Guild and city patrons

Alistaire

Daingean and I have been discussing this for a while. We're both of the opinion that an org's patron/matron should be chosen because of the God in question fits the RP of said organization. (which is why both of our guilds are Auresian, despite her inactivity)

This poses the small problem of said God going inactive and orgs suddenly not having reliable access to favours (which seriously effects our bashing and pvpers). I know a lot of orgs combat this by changing their Patron to an active God, but in certain cases that is...really crappy. Some guilds have a God that fits them so perfectly, they shouldn't ever even consider changing Patron. (Teradrim/Ivoln. Templar, Daru and Luminaries/Auresae. Sentinels, Shamans/Haern. I'd even go so far as to say Carnifex/Iosyne.)

This bring me to my actual point here. I'd like it if, somehow, orgs/orders of inactive Gods could petition said Divinity mechanically to bless them. Not being in an order with an active God, or being a member of a guild/city who's God goes inactive shouldn't make you weaker than other people because they're willing to switch orgs/patrons on a whim.

Input? Thoughts? No, bad Alistaire? Tell me what you think, guys.

Xavin

I think there are perfectly valid reason to change patron. Dhar could fit the sentinels, shaman and duiran, for example so long as their rp swung a certain way. But you need to keep in mind that the position of patron also is a mechanical one. You go to your patron for various ooc things and help with events. If you don't have an active patron, well, you're depriving your org that admin assistance.

Areka

Multiple gods are perfectly reasonable Patrons for orgs. A few have one that resonates the most - Daru and Auresae, Teradrim and Ivoln, Syssin and Severn - though there ARE feasible alternatives that address OTHER ASPECTS of that org's RP.

I would argue that Auresae is not the perfect fit for Templars, however - there it would be Damariel, though Auresae and Dhar DO address other aspects of what the guild is about. You need to keep in mind the org, not just what fits you. 

With Xavin on that. You can include it in org RP, shifting between Patrons, to focus on different attributes of the guild. Oh wait. 

Alistaire

I actually forgot about Damariel, I admit. He'd be a fine fit for the Templar, as well. Unfortunately, he's also inactive. Dhar is too focused on one tiny portion of the whole thing to fit. Slyphe and Omei don't fit. Haern could, maybe, with a lot of effort on the guild's part (and the loss of some weird things Haern lets Duiran do). 

The point being that some guilds don't really have that option. So what do they do? Suck it up? Break their RP and choose a Patron that really doesn't fit at all? That is awful and shouldn't be the solution.

Areka

Every guild has an option and alternatives. It doesn't break RP to seek someone new who could offer new insights or perspectives so that the guild can strengthen its ideals and develop them further. 

Alexina

If I had a leadership position, I would feel obligated to pick a Divine that could provide the most attention to the guild, and this purely on an in-character basis: having a Divine patron whose presence is more strongly felt in the realm will potentially make the guild as a whole thrive to a greater extent than having a Divine whom slumbers. To heck with matching ideals, I am pragmatic and I do not want my guild to suffer.

Corlin

I'd also note the personal patron rp that's lost by the mechanical advantages of having an active patron.

An example would be having followed Iosyne for a very long time icly, and now having her be an entirely different goddess. Your patron / order rp is destroyed, there's no way to salvage it - but where are you supposed to go? Omei is the closest god that fits a realm of someone inclined towards the arts - but she's also inactive. In this example, you're given no choice - so, forward is the only way you can go.

But if a certain Deity is very important to your organizational role play, doesn't it feel a bit hollow just to change them because they haven't got a player? The god/ess still exists. Any excuse or reason you give in character is going to be a necessity. That's not lame, to anyone?

It's possible to alter your personal and organizational role play to suit a different patron - but it's not always what's best for either one.

Leaving aside blessings for their blessing related perks, you also have no method of getting mechanical aid for the sake of role play that should, for sometimes obvious reasons, involve your patron. What about the less direct downsides to having an inactive patron?

There's a lot of flavor that comes from patron interaction - and it's generally the primary motivator for patron shifts, and I'm not sure that's ever sat well with me. If my guild is really suited to a god, but we decide we want a new ritual for our novice exam, we've got to go to a god who has - possibly - nothing to do with our guild? Or handle it entirely out of character?

I know many gods will help out without being made patron, so it's not the best example, but the point is still valid - if your god is inactive, the role play of being devoted to that god is nearly nullified. I know that the phrase 'mechanics > rp' has been sort of a mainstay, but I'm given to wonder if it's got to be that way.

Kerryn

My concern is, that if everyone picks the 'active' god, then we overwhelm them and not much is handled. I really think a better system should be in place so we don't play musical patrons every time one goes inactive. Guilds shouldn't -have- to change to fit the active god of the week because the god that best suits a guild is without a player.

I'd much rather have assigned Celeni then do the above.

Areka

Celani trend a higher turnover than gods, and you're left with the -same issue- of overloading them. 

Kerryn

That's true.

I really wish we had Org liaison's that could submit what they want/need, then whichever god or celeni is able to, tend to it. I think that might help the situation, rather then force an ic change by bugging a god to rp and do a whole arc just because a GM needs X done.

Stathan

The issues with any of the suggested ideas so far, as a whole, outweigh the benefits.

Say you change the guilds RP as a whole to better match with a new divine patron that will end up having upwards of 2 or 3 other guilds switch due to that particular divine being active. The deity is no longer able to give the much wanted 1 on 1 RP that people like to attribute a Patron with. Okay, so  the deity gets swamped and can't do much other than spam blessing around and get to as many problems as they can before either turn over or exasperation sit in.

Okay, lets give the guild/city leader the ability do a ceremony and bless the guild/city by the Patron/Matron. You have that much down but the RP will still be lacking and each individual of the city will either feel like offering to the divine in question to make sure to be thankful for blessings or blow it off and just be happy they got a free one. Not much better than bouncing around deities in the RP department or with any of the various issues you might bring up.

No, I'm not saying either are bad ideas because hey, Slyphe isn't around and I still offer because that's my choice. You shouldn't have to change your RP to fit in with getting divine blessings to be -able- to bash or pk. They should just be a help. 

Feel free to insert everything wrong with my statement. I'm willing to hear whats said. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Areka

I think y'all are over-thinking how big of a change of RP such things need to be. You don't have to scrap and re-write your org's tenets or make really drastic aesthetic or core changes. 

"Our patron's quiet, let's see what we can learn from GodNew. They're about X, Y and Z. Our guild values are A, B and C. What can X, Y and Z offer us, or give insight to our own beliefs? Can they strengthen them as they are, or offer some new tools for us to become EVEN BETTER than we are right now? With some practice and exploration of GodNew, we might learn something, and might fine other neat things about ourselves." 

Edit: More fleshed out, from before the last retcon. 

Auresae's p. quiet and we could use some attention. Damariel's not around. Hey, that Dhar fellow's back and doing some cool things. He's about getting rid of Undead - hey, so are we! He's about Silence (reason, assessment, making informed decisions and acting with intention rather than emotion or ego.) - hey, we can learn something from that, since we're about honour and duty, and those are related. He's about Temperance - honing and working upon issues, our training, ourselves - that's kind of like this forging stuff t hat's our legacy and something we already practice some of. It might take us out of our comfort zone, but maybe we can see what we can learn and he can see what we're about. We can keep our values AND learn more, imagine that!

tl;dr Patrons provide opportunities for organizational development and growth on multiple fields. It's as much of an issue or drastic change as you let it/make it be. You can have it be a huge gamechanger for your org, or just a new avenue to explore its existing state. 

Arbre

The Gods acting as Patrons are much more of an OOC concern than an IC one.  Just because you change to a God that isn't perfectly fitting with the ideals of the guild, it doesn't mean you have to change it - the guild is not godorder2.0.  Most guilds have a clear cut Patron.  The Shamans are very, very tied to Haern, but I'll switch Gods if I know He's gone inactive - Their role is more to help us foster RP rather than foster RP FOR us (and it certainly isn't to bless the org - that assumption baffles me).  I'd make any of the lifer Gods Patron if Haern disappeared, and when He came back, I'd politely explain to the Patron that we'd like to go back to the appropriate God, thanks for all the fish.

Moirean

Alistaire said:

Some guilds have a God that fits them so perfectly, they shouldn't ever even consider changing Patron. (Teradrim/Ivoln. Templar, Daru and Luminaries/Auresae. Sentinels, Shamans/Haern.

I made Omei matron when I was Sentinel GM, partially because I wanted to emphatically kill the snuggling and partially because the Haern at the time refused to help the guild with OOC things like doors and NPCs once I won GM. There can be valid IC and OOC reasons to switch patron, and I don't think it's a game changer.

Corlin

Arbre said:

The Gods acting as Patrons are much more of an OOC concern than an IC one.  Just because you change to a God that isn't perfectly fitting with the ideals of the guild, it doesn't mean you have to change it - the guild is not godorder2.0.  Most guilds have a clear cut Patron.  The Shamans are very, very tied to Haern, but I'll switch Gods if I know He's gone inactive - Their role is more to help us foster RP rather than foster RP FOR us (and it certainly isn't to bless the org - that assumption baffles me).  I'd make any of the lifer Gods Patron if Haern disappeared, and when He came back, I'd politely explain to the Patron that we'd like to go back to the appropriate God, thanks for all the fish.

That's sort of the point I'm seeing, though.

That patronage shouldn't be such an ooc thing - and it is, and has to be, given the way current mechanics work. If your god is inactive, you're at a disadvantage.

Re: the blessing thing - I'm not sure it's such an assumption as it is something that just exists. If you have an active patron, your orgs get blessed. If you don't, they don't. No one seems to randomly possess an inactive god and bless the orgs or order. Even doing that on some level would be nice. Largely because inactivity is almost never actually handled in character - Auresae, Omei, and Damariel are gone. So far as I know, there was no real sign that they were going to be.

I completely understand changing to an active god to get the benefits attached to it, and to explore the role play avenues that can exist in interacting with a different god than the one that suits your flavor - I do not feel that it should be something you have to do to level the field. Inactive gods don't have any sort of presence in game at all, and that puts a giant gulf between those who've got a connection to an inactive god, and those whose patron is around.

Moirean

Now I'm going to flip what I said from my last post and point out that you really don't need to change patron if you don't want to. 

Since I've been back, Carnifex have gotten blessings from other divine as many times as they've gotten blessings from Iosyne. There's nothing stopping other gods from favoring orgs they don't patron.

As for the OOC stuff, I had Slyphe do most of the coding stuff I needed when I was Sentinel GM and he wasn't the org's patron. He just responded quickly to messages and was better at coding. I had darkie gods help me when I was a herald in Enorian with minor issues like doors needing keys or mobs being funky. I've communicated with Maghak about new city quests, even though Niuri is Spinesreach's matron. 

Regarding RP, I know that the several events we've had with Carnifex haven't been done by Iosyne, but by other gods (mostly because they were the ones going hey, what have you broken with this). The new mob message system lets us, as players, fairly seamlessly nudge for the org RP we want while letting any gods who are available hop in to handle it. I highly suggest using these messages if you want to do RP things with your guild which need divine help for mob interaction, etc.

Maybe I'm just shameless, but I'll happily talk to anyone I can to get things done for the orgs I'm in.

Dhar

Everyone in Pools has a pretty busy schedule. That said, I'm pretty sure none of us are going to totally blow you off if you send someone a message asking for help just because a God isn't the designated Patron.

Really, assigning a God as a Patron can be as big or small a deal as you and your guild would like it to be. In its current incarnation, I personally feel that it's just a method for a guild to show its support for a divine.

edit: At the risk of opening up the floodgates, I'm generally unopposed to helping orgs out with small projects, events or (good) ideas if your designated helper isn't being helpful. So, there's that.

Iosyne

Echoing what Dhar said. Many of us pick up events for orgs we're not ICly connected to, either because someone noticed they needed help, or they just had a great event idea of their own to execute.

Corlin

This still doesn't touch on the whole 'gulf/void when your divine is inactive' aspect, even if it is really quite comforting to have representatives of the Pools reinforce the point that it's not like you're frozen in carbonite when it comes to getting some things done.

If I start offering all my essence to Damariel and pouring out some of my grog in his honour, is someone gonna gimmie a favor in his name?

Moirean

That's why you offer to all the gods you can. :P I cycle among the darkie gods to ensure I have as much favor uptime as possible.

Haven

Unless I'm mistaken... Divine favors are a privilege, not a right.

Ciarelle

To be honest, guys, I'm not sure how you're really missing out on that many blessings anyhow. I know a lot of the blessings etc. Ciarelle gets are not actually guild-based at all but bestowed upon the congregation or the city.

Corlin

Haven said:

Unless I'm mistaken... Divine favors are a privilege, not a right.

Yes.

One you don't get from your patron if they don't have a player. Which is why this topic was created.

Teani

I think what @Haven meant was that even if the Patron is active, you can't expect blessings, since it's up to the Divine when and to whom they want to hand those out.

Sure, there might be a better chance for you to get a Blessing if the guild Patron is active, but that's equal to being in a City with active Divine in the advisory, a Congregation/Order of an active Divine or simply offering to an active Divine all on your own.

Edit: Basically it's up to you how to curry favor with someone to -try- to get Blessings. Don't depend on organizations for it.

Rivas

And just...don't -expect- them, really. Not ever. That's not the point of them, y'know?

Alexina

I personally feel like blessings should not provide as substantial bonus as they do.

5% cutting/blunt reduction and +1 con or something like that would be enough. The skill increase still helps out people that aren't transcended in their skills yet, and there'd be less of a gap between blessed and unblessed people in combat.

I also think it'd be awesome if blessings you were given would be added after each other instead of using up several blessings at the same time.

Daskalos

Rivas said:

And just...don't -expect- them, really. Not ever. That's not the point of them, y'know?

The problem is the game has become balanced with all possible avenues - including blessings - taken into account. Without a blessing, you're fighting at a disadvantage unless the other person also is lacking. The administration has spoiled us by giving them out so frequently, but they also had to be taken into consideration for balancing because of the frequency. This is why I have wanted the +1 crystal amulet to not stack with blessings instead of artifacts, so that we don't have to 'play the game' of offering to gods other than our own just to hope we ping the blessing script and get a blessing so we can be on even footing.

 

Also, I'm wary of changing blessings right now, considering the warmth change that already went in. I'm loathe to make people more squishy on the lower end than they already are.

Alexina

Could just make it so that boons give 5% damage reduction and +1 con, and blessings give an additional +5% damage reduction and +1 to the rest of the stats.

Boons would give half the bonus then (which most people have access to via city cardinals), and there would be less of a gap between blessed and unblessed fighters.

Dhar

It's an imperfect system and there's definitely room for improvement. Right now, though, there's always a couple active spirit Gods and a couple active shadow Gods, so blessings should usually be attainable.

There's nothing stopping you from roleplaying a totally devout priest who only serves/offers to one inactive God - I think the people who do this are pretty cool. After years and years of silence maybe some questions would start popping up.. 'would my God be angry/jealous if I temporarily offered to someone with a stronger presence?' etc.

You're probably not going to see puppet-Gods being used only as blessing dispensers because usually there's some vague IG reason established as to why a God isn't present in the realm - even if you're not aware of it yourself.

Arbre

I'm an Aure OH.  At one point I flat out told Her that I'm offering to Dhar because Edhain told me He needed the essence and She was like okay, cool, no problem.

Edit: As long as your own Patron isn't lacking, I don't see a reason not to offer to Another.

Angwe

Didn't Haern encourage us to offer to Dhar during that first little round of order wars back when Dhar's order had like... one combatant?