Team Combat Waaaagh

Xavin

While I agree to some extent that those should be included in lifer-side movement options, they're higher risk than your lure and lust by their very nature. Convocation requires the rite to be laid in both places, neckdrag and sentinel drag both require the lycan/sentinel to enter the room to perform and, correct me if I'm wrong, the sentinel drag requires the target be prone.

There's definitely a disparity in range and movement abilities and I think anyone that doesn't recognize that is either blinding themselves to the facts of the matter, is trolling, or simply doesn't get it. That said, I'm honestly not certain what solutions can be offered without creating copies of various abilities on both sides.

Also, if we're going to say that 'telepathy is king of ranged combat and both classes are on the life side', ignoring the fact that monk is a very popular class on -both- sides of the game, then we have to ignore artifact bows and syssin on the life side. That said, I'm not willing to do so because assessing balance requires assessing the whole picture.

Seir

Don't think this thread is going to go anywhere so I'm just going to say: agree to disagree. Nothing but conjecture can really be posted. I'm just going to be reading responses after this post.

If we drop Convocation in your room, a Cabalist can just kill the Rite. I'm unsure if other classes now have the ability to kill Rites. Cabalist might be the only one now.

Xavin said:

While I agree to some extent that those should be included in lifer-side movement options, they're higher risk than your lure and lust by their very nature. Convocation requires the rite to be laid in both places, neckdrag and sentinel drag both require the lycan/sentinel to enter the room to perform and, correct me if I'm wrong, the sentinel drag requires the target be prone.

There's definitely a disparity in range and movement abilities and I think anyone that doesn't recognize that is either blinding themselves to the facts of the matter, is trolling, or simply doesn't get it. That said, I'm honestly not certain what solutions can be offered without creating copies of various abilities on both sides.

Also, if we're going to say that 'telepathy is king of ranged combat and both classes are on the life side', ignoring the fact that monk is a very popular class on -both- sides of the game, then we have to ignore artifact bows and syssin on the life side. That said, I'm not willing to do so because assessing balance requires assessing the whole picture.

Xavin pretty much hit the nail on the head and summed up all that needs to be said. He has played on both sides of the game for an extended period of time with the same character so his accountability is pretty strong compared to me that has only alted on shadow or the time I played Seir on shadow for a brief stint. Still, the skill disparity is still not hard to notice.

Angwe

Sentinel drag does require a proned target, hence the requisite charge. Sciomancers and Teradrim have a counter that makes them immune to being dragged, even while prone. I don't know the names of the respective abilities, however.

Xavin

As I was walking over to retrieve my lunch from the lunchroom I was thinking this whole thing over. And it occurred to me that only a few skills have really caused as much controversy as ye olde lure and doppie/lust. The two that stick out in my mind are doppie/hangedman which was recently nerfed and, of course, golgotha.

Once upon a time (a few years back) golgotha was the source of much controversy. The skill functioned much as it does now, but with a few differences. For one, it only hit people on the necromancer's enemy list. On top of that, I believe, it did not go away with the death of the necromancer (though I may be remembering incorrectly there). What this meant was that only one side of the game had to deal with the team-breaker that was pit. And the side that could wield it could do so to great effect, what with abilities that stripped levitation en-mass.

The first thing that was done to try and fix the disparity was a complete change to the skill. It was made to summon golgotha himself if he was not currently on-plane. Alternatively it would summon a random pit demon. Golgotha himself was vastly overpowered, dealing rapid high-ish damage and limb breaks, facilitating the use of vivisect to great effect. The other pit demons, while not as powerful as golgotha, were still very strong. Naturally, this did not last and pit was reverted to its former use.

Eventually, though, a change was made. Pit was made to hit everyone in the room equally. What happened the first few times it was used, you might ask? It completely tore apart the undeath-side team that tried to use it. It seems that 'just sip levitation' wasn't exactly as easy as it sounds. However, pit has existed in that form since and really isn't the subject of much controversy anymore.

What's the point of this diatribe? I'm getting there. You see, sometimes abilities need to be changed because they have too great an effect on one side of the game's ability to compete and/or artificially boost the capabilities of one side of the game more than it needs to be. In the interest of balance changes often need to be made to skills so that both sides of the game have as even a starting point as possible to make conflict fun and engaging for all players. That's what happened with golgotha. And the controversy over the ability died off very, very quickly.

I'm of the opinion that the skill 'lure' in mentis may well need to be evaluated for the same reasons. It is, in essence, a ranged hinder ability in its current state, regardless of the intention behind it. In addition, I feel that lust may warrant an evaluation as well. Not because I have it out for those classes, because I really don't, but because it seems to me that hindering on that level shouldn't be possible across a whole area outside of telepathy which has its own very specific requirements.

Toz

Quit making me want to play monk again, ugh.

Xavin

Angwe said:

Sentinel drag does require a proned target, hence the requisite charge. Sciomancers and Teradrim have a counter that makes them immune to being dragged, even while prone. I don't know the names of the respective abilities, however.

Ascendril have it too. For mages it is the grounding vibe. I believe the Teradrim ability you mention is the steadfast reflex in animation. In addition, luminaries have the focus rite which does a similar effect.

Edit: I accidentally a whole sentence.

Moirean

Angwe said:

Sentinel drag does require a proned target, hence the requisite charge. Sciomancers and Teradrim have a counter that makes them immune to being dragged, even while prone. I don't know the names of the respective abilities, however.

The charge itself prones and you can drag before the person is able to stand. The current iteration of the skill is basically a guaranteed movement (versus old charge/impale) unless the exit is blocked (and the charge itself on a blocker will stop the blocking, as I believe being prone stops you from blocking...or it should!) or you hit a tick of gravehands (or yes, you try it on someone you can't trip). 

Moirean

One thing I get a strong feeling for, having played both sides, is that Lifers are better suited for defensive situations, whereas darkies do better at attacking a holed-up base. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not. I think this works pretty awesomely from a thematic approach, but it obviously isn't ideal for balanced combat.

Tsunami w/ flood + aquasphere, convocation/warding/selective trapping laid along incoming routes, (what is left of) groves, telepathy (wrench on moving targets who don't have monos; forced area departure as the counter to mind lock pretty much screams that the ability is designed to be used to force people to shoo), etc

vs

Pit, doppies, lure, archery, quake, etc

You guys can fill in the rest. I think each side has their strengths and weaknesses and that there are disparities, but it's not a simple "this side is better in all situations" sort of answer.

Calipso

Xavin said:

While I agree to some extent that those should be included in lifer-side movement options, they're higher risk than your lure and lust by their very nature. Convocation requires the rite to be laid in both places, neckdrag and sentinel drag both require the lycan/sentinel to enter the room to perform and, correct me if I'm wrong, the sentinel drag requires the target be prone.

Also, if we're going to say that 'telepathy is king of ranged combat and both classes are on the life side', ignoring the fact that monk is a very popular class on -both- sides of the game, then we have to ignore artifact bows and syssin on the life side. That said, I'm not willing to do so because assessing balance requires assessing the whole picture.

  Sentinels can charge in, impale, and drag someone out all in 1 combo (literally, no balance recovery needed) and mass does not counter this (one of the very few force-movements that does). It, alongside Shaman vines, are two forced movements the lifers have that bypass mass. The only way to counter Sentinel is to have a shield up, and shaman by icewalls. Sentinels also have axegrab.

There are very few to almost no monks on Shadow side. Aside from the Daru which would be thematically impossible, the Sentaari have been very heavy-handed to whom they give apprenticeship upon the Shadow side, requirements including not being enemied to Duiran for example. The only way these days a monk will be on the Shadow side is if they left lifer. Syssin does not have this issue.

Seir said:

If we drop Convocation in your room, a Cabalist can just kill the Rite. I'm unsure if other classes now have the ability to kill Rites. Cabalist might be the only one now.

Cabalist deflection cannot target Convocation. Nor can Steady for Teradrim.


Anything else?

Toz

Syssin definitely has this issue, or at least should/can have the issue of 'darkies only'. Also, I'm fairly sure that Teradrim can destroy all rites, while Cabalists are limited to only rites/vibes that are attacking them.

EDIT: Additionally, neckdrag does the same thing as drag (lycanthropy) and Carnifex's hammer swat bypasses mass, is only stopped by walls/blockers/focus aura. Neckdrag, like drag (I think?) is stopped by flooding/icewalls/etc. If you get axegrabbed it's your own fault for not having mass up. Lure is far stronger than shaman's thing, because it can be used from x rooms away, and I believe it even bypasses area boundaries - it requires writhing to cure, and can be stacked repeatedly to lock someone down. And let's not forget direcall, lust, mind wrench (you guys have at least three monks that I can think of), plus adduction vibe. Anything else?

Ilyon

Teradrim can't remove convocation rites.

Xavin

@calipso basically, what Toz said. Even -if- the guild is being heavy-handed in denying shadow side characters monk, there are still going to be ways to get it. I've heard that the syssin are being fairly heavy handed in denying class to spirit side players, so it's the same sort of situation.

Basically, two skills that bypass mass do not make up for the disparity.

Edit: And if the major requirement is not being an enemy of Duiran...well, the vast bulk of the shadow side is eligible! It's not like we enemy every shadow-side character, no exceptions.

Toz

Ilyon said:

Teradrim can't remove convocation rites.

Seems more like a bug than a feature, but I don't really recall convocation being all that dangerous either - doesn't it just pull you if you aren't massed, and strip it if you are?

Xavin

That's correct, @Toz.

Angwe

Edit: Let me remove some of the snark from this, it isn't necessary.

Calipso said:

Sentinels can charge in, impale, and drag someone out all in 1 combo (literally, no balance recovery needed)

While a Sentinel who charges in can go for an impale, there is very little reason to. Most people will immediately writhe out of this, and you can't drag while impaling. Furthermore, there is a balance cost associated with each of the abilities mentioned. Charge balance for a  Dexterous Sentinel is 1.00 seconds. Drag balance is 1.72 seconds. Dhuriv Impale balance is 3.44 seconds.

Calipso said:

 The only way to counter Sentinel is to have a shield up, and shaman by icewalls. Sentinels also have axegrab.

Mass counters Woodlore Grab and flood counters a Charge unless (I'm not sure on this one) the Sentinel has an artifact that allows them to run on water. Zepher?

Calipso

Angwe said:

 The only way to counter Sentinel is to have a shield up, and shaman by icewalls. Sentinels also have axegrab.

Again, wrong. Mass counters axegrab and flood counters charging unless the Sentinel has an artifact that allows them to run on water (maybe). Learn. Your. Shit.

Kerryn

Calipso said:

There are very few to almost no monks on Shadow side. Aside from the Daru which would be thematically impossible, the Sentaari have been very heavy-handed to whom they give apprenticeship upon the Shadow side, requirements including not being enemied to Duiran for example. The only way these days a monk will be on the Shadow side is if they left lifer. Syssin does not have this issue.

Mazzion, Aoi, Klonk, Borscin, Xentor, Lyl, Dourif (I Think) and I know I'm missing a few others. Some of them may not be active currently, but there are more then a couple! They just choose not to use the class for whatever reason.

As for apprenticing. Yup, we are heavy-handed about it. Because it goes against the guilds beliefs to help the undead. Being enemied to Duiran has -nothing- to do with it. Despite all this, there is still the occasional apprenticeship that happens under the table. Neutral class does not equal neutral guild.

Moirean

Xavin said:

@calipso basically, what Toz said. Even -if- the guild is being heavy-handed in denying shadow side characters monk, there are still going to be ways to get it. I've heard that the syssin are being fairly heavy handed in denying class to spirit side players, so it's the same sort of situation.

AND TO SHADOW SIDE.

Daskalos

This last battle, convocation was mildly useful for the first time ever.

 

Warding now hits everyone, not just enemies, thanks to a nerf, so other than 1 on Many situations, it's not nearly as useful as piety. Now, if you wanna let me piety + warding... :P

Moirean

Convocation has always been useful. It's just before, it relied on some fairly devotion-heavy setups with allsight/piety/firewall stacked and warding in adjacent rooms. And usually an instant grab trigger. I've convocated enemies out of their groups into our teams many times before, but it was a much more pre-planned defense like pre-trapping an area and it's better suited for things like lessers and warfare where there is a pretty visible route the enemies would be travelling on.

The new change makes it a lot more potent - still curious if you can use it with 2 in one room. If so, that's potentially pretty darn OP if you coordinate triggers (allsight makes that nice and easy).

Illikaal

Kerryn said:

Calipso said:

There are very few to almost no monks on Shadow side. Aside from the Daru which would be thematically impossible, the Sentaari have been very heavy-handed to whom they give apprenticeship upon the Shadow side, requirements including not being enemied to Duiran for example. The only way these days a monk will be on the Shadow side is if they left lifer. Syssin does not have this issue.

Mazzion, Aoi, Klonk, Borscin, Xentor, Lyl, Dourif (I Think) and I know I'm missing a few others. Some of them may not be active currently, but there are more then a couple! They just choose not to use the class for whatever reason.

As for apprenticing. Yup, we are heavy-handed about it. Because it goes against the guilds beliefs to help the undead. Being enemied to Duiran has -nothing- to do with it. Despite all this, there is still the occasional apprenticeship that happens under the table. Neutral class does not equal neutral guild.

To add to that list. Cariv, Mazzion, Aoi, Klonk, Borscin, Xentor, Lyl, Sryaen, Dourif, Darliea, Yettave, Tralendar, Ison, Jeromy. Tyrak had it before joining Duiran. Haydyn did as well. Ellenia had it, but dropped it for more easymode classes. Saying 'there's no Monks on the darky side' is absurd, considering that Spinesreach and Bloodloch were the ones that got Kai choke and Mind crush nerfed into the ground. Like Kerryn said, they may not be active anymore, but there's plenty of people over there that have it. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm even missing a few more.

@Calipso: I don't understand why you just can't grasp the reality that 9/10 ten times, you're wrong simply because you don't do your homework. The people who bother doing their homework, and obviously know what they're doing considering you keep failing when you fight them, keep trying to explain to you how things work, and how they are. Instead you always plug your ears with your notorious LALALA NOPE I ARE WRITE AND YOU IS WRUNG HUR HUR replies. Icewalls and flooding will stop most movement related abilities, including Sentinel related ones. But, as long as you keep maintaining the mentality that you have now, as I'm sure you will, you'll always remain at the utmost bottom tier of combat. 

Daskalos

@Moirean - You can only convocate from your own rite.  It has it's uses, but the option chosen was actually my least favorite. I wanted to replace it with a lure similar ability, but with a much higher devotion cost. Let the dark side see how much it sucks when it's used against them

Moirean

No what I mean is, drop 2 rites. Allsight shows someone enter, both people trigger convocation. The first will strip mass, the second will drag. Pretty much unable to be stopped. Why am I telling you this I am totally getting convocaptured next group fight  -_-

Daskalos

Should be possible, theoretically. And yea, so using this tactic. Don't stand in my rite!

Moirean

Your signature is so evil and fitting right now. -_-

Serrice

At least in the Duiran department, our fighting Luminaries seemed to have gone AWOL.

Hadoryu

That's the ONLY way to use convocation. I mean, mass stops it. Even then, you have to 1) know your target is going to move through that area, 2) be able to go to the appropriate room and set up the firewall and rites (which don't last all too long), 3) have much faster ping than the person/people you're trying to get.

It works once in a blue moon and more as a function of it coming as a surprise to the enemy. You start using it often, people will stop walking through firewalls.

Serrice

Convocation got changed so it strips mass Hado.

Hadoryu

I guess that means that it can be used via double rites with two people using it to summon one victim now ... Which still means getting two different people to put it down on top of the enemy, I guess? And I gather shield still stops it anyway. So I gather that's a second way to use it, kind of? Doesn't seem very plausible to me I guess.

Daskalos

Shield doesn't stop it, only mass does.