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The "Abuse of a Factory"
[quote]
I've made this its own thread since I don't want it clogging up discussion in the Ankyrean Anguish thread.
- The existing rooms are vastly more advanced than even the things we've seen in Albedos. Sophisticated assembly lines, automation, and the above implication of creating robots.
- The room names do not follow building standards, being written in title case.
- Given that the altered room was a building, the city rooms outside of it still make references to the old greenhouse, which is bound to be confusing to any newbie who can't understand what happened.
[/quote]
Firstly it is no surprise to me that once again when change is actually given to Spinesreach to give it the representation that it was meant to have, rather than the quasi shadow-nature-life-death-neutral theme it has been nurturing, that a sudden uproar would assume.
As no one can deny, Spinesreach is considered the least important and general backwater of the cities, having no focused theme, no prospects of "goals" and no overall RP. It attempted to play the role of "Neutrality" which in all itself tends to lead to confusion, mixes of alignments, mixes of classes, and generally bad game RP. With the latest changes in Spinesreach that saw it become a Republic and Senate (thank god for trashing the Ankyrean Conclaves theme), and then later the recent advances with Albedos in research and technology, the plan was to continue further on this route.
The removal of a player's beloved self-made greenhouse (1 of 3 in spinesreach might I add) was the first step to giving Spinesreach a much more darker theme and role, that of Industry. Spinesreach was placed in the alignment of "Shadow" yet had almost nothing that endorsed this. Simply tossing classes in there does -not- make it suddenly sinister. Spinesreach has been a mess in design for years, and when finally 1 person says "okay let's clean it up" the usual lax ones that sit back and do nothing get bothered that someone is causing dust with the sweeping and ask administration to make them stop? How is that even allowed that a non-citizen that has nothing to even do with the city gets a say in its advances?
I presented the concept of Industry as a continuation with the reformations in Spinesreach to -finally- give Spinesreach some character. The metalworks factory in itself was the first step in this, also from the impact I saw it cause in those that support nature, it did exactly what was needed, to cause lifers to have a solid resentment for Spinesreach. As for my design, there was -nothing- and I repeat -nothing- that was out of the context already presented from Albedos. The entire constructs were clockwork in design, there were steam-powered devices as seen in Albedos as well, and the "heart machine" was nothing but pipes, fumes and a roaring fire in the center. The "Mechanized constructs facility" was if nothing a redescription of something that has ALREADY EXISTED IN THE GAME. Spinesreach has 3 robots that are -already in it-, and even has 2 portal machines that teleport players around...and -now- people feel that it is against game mechanics? If some had waited to see the mechanized construct facility's description, they would have seen only large broken golems showing that the Spineans have been attempting to replicate the designs but failing miserably.
For all that hard work to finally give Spinesreach some character and actual dark role to be reverted because 1 player complained that their beloved greenhouse was being removed (something that shouldnt even be in a dark Spinesreach), then I dare say I give up trying. Let's enjoy stagnancy since at least no one gets crap thrown at them that way and is left alone.
I would like your thoughts on why the revert when everything in the factory was actually done per already existing mechanics, @Razmael.
Comments
Nothing you wrote is valid within the setting.
Here's a hint. Spinesreach is not steampunk. The extent of their cogs'n'pipes technology is a giant foghorn. You've taken the liberty of putting in a bunch of poorly researched, poorly conceptualized machinery that is way outside the established tech and you didn't bother to run it past the people responsible for maintaining the game lore before putting it in.
Take this up with Razmael if you really are convinced you're being abused. The reality is that you aren't, and given that the thread already made on the topic was closed, the forums aren't the place to sook about it.
You also need to proofread your descriptions, they were full of nonsensical phrasing and bad typos.
Calipso:
I think it's great that people are putting in effort in making changes that'll turn Aetolia into a better and more intriguing place. Even if this particular idea doesn't make it into the game, please don't stop trying to change things to the better.
Complaining that Razmael didn't talk to Calipso before removing it is invalid because Calipso should have been in touch with the Gods and the cityleaders prior to putting the room designs in place. If she had been, it wouldn't have gotten this far.
Before you decide that this is a matter of people hating on Calipso for no reason, consider how many things were ignored or bypassed in the process of putting these rooms into the game.
If anything this all seems like the pout-fest by someone who got grumpy seeing their dream of "green spinesreach" replaced, rather than the idea of renovating a building without full consent.
Edit: Im still surprised a player saw the need to rush to the forums, make a new thread complaining about a changed building in a city they are not even part of and were enemied to, and asked for administrative help to remove it rather than contact the city officials of said city. It all seems childish
Calipso, you're building a strawman with the 'beloved greenhouse', 'dream of green spinesreach' and 'one player who was even enemied' BS.
When vampires are having babies, it's an issue for the entire game and the forums are an appropriate place to bring it up for discussion. It's an issue that concerns the fabric of the game's internal narrative.
When Spinesreach is suddenly building tech that's never been seen on the rest of the continent and people are finding it jarring, it is exactly as appropriate to bring it up to the entire community for comment.
When you make RADICAL changes to a city without getting lots of important people on-board first, you'd better be one hell of a magnificent bastard, or you're going to have a bad time (such as the present).
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
The interesting thing is, you're attempting to add a layer of IC on top of what is an already OOC temper tantrum. When it comes down to it how do you know non-citizens were involved at all?
There is no "green Spinesreach" dream. There is a dream for a cohesive city that makes sense in the realm of Aetolia. Most cities wouldn't willingly have a foundry/factory dead in the middle of the city. And on top of that it assumes a level of technology that does not exist in Aetolia anyway. I understand Moirean was giving you a chance and all that, that's fine. What I have a problem with is that you apparently have no clue what industry is in the scope of Aetolia's timeline and this development change just showed that off to everyone.
The thing that I think people are annoyed about is not that the divine should have approved it, but instead that you didn't run it by the city council. Or if you did, then the city council lacked enough understanding about the theme of Spinesreach that they thought it was a good fit. As Moirean pointed out, that sort of thing would be death sentence for a normal city. However, as a counterpoint just based on what I understand of Aetolia, would work really well for Bloodloch. I mean, its a city full of people already dead who don't need to breathe. Toxic fumes and whatnot wouldn't have much impact on them. And hell, they're already near a volcano.
I guess what I'm saying is, what could have been an interesting bit of RP (Spines setting up a metal foundry/factory down river or something), wasn't explored. Instead it was just "screw it, gonna change the city." And that's a shame, because at this point you've burned through the goodwill extended to you and that will make your future attempts at change a bit more unlikely to happen.
Regarding your edit, I think the player wasn't asking for the Divine to come in and fix your mess. I think the player was asking for a view ow how to deal with something like this in the future, and in addition how much is too much. IE, if I'm in Duiran and want to build an large sawmill on the edge, where do you draw the line of what is appropriate.
Also, in your attempt at a potshot, I don't think it was Lin's greenhouse. It was probably Phoe's or Orisae's. So you might want to consider the facts before you start throwing whiny little jabs like that out there to try and win points.
Do the changes/additions fit in with the surroundings thematically? Do they fit in with the game as a whole? Does its placement make sense? How much is it going to cost? It's usually never a problem because even though there are no hardline rules, the playerbase has generally accepted that there are some things you can do and certain liberties you can take, but there are lines that are drawn, even if not explicitly stated. Players know they're there, and are usually quick to rein things in if they're out of line. That's usually why it's important to let the ruling council know EXACTLY what you're doing and how things will look - even if vaguely - so that there aren't any unwanted surprises further down the line. Is it an inconvenience? Maybe, but it's kind of important for quality control because unlike mortal builders, you don't have an admin reviewing your work before stuff gets put in.
If you think about it, technology has been around in the game since the Dreikathi showed up. Clockwork thingies has returned to to Aetolia, and did a long time ago with the Clockwork messenger bats and the other clockwork animals you can buy in Delve. I don't know how the flying ships were flying, but I am sure there's some sort of technology involved in that as well.
However, you can' just build a factory without having the backup for it. Spend fifty years in Delve, dissembling clockwork animals and putting them back together and you might be able to put up a small clockwork animal factory. But to have a big factory pop up just like that, with no real direction or story behind it, it just doesn't work. The idea of broken down golems is a good one, but there's no history or even any rumors of Spinesreach doing anything like that, so why the big factory?
This is something that -could- be done, but it would take centuries to come even a small part. Don't stop dreaming about the future though. Start the rp at small scale now and if the game happen to move in the same direction as you, it might actually work out. And that really goes for any bigger ideas people might have for the game. Just look at the Ascendrils. Does anyone even know how long it took for them to actually become a Guild of their own, after they split from the Magi?
So, in short: It can be done, but you need focused ideas, be prepared to fight for it for many rl years and then maybe, just maybe, it will happen. But even if the chances are slim, don't stop hoping and don't stop working.
Just want to point out that just because you have a clockwork messenger bat or one of the minipets from delve does not mean that the species and people on sapience understand and can make clockwork devices. Further, there's not really any evidence that the people of delve would let foreigners study their technology for any extended amount of time.