Haven costs and mechanics

CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
edited June 2013 in Harpy's Head Tavern
Hello, this thread will be used to share my thoughts upon issues I've found with Haven costs and the mechanic of utilizing one. If any players have any thoughts or ideas or even agree on the manner, than feel free to post below. Mainly I am writing this in an attempt to bring admin attention to the outdated and overly costly mechanics of Havens in hopes they may be rectified.

COSTS:

Currently Havens are overly costly if one simply wishes to design their special little bubble to their tastes.

- Building a room costs 1 Haven point, equal to 25% of leveling or 200,000 gold, then 400k  per point for the next five, then 600k for the next five and so on.

- A Haven  room name costs 5,000 gold.

- A Haven room description costs 10,000 gold.

- Building an exit to another room costs 10,000 gold.

- Changing the environment of a room in your haven (such as to forest, ocean, etc.) costs 100,000 gold.

...and so forth.

To put it plainly, the prices are murder. If someone wished to only have a 3 room haven, it would cost them: 675,000 gold. This is -without- any features or add-on, meaning doors, locks, enchantment/milking rooms, hidden rooms, environment change etc. So it costs over half a million just to have a small plain place to yourself.


These prices are just unreasonable and too high for anyone, unless they are a goldsink (@Alexina >>), to partake in the experience of customizing their own little location to themselves. The price of building a new room may be understandable, but to simple give it a name costs 5000 gold? To describe it, another 10,000 gold? It is perhaps for this reason we rarely see anyone push their haven beyond the point of 1 or 2 rooms, usually with keeping the default name of "Within the unformed" even.

Let's look at this from another view: Hunting. When Hunting the end level areas, in an hour one can be making around 10,000-12,000 gold (not 100% sure on this). So for every 1:30 hour of constant hunting, and spending no expenses upon anything else, someone can fully describe their first haven room. But what if they want more? If someone wished to add a new room to their haven, that is a full 16 hours of hunting non-stop (Not considering haven points) just to get a new room. So to summarize so far, someone will need to hunt roughly all day long, use no expenses upon anything else (curatives, credits, etc.) and then can add 1 room...this seems very taxing and generally people will use their expenses upon much more dire needs.

Let's consider it from credits! Purchasing a new room, that is around 55c. Add in total of name and describing, that makes around 58c. Doors, exits and locks, 61c. Now let's say that person wants to customize it more with an environment change 84c. Makes the room outdoors or indoors? 85c. So roughly 85 credits total in the end.

So someone is spending 85 credits just to customize a room in their self-make house. Please note that this is without special features like a  stable or milking room and such. Those will be listed below.


LIST OF EXPENSES:

Here is a list of expenses with each form of collecting placed near it. (I took credits to be of 3.8k gold per).

Name:          Haven point:        Gold:       Hunting:    Credits:

New Room                 1                        200,000         16h                    52
Link Rooms                 -                         10,000          1:30h                  3
Hide Exit                      -                         10,000          1:30h                  3
Inside/Outside             -                         10,000          1:30h                  3
Environment                -                       100,000          8h                      26
Name Room                -                           5,000          30-40mins        1.5
Describe Room           -                         10,000          1:30h                  3
Build Door                    -                           1,000          10mins               -
Add Lock                      -                           1,000          10mins               -
Make Key                     -                           1,000          10mins               -

Features:
Obscuring Fog            1                       200,000          16h                   52
Hidden Room              2                       400,000        1d8h                 108
Slaughter House         1                       200,000          16h                   52
Private                         2                       400,000        1d8h                   52
Stable                          1                       200,000          16h                   52
Willpower regen          3                       600,000            2d                 160
Endurance regen         3                      600,000            2d                 160
Health regen                3                       600,000            2d                 160
Mana regen                 3                        600,000            2d                 160
Solid Rock                    -                       500,000         1d9h                 111
Milking                          8                    1,600,000         5d3h                 416
Enchantment               8                    1,600,000         5d3h                 416
Library                          1                       200,000           16h                   52
Forge                           4                        800,000       2d16h                208



RELATION TO SIMILAR MECHANICS:

Though I know it doesnt like to be brought up, I have to bring up similar concepts in other IRE games. Take Lusternia for example, it has a very similar mechanic to Havens, called Manses. To rename a room in a manse, it costs 1000 gold. To describe it, it costs another 1000 gold. A new room costs 150,000 gold. Making an exit between rooms costs 100 gold. You can also set if others are able to visit your manse or not.

This frankly gives more freedom of expression to the players. I should even mention how gold drops are much more higher there, I wont go into detail with this though.


HAVEN FEATURES:

Much of the Haven features feel out of date and frankly useless. Why would someone want a Health or Mana regeneration room in their haven? It would be great if new features could be added to make Havens more unique, especially the ability for others to visit them. Frankly if the ability for others to be able to visit your havens was set, it would make all the rest of the features much more understandable and helpful.


HOUSES AND THEIR COSTS:

As a note I wish to discuss the concept of the Housing system. Frankly it is absurd to think that players must pay prices that high just in order to have a House. It really is no wonder the playerbase has turned to their Havens to make that their 'homes'. In every other IRE i've had the privileged to play, Houses were -never- a "credits-only" option. Frankly anyone could buy a House.

Some of the prices: (these are divided based on city/npc village/wilderness)

First room/Base package: 250/375/500 credits
Extra rooms: 50/75/100 credits each.
Enchanting Room: 500/750/1000 credits
Environment with Effects: 104/156/208 credits
Graveyard: 150/225/300 credits

and so on and so forth. This doesnt seem like a house at all, if anything it seems like a very big artifact. I know that the Castle/Housing system is out of date, but I am not sure if it was the Admin's intention to make Havens the new housing system (basically since you require level 100, I dont think so). However if this is the only in-place true Housing system, then frankly it is just unfair prices.

As for buildings in cities and renting, I dont consider that housing. It is frankly more for show and doesnt really give  privs and powers to the player to customize as they wish, not to mention isnt really private.



My request is simply that the cost of customizing be reduced in either/or Havens or Castles, at the last describing and naming. It feels like im giving an arm or a leg just to make a new room in a haven. Also if something could be done to make the current features more of use. I hope you enjoyed this little report.


Edit: Added in the Housing/Castle system.
Post edited by Calipso on

Comments

  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only part of this post that I agree with is not seeing a point in having health or mana regen inside of your haven, unless for some god forsaken reason you decided to have a fight in there. The rest of it is just pretty lozly. 

    You're making the assumption that everyone intended on spending 200k gold just for one . The only reason that was likely implemented in the first place was to create a goldsink for people who were too lazy to bash. With hunting areas that generate insanely high amounts of exp, the several dirt cheap chalices that are floating around, grimstim pills, chocolates, etc it takes next to nothing to bash for experience these days. Hell, that Ezreal guy jumped from level 99 to 102 between yesterday and today. I've gained 37% exp within the last 2 weeks just from PK alone, and that doesn't include the times I've died between that. 

    In this day and age, it's MUCH cheaper to bash for haven points rather than spend gold on them. You should probably rethink that. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    LinEsper
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's purposely expensive/murder because Havens weren't meant to replace Houses. But the playerbase has proven they're willing to go above and beyond to make their Havens elaborate and ignore the Housing feature because a little elbow grease > paying up credits.

    Not to say I agree with the prices or anything (I personally wish Havens were deleted or nerfed significantly) but that's the reason as far as I understand it.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The costs are on par with standard house costs. I wouldn't mind those being lowered though - I think room redesigns should be encouraged for temporary RP changes, as it's an awesome option to have. 
    Ciarelle
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    Haven said:
    It's purposely expensive/murder because Havens weren't meant to replace Houses. But the playerbase has proven they're willing to go above and beyond to make their Havens elaborate and ignore the Housing feature because a little elbow grease > paying up credits.

    Not to say I agree with the prices or anything (I personally wish Havens were deleted or nerfed significantly) but that's the reason as far as I understand it.
    oh dont get me started on Houses. It seems crazy that you can only purchase a House in Aetolia with credits. Rooms cost  credits, entrance/exits cost credits, more and more. The prices are relatively insane (see HELP HOUSING for those unfamiliar). I really cant blame the player base for choosing to make their Havens their homes.

    Actually I think I will mention this in the report.
  • AlistaireAlistaire Las Vegas, NevadaMember Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    I love my haven so much that I have two of them that are both like five rooms, with hidden things and other addons. That said, both of my characters also own or co-own a house in the prime plane. The cost/difficulty/ect for a haven is fine by me. I'd really rather more people bought normal houses, they're much more fun and easier to have group RP in.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moirean said:
    The costs are on par with standard house costs. I wouldn't mind those being lowered though - I think room redesigns should be encouraged for temporary RP changes, as it's an awesome option to have. 
    This, definitely. We're already not getting the benefit of houses due to having to pay to describe a new haven room from the get go. The 10k per room link is painful as well, and I would be *more* likely to rearrange things and invest in it and adapt it to roleplay if it were more reasonable. 
    image
  • SaybreSaybre Member Posts: 300 ✭✭✭

    Used Points: 92  Remaining Points: 22

    I have no problem with the current haven point costs. Ahem. I would like more options for me to spend my points on though!
    image
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Used Points: 118  Remaining Points: 27

    @saybre: AMEN

    image

    image


    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • RouxRoux Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    I would like the cost of room type (aka 100k gold) to have a haven point equivalent, but otherwise, I don't see a real problem with the current costs.
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I stopped bashing at level 120 because I didn't have crap else to spend haven points on. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie BraavosMember Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Used Points: 124  Remaining Points: 1


    Why do I only have one free point?  Because I'm adding health/mana/endurance/willpower regen to every room. And everything else I can get my paws on.
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    hmm question, were those points you gathered only and primarily by hunting, or did you use any gold conversion to points in it?

    If it is the former, then I can understand the high amount gathered, but not all of us love the idea of constantly hunting. Frankly hunting bores the life out of me, and I at times wonder how others can stay at it for so long.
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie BraavosMember Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't buy haven points.  I bash way too much.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's why there's alternatives. 

    Used Points: 82  Remaining Points: 23

    You can buy if you don't want to hunt, occasionally you can buy with OOC money - but it SHOULD be an investment. The upgrades could do with increased prices. 

    I just wish that the describing/arrangement wasn't so expensive. grumpgrumpgrump. 
    image
    Calipso
  • SaybreSaybre Member Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    I have never bought any with gold, it's all from bashing. The whole point is it's an additional flavor thing added to the game for people who -do- like to bash, they only added the goldsink part for people who want some of it without the work. The system isn't made out of obligation, it's just a handy perk for endgamers who worked so hard to get there.
    image
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Again, just lower the redescribe/rename cost for havens and houses to allow for fluid RP.

    Also let other people visit our havens. Ylem research power to unlock. Haven docking or whatever. Sibatti made a report on it once upon a time.
    Calipso
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    Moirean said:
    Again, just lower the redescribe/rename cost for havens and houses to allow for fluid RP.

    Also let other people visit our havens. Ylem research power to unlock. Haven docking or whatever. Sibatti made a report on it once upon a time.
    This please yes. I find redescribing and renaming far too costly. I think most of everyone hasnt given their rooms long descriptions out of the pain of doing so.

    I think a Havens command of Privs could be added. then simply one would do TRAVEL TO <person> HAVEN. Perhaps it should be made that one may only travel to the haven of others (or their own) if they are within the Havens. Would generally make it more reasonable.


    In the end, we must ask ourselves: What is a Haven? It is sort of like our own divine creche (imo). Our characters ascended their mortal frames and became something more, albeit not Gods, but "higher beings" could be a good name for it. These "higher beings" have the ability to create a pocket of reality in existence which bends to their will, defining them. I think it really only reasonable if not natural that we have a much easier access to describing and naming, and perhaps the ability to more customize our Havens.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2013
    I'd love to be able to use haven ponts for -anything-. Anyway, the gold cost for haven points is way, way excessive. If it's supposed to be a goldsink, it should be decreased to the point where people actually think it'd be worthwhile (something like 50-75,000 gold, at the most). As of right now, I don't think anyone is ever buying haven points. At the very least, being able to transfer points to other people (even at a gold fee) would make haven points seem a whole lot more useful.

    Aetolia's housing system is infinitely better than Achaea's, for example (I really dislike subdivisions, and you still have to pay credits to get rooms, etc). A house is cheaper than a pet, in most cases, and there's plenty of people running around with pets. I am not really sure what you're basing your assessment that housing prices are absurd; if 250-500 credits for a very neat feature is absurd then pretty much all skillsets/pets/artifacts/crafts are absurd, too.

    I agree that the gold cost for changing room names/descriptions and linking rooms together is excessive. If you pay for a room with credits, then all these things should be included. Also, the environment effect for houses is the most useless thing ever. Just add it when people change their room's environment in the first place (this wouldn't suddenly create huge combat imbalances or anything). There are a few other things that seem pretty out of date: health regen, enchanting rooms, forges, etcetera are all useless in houses because they are practically free with haven points.

    House mobs are amazing.

    Edited for spelling.
    image
    Calipso
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Houses should get some stuff slashed across the board. Features like forges, ovens, echoes, room features, etc in houses could stand to be a bit cheaper, and it would be nice to see more options added to them, especially as they do have to compete with havens. I think if houses were made a bit cheaper and more unique in what they offer, we'd see more purchases overall of them, especially if costs went down for moving them/building them in non-city areas. People love the idea of showing off their own special areas, but it's absolutely absurdly expensive if you try to put that in a spot everyone can get to (like a village or wilderness), so you're stuck having to keep the door locked because of city security, and you can't easily showoff your estate or make it something others can enjoy (and make them want their own, as well!).

    Both havens and houses make showing off and sharing a bit difficult to do, with havens being only you unless you lead people in and houses being confined to neighborhoods (instead of the city proper) these days (you can't even break in or burrow around!). I think the new entrance option that got added to houses is a great step to letting players share their private creations with the public, without compromising city security, and maybe we could see something similar with havens.

    HOWEVER, I think havens were NOT designed to be a cheap replacement for houses, and with how easy xp is to get, they really have become that. Lowering housing costs or adding more unique things for houses (house mobs are a great addition in this vein) or making it easier to share public areas of your house would really help emphasize that houses are the superior option. I think houses could be a better credit revenue if they were made more attractive and cheaper - people will buy more things to upgrade them, which would lead to more overall credit investment. Atm, havens are basically just the go-to thing, and I don't think they need to be made cheaper or easier to modify. I'm guessing that is why they won't let us link them or make them accessible. But, if rather than limiting them, they just made houses cooler? Tada, everyone wins.
    CalipsoAngwe
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was an auction artifact that allowed you to link your Haven with someone else.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie BraavosMember Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wanted it so badly.  I have a bunch of paired artifacts just because of havens.  I would pay gross amounts of gold to be able to link havens.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: @Moirean
    As far as I understand, you can place house mobs in havens as well. I've certainly seen mobs in havens.
    image
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    So far showing off your Havens equals to someone sensing your location and seeing the name of your custom room. :P.

    I do wish there was a better way to emphasis what Moirean had posted.
  • CorlinCorlin Member Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Havens are flavor. Meant to make life a bit easier for those who bother to get the points to get a forge or an end regen room or whatever.

    I fully agree that the room description costs can be annoying - I've had a typo in one room that I'll probably never fix, because ten thousand gold for three characters is never going to make sense.

    But if I never see another alteration to haven mechanics, I will not be surprised.
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