players? Where? Am I missing something, because the only instances of racism I've seen is from mobs controlled by admin, which is all fine except those characters had never shown those traits in the past. I'm starting to think we've got bipolar mobs. 

Also, @Calipso can't count, because she's issued me at least twice (and both have been dismissed). So yea. 

I... think you misunderstood my post. Here's an example of what I mean:

Admin start event where a severely wounded bandit wanders towards Enorian's gates and pleads for help.

• Enorian Group 1 says: Let's comply. Give him water and bandages and send him on his way.
  
• Enorian Group 2 says: Let's comply but jail him rather than send him on his way afterwards. Sure he's got a bounty somewhere.
  
• Enorian Group 3 says: He's on his own. Bar him from our city.
  
• Enorian Group 4 says: Let's kill him. He serves the Shadow with his life of villainy! Faith demands it.
  
• Enorian Group 5 says: *popcorn*

Then a debate/argument/whatever you want to call it ensues. That's internal conflict which is ALL on the players. The reason why this occurs is due to the fact that there are different interpretations to what the Light means/should do. The method/choice selected is dependent on who is in power or has the most influence at the time in the city.

If all of Enorian believed in one standard thing then there would only be one group and little debate/internal conflict.

Moirean

Group 2 is composed of ten Stannis Baratheons.

Stathan

Few things.

1. Enorian has factionalized standards like Haven mentioned. I've seen this in simple conversations such as what happened between Phoe and Dask. Not taking sides or anything, just saying that caused a split of mindset, which seems to be lingering waiting for a cause to just jump up and cause issues no matter the actual task at hand.

2. Never had to deal with Calipso personally but have had enough friends that have been dealing with her and her annoying antics and I recall a few more than a few people who did similar things, but more death was involved, and got turned into bushes that do nothing but rustle. Also, there is IGNORE for a reason. Giving someone attention for their acting like a prick, you just give them what they want.

3. Rage at NPCs talking to me randomly and telling me to do things that end horrifically.

Angwe

Macavity said:

it seems the Light get more Events than the Dark side anyways..

Duiran gets one every couple of RL months.

I have never seen a Sentinel event. Ever. I've been thinking about trying to write and submit something, that's how it works, right?

For example, I think it would be really fun if we, the players, could RP out developing the resins and crossbow technology ourselves! Could an Admin or Divine or someone please get back to me on if that would be... not stupid?

Areka

The racial riots in Enorian last time proved that the city (its NPCs and Adventurer Characters) is corrupt, selfish, petty, self-destructive and bigoted, and doesn't have a solid grasp on what Light is and manipulates that for convenience rather than cause. The NPCs mirror what the players do - purging of areas we say are OK, whether or not someone is an adventurer for if they are a lesser being or otherwise, focusing on the state of flesh rather than the actions maintained, and so on. The Enorianite Self-Righteousness is again being mirrored with Jia's zealotry, which mirrors how the other characters act and work. Now, many don't want to actually acknowledge their involvement in creating this mentality,  and yes, the NPCs take things a step too far, but there are trends there that get overlooked of simply finger-pointed as being someone else's issue rather than a communal issue that everyone has a part in. It's a huge, albeit grim, learning opportunity that Enorian never seems to grasp or utilize or learn from in any of its events that go like this, and lose-lose situations that could and should be utilized to improve the quality of the city, its internal politics, and mission. 

Rivas

...yeah, but it's not fun. It's a game that's not fun. How does that make sense?


Someone else's idea of a "poignant life lesson" can be well-delivered into the storyline of current events if it's, well...well-delivered. Having NPCs randomly yell and kill each other and blame us for acting or not acting, no matter what actions or inactions we take? That's hamfisted and very...wait for it...

...not fun.

This may be a very unfair generalization, and I apologize if I'm way off-base, but it APPEARS that this event is someone just kinda stirring the pot for the sake of stirring it, regardless of whether or not this is something that will 1) positively enhance the affected players' gaming experience, and/or 2) have a potential positive "win scenario" outcome for the players. Both of those, in this jaded player's humble opinion, should be NECESSARY in every event, whether or not options 1 or 2 actually end up occurring.


Events don't HAVE to always let the players win and they don't HAVE to leave everyone feeling bubbly and giggling and full of chocolatey Willy Wonka goodness at the end of them. But they do HAVE to at least give the players a -chance- to win, and let there be the possibility of having them walk away from it going "yeah that was good stuff". If those two things don't exist (and right now it really doesn't seem like they do) in an event, we just feel like ants in some kid's antfarm, there to be tossed about whenever they get bored enough to shake it.

Areka

I don't know. The last event got cut short, and a lot of possibilities we had at resolution and moving forward got side-tracked due to everyone being more intent at bickering and being unicorns to each other than trying to work together (working on employment opportunities, city funds, dealing with the docks, dealing with city businesses and bringing them into the current age, projects to get npcs and players and the various factions working together because it wasn't the exact fountain idea the culture minister wanted - there's a lot of things that just haven't been followed through on or explored that could be). I think there's more potential here than is being seen due to how the city historically and currently works together. It gets really nasty so the 'win scenarios' get lost in the petty politics and 'my way or the highway' attitude which is the *very thing being combated*. 

Calipso

Events news just needs more maintenance is all im saying. Wasnt Aetolia famous for almost never posting events and so a group of players felt the need to record them themselves?

Is like I said, I and im sure many others would be more than happy to contribute some free time here.

Lin

Calipso said:

Events news just needs more maintenance is all im saying. Wasnt Aetolia famous for almost never posting events and so a group of players felt the need to record them themselves?

Umm, no?

Calipso

Lin said:

Calipso said:

Events news just needs more maintenance is all im saying. Wasnt Aetolia famous for almost never posting events and so a group of players felt the need to record them themselves?

Umm, no?

Im sure I was shown the site once. Let me see if I can get it again.

Iosyne

Angwe said:

Macavity said:

it seems the Light get more Events than the Dark side anyways..

Duiran gets one every couple of RL months.

I have never seen a Sentinel event. Ever. I've been thinking about trying to write and submit something, that's how it works, right?

For example, I think it would be really fun if we, the players, could RP out developing the resins and crossbow technology ourselves! Could an Admin or Divine or someone please get back to me on if that would be... not stupid?

Not to cause a major derail, but I wanted to address this with the feedback I've gained from my own experiences. Guild events tend to happen less often due to the varying populations between the guilds, and their smaller population overall when compared to cities. If a guild has three members online during most hours of the day, two of which might be mostly idle, it's very difficult to come at them with an event. On the other hand, say the Shamans have a typical population of eight members online during most hours of the day, so they would be an appealing target audience... but then you run the risk of population bias. Do the Shamans need an event, if their activity is already booming? Is it fair to give popular orgs more events? It's a tough call to make, especially when we have sixteen (soon to be twelve) guilds. 

City events tend to be more successful because no one feels excluded, and the guilds have the option of forming their own opinions and coming up with responses to these events based on their own creeds. There is a lot more room for debate and conflict, as opposed to a mostly-private event tailored to a group of like-minded individuals (isn't that what a guild is, in a nutshell?). 

Guild events tend to do a bit better with storylines that evolve over a length of time, giving members time to log on and be around for it in a way that isn't pressure-filled and constricted to a certain time period. These are the types of events that put most of the control (and initiative) in the hands of the players, with minimal Admin assistance. Of course, you don't need anyone's endorsement to start these events on your own - and I would highly encourage it (just check with your patron if you come up with something that might be questionable). When players, especially ones that don't typically get to enjoy the spotlight like orgheads tend to do, feel that they have real influence and a role, you'll find their personal investment rise exponentially compared to an event where they just sit back and watch throughout most of it. 

Calipso said:

Events news just needs more maintenance is all im saying. Wasnt Aetolia famous for almost never posting events and so a group of players felt the need to record them themselves?

Is like I said, I and im sure many others would be more than happy to contribute some free time here.

I agree with your first statement, though I don't think the solution is opening it up to player submissions. Increasing the frequency of events posts was a topic that was brought up not very long ago, and if you take a look through the last twenty or so events posts, you do see an increasing frequency in them. Events post #119 is two years old at this point, with only five posts throughout the entirety of the following year. Since then, there have been nearly three times as many posts in an equivalent timespan (#124-#138 = 14 events posts in the past year). I would definitely call that a major improvement. 

Corlin

The thing I'll say about the recent racism event in Enorian is that everyone IS on the same side, really - they all think it's terrible and want it stopped.

Not a single person has mentioned icly or oocly to me that they'd like to pursue it, but plenty have told me flatly that they don't want to be asked icly to participate because they don't want to deal with it oocly.

As for internal conflict in the city? I'm not super up on the current city politics, but everything I do end up seeing from an outside point of view leads me to believe that there's a lot of people on the same page, working for the same things. It's not everyone, but it never will be. I see a lot of cohesion in the government, at least.