Events Coordinators!

Benedicto

So we've got mortal builders and the liaisons. Each of these are responsible for the development of our beloved game in their specific areas. So, with that in mind I thought why not the creation of a new role that people could fill on an ad-hoc basis, just like a liaison or a builder, but, with the responsibility of creating events.

"But!" I hear you cry. "People would do stuff to benefit themselves/metagame/favoritism!"

Not the way that I have in mind. Basically the entire thing would run on the same principle as the liaisons. Any event that an "Ev-co" has in mind would have to be submitted like a liaison report. It would then be open to further input and critique from the other Ev-co's and the Divine. It would then be furthered and the event staff would work on it or it would be voted down.

Obviously any candidates would have to have a record clean of metagaming or whatever. And the position would require monitoring to be sure that people adhered to secrecy/no-favoritism rules.

I thought I'd put this up for general discussion because I think it would take some of the burden from an already overburdened pools staff, and, also increase the output of events and RP for the players as a whole. I know several people, including myself, who would jump at the chance to do something like this. It doesn't require the sacrifice that becoming a Celani entails and gives our wonderfully creative Aetolian populace a further output for their desires.

Anyway. Discuss!

Konnorn

I really like this idea. The more World-changing events could be left to the Pools, but there is so many things on a smaller scale that could be done to make things more interesting.

Moirean

I think this would be a great idea - there's oversight to ensure things are handled fairly and not abused, which is the big concern with letting mortals keep playing their toons while handling events.

We really could benefit from something like this, I think!

Macavity

to keep from metagaming or doing events to benefit the person themselves, you could do something where there is an even number of people chosen from each side, Dark/Light, and then the Dark would work on the Light stuff only and the Light would work on the Dark stuff only, that way keeping them completely out of it.  In the event that it would be a Both side event then one from each side would work on it to insure that neither would benefit from it.

I do like this idea!

Teani

At least as a means for Admin to pick up on what people would like to work on, if nothing else. I'm not sure about your idea though, @Macavity, as people from the opposite side might have difficulties knowing where the other side is going or what they are aiming for.

Kaleigh

This sounds like a pretty good idea.

Keeping an open mind with how each event should take place, and having different opinions would really make things interesting.

Yusri

Given how rarely the Pools seem to be populated enough to handle oversight on their own events, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Benedicto

Just to get a bit of additional input beyond the people in support of the idea, it'd be good to hear some of the objections. @Rivas and @Atrapoema, what do you think is a problem with this idea?

Rivas

I like the -principle- of the idea (I was gonna write up something similar in a message to @Razmael before you posted this), but I'm -really- not fond of the whole "it can be JUST like Liaisons" aspect. Have you SEEN some of the terribad reports put in by our liaisons? And the stuff that gets through BECAUSE of those terribad reports? The fewer players that have their hands in the creation of events, the better. Events should be left primarily up to the Divine/Admin to create, with a few select, choice players having the -privilege- of offering ideas or input, and letting the Admin work off of those ideas.

If something like this were to feasibly work, I'd say it should be closer to how Guides and Builders are handled. There shouldn't be any public knowledge of who these "Ev-Co" people are, it should be as secretive as who the Guides and Builders are (if not MORE, cause really...some people in those roles aren't great at keeping secrets anyways). They should only collaborate with, and report to, the Divine, and they're the only mortals who should see the progress of the events that they're writing.

I mean...it could either be in an event-writing role (which gets handed off to the Divine, who then runs it...which isn't ALWAYS ideal for the event-runner), or a more expansive role with MAYBE some kind of shell for the Ev-Co to step up into for the actual event-running itself (to help with mob-possession, room emotes, etc).


All in all, it'd have to be HEAVILY watched and micromanaged, at least for the first few batches of small events until things get in full swing. I like the basic idea you threw out there, Oh Benny Boy, just not quite fond of how much player participation is being suggested.


Players are kinda dumb.

Benedicto

That's fine @rivas. I didn't create this thread with intention of saying "this is the way it should be done." It was more of an off the cuff outline that had a final goal in mind. What I really wanted was to get the ball rolling for discussion to be had on its attainment.

Reading through your suggestion I think your thoughts would probably be a much better way to go about it. But I would think some sort of manner in which players could suggest an event even if it's an addition to the IDEAS list that can only be seen by admin. I always feel cheeky messaging Divine requesting things. Particularly if it's something smallish you want to do with your Order or Guild. This is made doubly awkward when your Patron/Matron isn't active or unplayed and you have to ask another Divine. 

Also my opinion is that it would make more sense for the Evco in question to have the ability to run their own event through use of a "shell" as you put it. That way it achieves the purpose of taking the workload away from already burdened admin and to make sure it's done to the Evco's original specifications.

I'd like to know what other people think.

Atrapoema

I just don't think players should be involved in something like this, but that's just me. If you really want to "ease the burden" of the volunteers, then convince Razmael to take more Celani in a given round and step up to bat.

I do realize this was meant as a way around losing your character, but there are things that honestly should only ever be handled by the volunteers. This is one of them. You'd only be increasing their workload by making them oversee potentially stupid players.

Moirean

I disagree with the idea of pushing things back towards the divine (also with Rivas' frankly rather rude dismissal of players like liaisons) - players are also volunteers, but they have investment in what happens in a way that IRE (in all of its games) clearly struggles to find for its admin. The attrition rate for admin volunteers is very high, and the current setup has high turnover. I don't really blame them; us players are an obnoxious, demanding bunch... but that doesn't mean that players can't be harnessed to help make things happen. I think there is a deeper issue of finding a way to make playing a divine more compelling and less tiring and somehow engaging admin at a similar level of investment that players have.

However, until that gets tackled, there's gonna be periods of low activity where events don't happen very often. Finding a process to direct and guide players into handling them on a small scale would be really beneficial to the game and overall activity.

Haven

Well. What's really required for small scale events?

The controlling of NPCs? I think we, as players, have a bit of leeway with this because Aetolia is inhabited by a plethora of denizens that aren't actually hard-coded NPCs. Think of the times you've god-moded the barkeep. Think of all the descriptions that describe a scene with people running about, particularly the cities, etc. I wouldn't bat an eye if players respectfully started adding minor NPC personalities in their arcs and emotes to goad other players into role-play player driven events. The line gets drawn though when you're gunning for arcs that'll conceivably alter major themes or invoke a wide spread or rippling change/effect like war, conversion, hostile acts, etc. Then I'd say bring in the Divine.

[spoiler]

For example, say @Emelle was idling at Four Corners:

With his hands linked lazily together and cradling his head, Haven leans back against his chair as he monitors the crowd from the rooftops of Enorian's Four Corners. From the merchant pushing along his wagon through the cobblestone streets to the children running wildly between the crowds playing at some strange game foreign to the former Knight, the Azudim looks oddly at peace as he allows a bit of tenderness into his expression. It's almost as if the man were fond of the place! Almost. What catches his attention the most, however, is Emelle standing still a midst the bustling chaos of the market.

Emelle seems to be entirely oblivious to the storm of people around her as she idly flips through yet another page in her book. With the corners of her eyes wrinkling as she works her mouth into a gnarled ball of concentration, the Yeleni might look as if she were deeply pained to any onlookers. It isn't until one of the playing children reaches out to her and tugs on the sleeve of her kimono that her focus is broken and she's back into reality. Eyes as full and vibrant as the matching royal purple fabric adorned across her partially equine frame stare down at the awkward mess before her. "Mm?"

Haven breaks the link between his fingers as he suddenly sits forward in his seat, captivated by the scene down below. It's hardly a response at all, the sound poised as a question leaving Emelle's lips but the freckled faced tyke of a boy seemed to understand all the same. "How'd ya get those legs miss? Does it hurt to walk like that? Who makes your clothes!" The human boy asks with a strange kind of wonder as he blatantly appraises Emelle's frame.

Narrowing her eyes, Emelle says to the freckled boy, "By asking busy strangers too many questions!" The Yeleni closes her book with a snap and draws it momentarily to her chest in a shielding manner before waving the boy away in a shooing motion... 

-------------------------------

Or maybe you want to do a guild event thingy:

Black as any moonless night. Sharp as any blade. A single clawed finger buries itself against a full beard of white! "Hot damn. Imma itchy!" Barda bellows before taking his halberd up off the ground. "A good bloodbath outta cure that right up. Right boss?" The scraggly imp barely allows Moirean a chance to respond before returning his attention to the new recruits as he yanks down on a lever.

"Tch." Is Moirean's only response as she keeps his expression as tight as can be. This was Barda's show after all. An ominous rattling fills the courtyard as the portcullis marking the eastern stone archway begins its ascent. Before long a marching file of shackled and frail mhuns are ushered out from the darkness by a large burly Serah Knight accompanied by two warhounds who seem to relish with foaming moaths in snapping at the heels of the more skittish captives.

Grinning ear to ear, Barda exclaims, "Ah. Just in time. The material for the Vigil of Undoing have arrived. Cohorts, gather your polearms!"

[/spoiler]

-------------------------------

The possibilities are nearly endless without the -need- for divine. The lore is there in our skills and libraries and room descriptions and quests, etc. The need for Divine becomes even smaller especially since the crafting community has a lot of freedom in creating items that could be incorporated in player-driven events. If you're just wanting to make the lore cannon? Even then I'd say that is in the hands of the player and the amount of people you decide to share the experience with ICly. The only thing, as far as events are concerned, that we -need- Divine intervention for in my opinion are super special mechanics (those should be rare anyway) or large scaled events or maybe even small ones that might require the unwilling participation of another organization.

The primary obstacle I've faced though in player-driven events is gathering participation from people outside of your own normal circle. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to start something on CT or something and get ignored by like 95% of their citymates.

Alexina

What a showoff!

Benedicto

I agree up to a point but that sort of thing isn't an event, it's a personal RP session between two people. It becomes a lot more difficult to do with growing numbers. You then end up woth say 3 or 4 people coming up with their own idea on what said mob is supposed to be doing.

Then you have problems with the mobs themselves. Say I wanted to RP something with Kamakshi in Vilimo. You open your mouth to say anything and he boots you from his room. You then decide I'll do something with Maeron who has a small area that she wanders and will just walk out of room whilst you're trying to RP. Add onto this that not every player has an understanding of Aetolian lore or previous events and might do something that goes completely against that mobs history or behaviour up until that point.

Evco's would be there to make sure that the event is accurate to Aetolian lore, is concise and in keeping with the mobs behaviour.

Teani

Not knowing the game Lore actually just lends more weight to events being up to the Admin. Also, manipulating something like turning off an NPC's flags to wander, means the player is given access to altering the mob completely, if I understand things correctly. As @Rivas said, probably better to make it similar to mortal builders, or to leave it to Admin.

To go off what @Haven said and respond to @Benedicto:

Sure some mobs are difficult to interact with as ordinary players, but that's part of who they are, their characteristics. Kamakshi won't speak to living people, so you get tossed out. Go through the other people in Vilimo, like Laghoire guarding the entrance, and try finding a way to weasel yourself in, send a message to the mob and hope someone in Pools pick it up. Might happen, might not. At least you get some RP out of trying to reach the bastard who keeps tossing you out.

As for interacting with wandering mobs, like Maeron, who is a very busy person after all, it shouldn't be too difficult either in simple emotes. When she strides off before your emote is done, add it as being rudely interrupted, or Maeron taking offense at something you said or did and walks off or something. If you've just sent an emote where the NPC is saying something, and they wander off, just add another where they hear something and hurry off calling an apology over their shoulder.

I spent more than 10 minutes herding trees at NoT after a focus had disrupted the area markers and let the Morgun bushes wander onto the highway. It was hilarious and my character got to try and act all forestal after moving to Duiran. She failed miserably and killed a bush for disobeying a direct order.

Minarael

Okay, so, Imperian has something like this,  which has mostly been MIA due to a lack of volunteer activity combined with missing Divine oversight. However, they did address a lot of the issues brought up here in their version of this program.

Mobs have a sort of RP log, that volunteers animating them can check for consistency. It only shows one side of the convo, (the mobs says, and I -think- emotes) but it helps with consistency in speech mannerisms and attitude. Honestly, with the turnover rate in the Divine in pretty much all the IRE games I've played, consistency of mob animation is not a problem limited to player volunteers.

When animating a mob, it isn't too difficult to switch off its wandering flag. Mob sits still till volunteer is done abusing it. 

The primary purpose of the Imperian version of this program is to encourage 'livening up' the world with small mob-to-player interactions and small scale events. They occasionally provided support for larger scale, admin-run events, and could pitch larger events. Larger events had divine oversight and support. 

As for metagaming and all that, any player in any volunteer position has the capacity to abuse it. There is a reason for the application process. Most players are decent people. Some aren't. Most get filtered out by the application process. The worst that can happen with someone abusing a volunteer spot like this is a minor irritation followed by them being removed from the position and punished for their stupid behavior.

I have seen a very similar program done in a few few text-based games, always with varying degrees of positive influence on the game in question. How much awesome they offered seems to be entirely based on how active the volunteers were.

Overall, I really dig this idea in any game. Players are a lot more aware of the general feel of small-scale RP situations and personalities than admin types usually are and their involvement in bringing the game to life is a good thing with very minimal risk. 

Moirean

What's the worst that could happen with a rogue volunteer? Ashtan hires some Nazetu pirates and Severn's brought in to retcon it? It's not like Ashtan suffered long term for -

Ohhhhh.

Moirean

Also, to address Haven's post about players pushing RP and events themselves - sure, we can, or at least try. But sometimes that's tiring to do a lot as an org leader. It's really going above and beyond the scope of what the job is, and when people start expecting THAT as your new baseline, it makes the job tiring and daunting and leads to burnout in player leadership roles. Events and large-scale story stuff really is admin territory - or volunteers, with Bene's idea.

Haven

Moirean said:

Also, to address Haven's post about players pushing RP and events themselves - sure, we can, or at least try. But sometimes that's tiring to do a lot as an org leader. It's really going above and beyond the scope of what the job is, and when people start expecting THAT as your new baseline, it makes the job tiring and daunting and leads to burnout in player leadership roles. Events and large-scale story stuff really is admin territory - or volunteers, with Bene's idea.

Well. I wasn't trying to say GMs or whatever had to run events. I was just saying it's a possibility. Just like Secretaries could run something or a group of people can decide together what they want to do between organizations.

My point is that we, as players, already have a lot of power to do what we want to do without the need of Admin assistance.

Minarael

Moirean said:

What's the worst that could happen with a rogue volunteer? Ashtan hires some Nazetu pirates and Severn's brought in to retcon it? It's not like Ashtan suffered long term for -

Ohhhhh.

I assume this is a thing that actually happened. I assume you did not have this sort of program going at the time so it was a rogue soon-to-be God. They are usually given slightly more leeway to maneuver than a player volunteer. That's a bit beyond the usual scope of that sort of position, which usually comes with a basic warning of 'make no big changes without admin approval'. That'd be grounds for losing what is a pretty fun job, which is usually a pretty decent deterrent.

I've never been a fan of the idea that you shouldn't do something on the basis that one jerk might screw it up. With that line of thinking, let's not have city treasurers, or really org leaders of any kind. They have the capacity to trash years of hard work pretty quickly and no amount of punishment after the fact can really -fix- what gets lost. It's not terribly hard to minimize risk, and a weird unfortunate bit of RP in the grand scheme of things isn't a terrible mess to clean up. 

Moirean

It was mostly a joke. Through a series of unfortunate miscommunications, what was intended as a small reskin of Ashtan's guards turned into Ashtan embracing living necromancers and having child NPCs kidnapped by Severn. 

The destruction came later at the hands of the Dreikkathi, which is where the joke is. It totally wasn't because of those events. It was just cuz Ashtan sucked. Which, to be fair, was probably why the Nazetu pirates were let to escalate so much anyways - any change was a good change, after a point. >_>

In that circumstance, the culprit was a Celani doing more than they had approval to. My point is that the admin volunteer system makes mistakes, too. TBH, even events that go wonky generate activity and buzz (not that I'd advocate holding wonky events over good ones).

Minarael

Yea, I realized it was meant in a joking fashion a bit later. I should learn to not respond to things until I've been properly caffeinated. 

Admin volunteers definitely make mistakes, and sometimes even innocent ones blow up into great big ones. In this case, I think (as you said) the risk of weird RP is certainly outweighed by the potential benefits. 

It's delightful when the game comes alive around you. 

Angwe

Haven said:

Well. What's really required for small scale events?

The controlling of NPCs? I think we, as players, have a bit of leeway with this because Aetolia is inhabited by a plethora of denizens that aren't actually hard-coded NPCs. Think of the times you've god-moded the barkeep. Think of all the descriptions that describe a scene with people running about, particularly the cities, etc. I wouldn't bat an eye if players respectfully started adding minor NPC personalities in their arcs and emotes to goad other players into role-play player driven events. The line gets drawn though when you're gunning for arcs that'll conceivably alter major themes or invoke a wide spread or rippling change/effect like war, conversion, hostile acts, etc. Then I'd say bring in the Divine.

[spoiler]

For example, say @Emelle was idling at Four Corners:

With his hands linked lazily together and cradling his head, Haven leans back against his chair as he monitors the crowd from the rooftops of Enorian's Four Corners. From the merchant pushing along his wagon through the cobblestone streets to the children running wildly between the crowds playing at some strange game foreign to the former Knight, the Azudim looks oddly at peace as he allows a bit of tenderness into his expression. It's almost as if the man were fond of the place! Almost. What catches his attention the most, however, is Emelle standing still a midst the bustling chaos of the market.

Emelle seems to be entirely oblivious to the storm of people around her as she idly flips through yet another page in her book. With the corners of her eyes wrinkling as she works her mouth into a gnarled ball of concentration, the Yeleni might look as if she were deeply pained to any onlookers. It isn't until one of the playing children reaches out to her and tugs on the sleeve of her kimono that her focus is broken and she's back into reality. Eyes as full and vibrant as the matching royal purple fabric adorned across her partially equine frame stare down at the awkward mess before her. "Mm?"

Haven breaks the link between his fingers as he suddenly sits forward in his seat, captivated by the scene down below. It's hardly a response at all, the sound poised as a question leaving Emelle's lips but the freckled faced tyke of a boy seemed to understand all the same. "How'd ya get those legs miss? Does it hurt to walk like that? Who makes your clothes!" The human boy asks with a strange kind of wonder as he blatantly appraises Emelle's frame.

Narrowing her eyes, Emelle says to the freckled boy, "By asking busy strangers too many questions!" The Yeleni closes her book with a snap and draws it momentarily to her chest in a shielding manner before waving the boy away in a shooing motion... 

-------------------------------

Or maybe you want to do a guild event thingy:

Black as any moonless night. Sharp as any blade. A single clawed finger buries itself against a full beard of white! "Hot damn. Imma itchy!" Barda bellows before taking his halberd up off the ground. "A good bloodbath outta cure that right up. Right boss?" The scraggly imp barely allows Moirean a chance to respond before returning his attention to the new recruits as he yanks down on a lever.

"Tch." Is Moirean's only response as she keeps his expression as tight as can be. This was Barda's show after all. An ominous rattling fills the courtyard as the portcullis marking the eastern stone archway begins its ascent. Before long a marching file of shackled and frail mhuns are ushered out from the darkness by a large burly Serah Knight accompanied by two warhounds who seem to relish with foaming moaths in snapping at the heels of the more skittish captives.

Grinning ear to ear, Barda exclaims, "Ah. Just in time. The material for the Vigil of Undoing have arrived. Cohorts, gather your polearms!"

[/spoiler]

-------------------------------

The possibilities are nearly endless without the -need- for divine. The lore is there in our skills and libraries and room descriptions and quests, etc. The need for Divine becomes even smaller especially since the crafting community has a lot of freedom in creating items that could be incorporated in player-driven events. If you're just wanting to make the lore cannon? Even then I'd say that is in the hands of the player and the amount of people you decide to share the experience with ICly. The only thing, as far as events are concerned, that we -need- Divine intervention for in my opinion are super special mechanics (those should be rare anyway) or large scaled events or maybe even small ones that might require the unwilling participation of another organization.

The primary obstacle I've faced though in player-driven events is gathering participation from people outside of your own normal circle. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to start something on CT or something and get ignored by like 95% of their citymates.

So f*c#n' jelly. Don't talk to me. H8raid